bush is angry...

jsand

Open wrote:

Keep on posting dude...you prove my point with every post. What you leave out above is the 90% of the bombings are by FORIGN insurgents. Keep posting, you're only helping people see what kind mindset put this nation where its at.

Talk about ignoring truth. THE MAJORITY OF INSURGENTS ARE THOUGHT TO BE IRAQI AND SUNNI.

Moreover, the proportion of foreign fighters in the insurgency is widely considered to be less than 10%. Who is ignoring the truth here, huh?

Oh, and way to misconstrue, or intentionally alter, this statement:

...although the US military said in May 2006 that 90% of suicide bombers used by Iraq's former al-Qaeda leader, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, were from outside Iraq."

Get it? 90% of the suicide bombers used by al-Zarqawi. Not 90% of the bombings.

Keep on twisting the facts to suit your needs, and I'll keep on calling you on it.

aNiMaL

Jsand, can you really justify in your own mind that we are in Iraq for A) to protect the freedom of our country...and that Iraq originally had anything to do with the war on terror?

How people can not see clearly that the war in Iraq was a huge blunder of a mistake on the Bush administration is beyond me.

And how you can not see that our constant presence in Iraq fuels the zealot’s anger and hate towards the west....hence creates more terrorist than curbs it.

jlew24asu

aNiMaL wrote:

How people can not see clearly that the war in Iraq was a huge blunder of a mistake on the Bush administration is beyond me.

given you think its a huge blunder, what would/should we do now?

i'm all for creating an exit plan and send all of our troops back to afgahanistan and finish off the taliban and el queda.

I also think it is the US's responsiblity to help build a decomcractic Iraq by building a police/military force, assist in infrastucure, schools, technology, etc.

Abuskedti

jsand wrote:

This makes no sense at all. What do you mean he "works to keep the country safe for the murders to continue"? It is as evil as slavery or the holocaust? No, it's not. If the American army were systematically exterminating Iraqi citizens (holocaust), or using them to perform work under physical duress (slavery), you might have a point, but you know full well that the vast majority of deaths in Iraq are the result of Iraqi-on-Iraqi violence, or at least Muslim-on-Muslim violence. So, your comparisons ring very, very false.

What I know is that criminals run fearless accross Iraq killing people because we wiped out their military and their government. I also know that we are staying and killing any group that becomes large enough before they can establish anything. We are purposely preventing Iraqis from establishing a hold on their own country while protecting the very small group that is doing it the way we want.

The rest of the country is in a free for all civil war. A horrible civil war that can not end, because we kill anyone that winds up winning a little.

The death in Iraq is on our hands - it continues every day - and we not only sit back and allow it - we throw fuel on it.

It is an atorcity - a genocide by a new method.

our intentions are not genocide exactly - the genocide that results from our actions is of no concern to us.

The only difference from killing them ourselves is that we have a vail over it and an excuse - and a lame excuse at that.

aNiMaL

jlew24asu wrote:

given you think its a huge blunder, what would/should we do now?

i'm all for creating an exit plan and send all of our troops back to afgahanistan and finish off the taliban and el queda.

I also think it is the US's responsiblity to help build a decomcractic Iraq by building a police/military force, assist in infrastucure, schools, technology, etc.

Well, "staying the course" certainly isn't the answer. We need to get Iraq on their own two feet and get the hell out of there and get our troops in Afghanistan where they should have been the whole time.

But, admitting that the Bush administration fucked this up and that he had an ulterior motive to go to Iraq and finish his daddy’s war from moment one of his administration and purposefully and maliciously took advantage of a vulnerable country after a horrible attack by terrorist just to fuel his own agenda, is only for accountability reasons. Every damn ID10T who voted for him, especially the second time has this on their hands. And as a nation, we will be paying for this guy’s mistakes for many, many years to come. I sure as hell hope we as a country don’t screw the pooch again like that.

Open

jsand wrote:

Talk about ignoring truth. THE MAJORITY OF INSURGENTS ARE THOUGHT TO BE IRAQI AND SUNNI.

Moreover, the proportion of foreign fighters in the insurgency is widely considered to be less than 10%. Who is ignoring the truth here, huh?

Oh, and way to misconstrue, or intentionally alter, this statement:

...although the US military said in May 2006 that 90% of suicide bombers used by Iraq's former al-Qaeda leader, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, were from outside Iraq."

Get it? 90% of the suicide bombers used by al-Zarqawi. Not 90% of the bombings.

Keep on twisting the facts to suit your needs, and I'll keep on calling you on it.

You're embarassing yourself, either way, say i am wrong and they are all from iraq...do you think they were bombing and killing innocent civilians BEFORE we went in there?

Cosmo

jlew24asu wrote:

given you think its a huge blunder, what would/should we do now?

i'm all for creating an exit plan and send all of our troops back to afgahanistan and finish off the taliban and el queda.

I also think it is the US's responsiblity to help build a decomcractic Iraq by building a police/military force, assist in infrastucure, schools, technology, etc.

...
Step 1. More boots.
To secure the entire country, you NEED more boots on the ground. More quality boots. This means that the inept, piece of shit 290,000 Iraqi boots need to be replaced with real soldiers.
Where do we get these soldiers? NATO.
How do we get these soldiers? Admit that we erred in our assessment, execution and follow-on sustainment of the whole Iraqi mess. Bush needs to stand up to the nation and the world and admit the mistakes and miscalculations and ask for assistance from the world community to help us recitfy our mistakes.
Step 2. Build a True Coalition.
Create a coalition of nations that includes the countries in the surrounding neighborhood. This would mean that we would have to convince the Arab nations to provide the go-between interface between the warring factions and the security forces. Arabs are the bes ones to turn to for police and local security. They already know the culture, language, religion and customs.
The European nations can provide both soldiers and aid workers, as well as reconstruction companies. The soldiers will provide security along the hostile borders and patrol Iraq's oil assets.
Step 3. ReBuild.
Eleminate Haliburton. This is just too controversial. Hire Japanese, Arabic, European and other U.S. companies instead.
Hire the local people. Put these guys to work, building their own country. Get rid of the assholes from Tennessee who are hire to drive the trucks and put the Iraqis in the drivers seats.
Rebuild the Iraqi security forces with nominal, not minimal trainning. You cannot expect a guy to go through a 2 week boot camp, then go out on patrol. We give our local cops better trainning. If needed, set up training outside the Iraqi borders and train them in surrounding countries.
ReBuild Iraq's political structure. This is what the U.N. is suppposed to do. Put their asses to work. Tell the Iraqis that is you have an armed wing of a political party, you will not be able to participate in the governing of their nation. The Al Sadr Shi'ite militia needs to be dis-armed.
Step 4. Pay the Bill.
The U.S. needs to fund it... all of it. This is our mess and we can't get out of it alone. We should not expect anyone else to pay for our mess, just as we should not be responsible for paying for someone else's mess. And bill THIS generation... not our kids and our grandkids. WE supported this mess... what kind of asshole makes a mess and expects his kids and grandkids to clean up?
...
The sooner we clean up this mess.... the sooner we can wash our hands of it.
It's not perfect... but, it's something. I haven't seen much from the Pro-Bush camp other than leaving all of the decisions up to him. and his decisions suck. Staying the course when the ship is headed for the rocks is not a good idea.

jsand

Open wrote:

You're embarassing yourself, either way, say i am wrong and they are all from iraq...do you think they were bombing and killing innocent civilians BEFORE we went in there?

Whether they would have been bombing and killing if we hadn't gone into Iraq is irrelevant, in my opinion. I still place the blame squarely on those engaged in the bombing and killing. That's the difference (one of many) between you and I.

hippiemom

jsand wrote:

Whether they would have been bombing and killing if we hadn't gone into Iraq is irrelevant, in my opinion. I still place the blame squarely on those engaged in the bombing and killing. That's the difference (one of many) between you and I.

Ummmm ... who started the bombing?

jsand

hippiemom wrote:

Ummmm ... who started the bombing?

I won't fall for that pathetic attempt at moral equivalence. Insugents started the intentional bombing of civilian targets.

Cosmo

jsand wrote:

I won't fall for that pathetic attempt at moral equivalence. Insugents started the intentional bombing of civilian targets.

...
Whether your kid is killed by a guy stepping onto a bus wearing a bomb laden vest... or as the result of an ordinance from an F-15 directed to take out the guy in the house across the street... you're going to be pissed off either way, right?

hippiemom

jsand wrote:

I won't fall for that pathetic attempt at moral equivalence. Insugents started the intentional bombing of civilian targets.

I won't fall for that pathetic attempt at equivocation in avoidance of the fact that the first bombs were dropped by us, and the first civilian deaths in this conflict were caused by us.

jlew24asu

aNiMaL wrote:

Well, "staying the course" certainly isn't the answer. We need to get Iraq on their own two feet and get the hell out of there and get our troops in Afghanistan where they should have been the whole time.

you are contradicting yourself. you dont want to stay the course but you want to stay and get iraq on their feet.

I believe "staying the course" and getting Iraq back on their feet is one in the same.

Keep in mind, i'm not here to cheerlead bush, I want some honest opinions on what to do NOW. we cant go back and change what happen. bashing bush doesnt solve the problem.

The Waiting Trophy Man

hippiemom wrote:

I won't fall for that pathetic attempt at equivocation in avoidance of the fact that the first bombs were dropped by us, and the first civilian deaths in this conflict were caused by us.

you might as well not respond to him. he doesn't even know what he's talking about. he's just looking for attention. best to ignore him altogether.

jlew24asu

hippiemom wrote:

I won't fall for that pathetic attempt at equivocation in avoidance of the fact that the first bombs were dropped by us, and the first civilian deaths in this conflict were caused by us.

so that makes it ok for insugents to TARGET innocent civillians?

hippiemom

aBoxOfFear wrote:

you might as well not respond to him. he doesn't even know what he's talking about. he's just looking for attention. best to ignore him altogether.

You're right, and I usually don't, but it's even more boring than usual at work today, so I'm amusing myself as best I can

hippiemom

jlew24asu wrote:

so that makes it ok for insugents to TARGET innocent civillians?

Wtf are you talking about? You've completely lost me. Please find the post where I said it's ok for insurgents to blow up civilians, because I'm fairly certain I've never said any such thing.

The Waiting Trophy Man

jlew24asu wrote:

so that makes it ok for insugents to TARGET innocent civillians?

you see!! you just can't recognize and accept the fact that AMERICANS started this war. you always flip it around and say "what about the insurgents??" you are unable to see any fault with your own country/government. you can do no wrong, in your opinion.

RainDog

jlew24asu wrote:

so that makes it ok for insugents to TARGET innocent civillians?

Bagdad wasn't full of civilians?

jsand

aBoxOfFear wrote:

you might as well not respond to him. he doesn't even know what he's talking about. he's just looking for attention. best to ignore him altogether.

I know exactly what I'm talking about, and fully enjoy pissing you off.