"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
Benjamin Franklin.
Or why he sent Mike McCready. . . .
I was an atheist until ten minutes ago, and then I heard the evenflow solo from NY 9.7.03.
It doesn't matter if you're male, female, or confused; black, white, brown, red, green, yellow; gay, lesbian; redneck cop, stoned; ugly; military style, doggy style; fat, rich or poor; vegetarian or cannibal; bum, hippie, virgin; famous or drunk-you're either an asshole or you're not!
Thats the pessimist's view. You could say that if all we had to believe in was ourselves and each other we might, as a species, get our act together and realise that we only get one life each, and we only have one planet to live it on, so we'd better make the most of it and stop trashing the place. . . rather than just saying 'the hell with it, I'm going somewhere better when I die anyway'
or we'd just say "to hell with it, There isn't anything else so why does it matter what I do on or to the earth?"
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
or we'd just say "to hell with it, There isn't anything else so why does it matter what I do on or to the earth?"
So, in essence, there really isn't any argument for or against based on that line of reasoning. Both can be good, and both can be twisted.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
So, in essence, there really isn't any argument for or against based on that line of reasoning. Both can be good, and both can be twisted.
Peace
Dan
That's what I wanted to get across. People have the choice to do the right thing in a world w/ and w/o faith. My guess is you'd have a few more people saying "screw it, I'm gonna do what I want"
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
That's what I wanted to get across. People have the choice to do the right thing in a world w/ and w/o faith. My guess is you'd have a few more people saying "screw it, I'm gonna do what I want"
Perhaps. And perhaps not. I think it roughly evens out anyway. Fanatics cancel out "fuck-its" more or less. But that's my opinion anyway.
And the key question is faith in what? We all have faith in alot of things. That's how we work, that's how society can exist. But if we're talking religious faith, I stand by my above statement. If not, then it's a different debate in itself.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
I appreciate your concern. Let me explain a little bit... I believe if the majority of human beings had only themselves and others to believe in, that this planet is "it" and there is nothing else that the majority would be out only for themselves and the violence and destruction would be much greater.
I guess you don't buy into the American culture????? From what I see and as it leaks up to here is that everybody is out for themselves and the one who has the biggest and most toys wins. And religion has nothing at all to do with that. So how do you blow that one off?
Having to believe that the Earth is the only thing would probably make people treat the big blue ball a little better. After all there is no proof of a heaven or an after life, except for books. So before you take that leap of blind faith into the realm of unproven existance. Maybe, just maybe you and others should look at the gift of life from mother Earth as just more than some meaningless existance of a passing of time before you get to the promised land.
Kind of like quitting smoking after you get lung cancer. Keep polluting the Earth and you won't have to believe in a god that created man in it's image just to kill the only planet that we know can sustain life. :rolleyes: Funny how people respected the Earth until somebody came up with that god given right to own pieces of it and sell it to the highest bidder. Which in turn took away the need for knowing your neighbour who would have helped you sustain a healthy life in exchange of prepacked garbage. Thank you god! For putting greed into the mix.
EDIT: So why is there shrinks to help solve weak minded people's problems? Shouldn't they or can't god answer all those questions. Religion = the crutch for weak people who can't get through life by themselves. You know the same people who go crazy from being in a room by themselves for more than a day.
EDIT: So why is there shrinks to help solve weak minded people's problems? Shouldn't they or can't god answer all those questions. Religion = the crutch for weak people who can't get through life by themselves. You know the same people who go crazy from being in a room by themselves for more than a day.
Interesting that you brought up this topic. It was the psychiatric profession that held out little hope for me but to take medication for the rest of my life to deal with my "genetic disorders". It was faith in the higher power I'd experienced that showed me each step on the path to the healing of numerous horrific disorders I had--disorders that the psychiatric profession view as an inborn flaw. Ultimately we need to pick and choose what works for us. For example, in my case, psychiatric help and medications were a crutch that helped me function enough to have left over energy to invest in the faith I needed in order to construct real and lasting change in my life. In the end, it's what we decide to make of it: "shrinks" can be viewed as a crutch, or faith can be viewed as a crutch. Whatever works for the individual is what is important.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Interesting that you brought up this topic. It was the psychiatric profession that held out little hope for me but to take medication for the rest of my life to deal with my "genetic disorders". It was faith in the higher power I'd experienced that showed me each step on the path to the healing of numerous horrific disorders I had--disorders that the psychiatric profession view as an inborn flaw. Ultimately we need to pick and choose what works for us. For example, in my case, psychiatric help and medications were a crutch that helped me function enough to have left over energy to invest in the faith I needed in order to construct real and lasting change in my life. In the end, it's what we decide to make of it: "shrinks" can be viewed as a crutch, or faith can be viewed as a crutch. Whatever works for the individual is what is important.
Thanks. The key here is that the only way it works is with a faith that goes beyond what science can tell us given what we know at this time. Going based on the science view, one is relegated to being "flawed" for life. Millions of people worldwide suffer because they believe what they are told.
edit: I'm referring to "genetically based" psychiatric conditions, specifically, here.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I like to think that many people have a "faith" that science will continue to uncover advancement upon advancement. I like to think that many people realize that all those advancements exist in possibilities and potential at this time, and it is the limits to our thinking at this time that makes it so that we cannot yet access future advancement. Those who will make such discoveries will do so based on a faith that they are possible and there to be found.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I like to think that many people have a "faith" that science will continue to uncover advancement upon advancement. I like to think that many people realize that all those advancements exist in possibilities and potential at this time, and it is the limits to our thinking at this time that makes it so that we cannot yet access future advancement. Those who will make such discoveries will do so based on a faith that they are possible and there to be found.
This is a fine line that you speak of.
A man who has faith in agriculture will be lucky to grow anything. A man who understands agriculture, however, can feed a town.
A man who has faith in agriculture will be lucky to grow anything. A man who understands agriculture, however, can feed a town.
Remember that in order to learn to understand agriculture, one begins with a faith that it can be done. If one believes that a lack of agriculture is all there is, they close their mind to understanding agriculture.
For example with psychiatry, when people put their faith in it's hands (science) they somehow seem to lose the perspective that there is much beyond what we know. Because we don't yet know or understand is VERY different than being that is does not exist.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Remember that in order to learn to understand agriculture, one begins with a faith that it can be done. If one believes that a lack of agriculture is all there is, they close their mind to understanding agriculture.
Hehe...the latter would require just as much "faith" as the former, angelica.
In order learn to understand agriculture, one begins with the knowledge that food grows and is produced by the earth. It continues with the understanding of how those things happen.
For example with psychiatry, when people put their faith in it's hands (science) they somehow seem to lose the perspective that there is much beyond what we know. Because we don't yet know or understand is VERY different than being that is does not exist.
You just stated the problem -- when people put faith in science they've demonstrated a lack of understanding of science's abilities and limitations as an objective pursuit based on human knowledge, not faith-based potential. It's no different than asking your brain surgeon why he doesn't just do a brain transplant because, hey, it should work, right?
All good science puts evidence before understanding, whereas all good faith puts understanding before evidence. Faith is an unreasonable short-cut to knowledge.
That said, I don't disagree with the core of your point that much faith finds its way into the world of science. My argument, however, is that faith stands contradictory to good science.
For example with psychiatry, when people put their faith in it's hands (science) they somehow seem to lose the perspective that there is much beyond what we know. Because we don't yet know or understand is VERY different than being that is does not exist.
I don't even consider psychiatry to be a science in the sense that, say, biology and physics are sciences. What has psychiatry ever really proven beyond all reasonable doubt?
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
EDIT: So why is there shrinks to help solve weak minded people's problems? Shouldn't they or can't god answer all those questions. Religion = the crutch for weak people who can't get through life by themselves. You know the same people who go crazy from being in a room by themselves for more than a day.
there's nothing week about going crazy from being in isolation to long. clearly you've never been in solitary confinement or read heart of darkness. we're social creatures, humans need human contact. no man is an island. just becos you have no friends doesn't mean people who do are weak
there's nothing week about going crazy from being in isolation to long. clearly you've never been in solitary confinement or read heart of darkness. we're social creatures, humans need human contact. no man is an island. just becos you have no friends doesn't mean people who do are weak
Who needs friends when I am followed by my apostles!
I don't even consider psychiatry to be a science in the sense that, say, biology and physics are sciences. What has psychiatry ever really proven beyond all reasonable doubt?
I think you're confusing psychiatry with pschology. The former is about brain chemistry and treating disorders with drugs, the latter is about mental processes and behaviour.
It doesn't matter if you're male, female, or confused; black, white, brown, red, green, yellow; gay, lesbian; redneck cop, stoned; ugly; military style, doggy style; fat, rich or poor; vegetarian or cannibal; bum, hippie, virgin; famous or drunk-you're either an asshole or you're not!
I think you're confusing psychiatry with pschology. The former is about brain chemistry and treating disorders with drugs, the latter is about mental processes and behaviour.
She does have a point, because my brother, when he was taking phsyics in university, was continually downgrading the validity of the study of medicine in general--in the context of it not being a hard science.
And yet, she may be referring to psychology. In Canada, to become a psychiatrist, one must first become a medical doctor, before further specializing in psychological issues.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Hehe...the latter would require just as much "faith" as the former, angelica.
In order learn to understand agriculture, one begins with the knowledge that food grows and is produced by the earth. It continues with the understanding of how those things happen.
You just stated the problem -- when people put faith in science they've demonstrated a lack of understanding of science's abilities and limitations as an objective pursuit based on human knowledge, not faith-based potential. It's no different than asking your brain surgeon why he doesn't just do a brain transplant because, hey, it should work, right?
All good science puts evidence before understanding, whereas all good faith puts understanding before evidence. Faith is an unreasonable short-cut to knowledge.
That said, I don't disagree with the core of your point that much faith finds its way into the world of science. My argument, however, is that faith stands contradictory to good science.
Interesting, ffg. I hate that I have to go in a few minutes, because I could discuss this topic for hours.
I agree with your first statement. I think a lot of folks blindly believe scientific concepts without understanding 'limitations' as it applies to science. I also think that the extrapolation of a scientist is more dangerous than those of the religious, because those extrapolations are presented as absolute fact of the 'most likely' and presented as such, where as most people understand theories presented by the religious are based on faith. I feel science should be held to a higher standard. I would also say that science alone can not answer the question of the origin of life, although some scientists do extrapolate the concept of abiogenesis as the most likely cause, although there is no empirical proof of this. So, yes 'All good science puts evidence before understanding'.
Ahh, I have to go...........I will just say (and I've said this before) if there was no religion, the ignorant would find something else to do ignorantly. Science damn, you!
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
I think you're confusing psychiatry with pschology. The former is about brain chemistry and treating disorders with drugs, the latter is about mental processes and behaviour.
And then there is the merge called "Biopsychology" dealing with the chemistry of the brain and how it is effected by drugs/trauma. I minored in psych and found Biopsychology to be the most interesting of all psych realms. Psychology as a whole is much more of a science than it used to be.
Jesus's last words were, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
Pretty common sentiment in the world of faith......
Thanks for the lesson.
So we are told that god put it's son here to teach us a lesson and didn't tell the poor boy he was going to be smacked around? A little stretch there I think.
So we are told that god put it's son here to teach us a lesson and didn't tell the poor boy he was going to be smacked around? A little stretch there I think.
you're clearly not a parent, if you tell your kids you're going to smack them around they try to run and it makes it a real pain to catch them. god was just showing us proper parenting.
So we are told that god put it's son here to teach us a lesson and didn't tell the poor boy he was going to be smacked around? A little stretch there I think.
Yeah, apparently Jesus was out of that loop. And like most people of faith, they're constantly looking at the world around them in confusion, asking "why" to something they can't even see. Such is the price of solace.
Yeah, apparently Jesus was out of that loop. And like most people of faith, they're constantly looking at the world around them in confusion, asking "why" to something they can't even see. Such is the price of solace.
The guy walked on water, fed a gagillion people with a fish, cured lepers....But didn't see this coming down the turnpike? Must have used the wrong powers or just turned the blind eye, eh.
you're clearly not a parent, if you tell your kids you're going to smack them around they try to run and it makes it a real pain to catch them. god was just showing us proper parenting.
Show me a parent who just turns the blind eye as their son is getting the shit beat out of him. Must be a joker up in the great place we call the heavens.
Comments
This is why God invented beer.
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
Benjamin Franklin.
Or why he sent Mike McCready. . . .
I was an atheist until ten minutes ago, and then I heard the evenflow solo from NY 9.7.03.
-C Addison
or we'd just say "to hell with it, There isn't anything else so why does it matter what I do on or to the earth?"
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
That's what I wanted to get across. People have the choice to do the right thing in a world w/ and w/o faith. My guess is you'd have a few more people saying "screw it, I'm gonna do what I want"
And the key question is faith in what? We all have faith in alot of things. That's how we work, that's how society can exist. But if we're talking religious faith, I stand by my above statement. If not, then it's a different debate in itself.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
I guess you don't buy into the American culture????? From what I see and as it leaks up to here is that everybody is out for themselves and the one who has the biggest and most toys wins. And religion has nothing at all to do with that. So how do you blow that one off?
Having to believe that the Earth is the only thing would probably make people treat the big blue ball a little better. After all there is no proof of a heaven or an after life, except for books. So before you take that leap of blind faith into the realm of unproven existance. Maybe, just maybe you and others should look at the gift of life from mother Earth as just more than some meaningless existance of a passing of time before you get to the promised land.
Kind of like quitting smoking after you get lung cancer. Keep polluting the Earth and you won't have to believe in a god that created man in it's image just to kill the only planet that we know can sustain life. :rolleyes: Funny how people respected the Earth until somebody came up with that god given right to own pieces of it and sell it to the highest bidder. Which in turn took away the need for knowing your neighbour who would have helped you sustain a healthy life in exchange of prepacked garbage. Thank you god! For putting greed into the mix.
EDIT: So why is there shrinks to help solve weak minded people's problems? Shouldn't they or can't god answer all those questions. Religion = the crutch for weak people who can't get through life by themselves. You know the same people who go crazy from being in a room by themselves for more than a day.
Interesting that you brought up this topic. It was the psychiatric profession that held out little hope for me but to take medication for the rest of my life to deal with my "genetic disorders". It was faith in the higher power I'd experienced that showed me each step on the path to the healing of numerous horrific disorders I had--disorders that the psychiatric profession view as an inborn flaw.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Glad it worked for you.
edit: I'm referring to "genetically based" psychiatric conditions, specifically, here.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
This is a fine line that you speak of.
A man who has faith in agriculture will be lucky to grow anything. A man who understands agriculture, however, can feed a town.
For example with psychiatry, when people put their faith in it's hands (science) they somehow seem to lose the perspective that there is much beyond what we know. Because we don't yet know or understand is VERY different than being that is does not exist.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Hehe...the latter would require just as much "faith" as the former, angelica.
In order learn to understand agriculture, one begins with the knowledge that food grows and is produced by the earth. It continues with the understanding of how those things happen.
You just stated the problem -- when people put faith in science they've demonstrated a lack of understanding of science's abilities and limitations as an objective pursuit based on human knowledge, not faith-based potential. It's no different than asking your brain surgeon why he doesn't just do a brain transplant because, hey, it should work, right?
All good science puts evidence before understanding, whereas all good faith puts understanding before evidence. Faith is an unreasonable short-cut to knowledge.
That said, I don't disagree with the core of your point that much faith finds its way into the world of science. My argument, however, is that faith stands contradictory to good science.
there's nothing week about going crazy from being in isolation to long. clearly you've never been in solitary confinement or read heart of darkness. we're social creatures, humans need human contact. no man is an island. just becos you have no friends doesn't mean people who do are weak
Who needs friends when I am followed by my apostles!
im pretty sure those were the last words of david koresh!
May have been Jesus' too.
Jesus's last words were, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
Pretty common sentiment in the world of faith......
I think you're confusing psychiatry with pschology. The former is about brain chemistry and treating disorders with drugs, the latter is about mental processes and behaviour.
-C Addison
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
And yet, she may be referring to psychology. In Canada, to become a psychiatrist, one must first become a medical doctor, before further specializing in psychological issues.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Interesting, ffg. I hate that I have to go in a few minutes, because I could discuss this topic for hours.
I agree with your first statement. I think a lot of folks blindly believe scientific concepts without understanding 'limitations' as it applies to science. I also think that the extrapolation of a scientist is more dangerous than those of the religious, because those extrapolations are presented as absolute fact of the 'most likely' and presented as such, where as most people understand theories presented by the religious are based on faith. I feel science should be held to a higher standard. I would also say that science alone can not answer the question of the origin of life, although some scientists do extrapolate the concept of abiogenesis as the most likely cause, although there is no empirical proof of this. So, yes 'All good science puts evidence before understanding'.
Ahh, I have to go...........I will just say (and I've said this before) if there was no religion, the ignorant would find something else to do ignorantly. Science damn, you!
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Thanks for the lesson.
So we are told that god put it's son here to teach us a lesson and didn't tell the poor boy he was going to be smacked around? A little stretch there I think.
you're clearly not a parent, if you tell your kids you're going to smack them around they try to run and it makes it a real pain to catch them. god was just showing us proper parenting.
Yeah, apparently Jesus was out of that loop. And like most people of faith, they're constantly looking at the world around them in confusion, asking "why" to something they can't even see. Such is the price of solace.
The guy walked on water, fed a gagillion people with a fish, cured lepers....But didn't see this coming down the turnpike? Must have used the wrong powers or just turned the blind eye, eh.
Show me a parent who just turns the blind eye as their son is getting the shit beat out of him. Must be a joker up in the great place we call the heavens.
Edit: