World would be worse off without faith...

Jeanie

Scubascott wrote:

................How about faith that Pearl Jam will always put on the best bloody rock show on the planet? At least that's something that people on this board can share. . .

Another excellent post scott.

Jeanie

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

I believe spirit embodies us all. I don't see it as some rigid system of rules, judgement and condemnation. I believe all of us humans have the potential to become one with or 'align' with this spirit that speaks to us and flows through us everyday. Some choose to see this as becoming one with a God apart from ourselves, a God we must submit to and express to him our guilt for living. I don't see this. I feel that spirituality involves the good and the bad of life and doesn't reject or judge. Spirituality lifts us up high and helps us to see the beauty in the worlld and inside ourselves. It lifts us above the petty acknowledgement of our differences that tear us apart but teaches us to love our differences because we all have a purpose and something to give. Spirituality works to unite us a one through compassion, undertsanding, and love.

That's beautiful abook. I agree with this too.

Jeanie

hippiemom wrote:

I believe something similar, I think. I think that our universe is infinitely more complex than we realize, that there are forces at play that most of us can't even conceive of, much less access ... ways of communicating, bonds that tie us all together, different concepts of time, etc. We're vaguely aware of them in a sort of subconscious way, and religions have sprung up throughout the ages in an attempt to explain the unexplainable. What I totally reject is any supernatural explanation for any of it ... some unseen being (or group of beings) pulling the cosmic strings from afar, making rules, making judgments, sending people to heaven or hell. I think it is all very natural, organic, very "real," and if we don't destroy ourselves we will one day evolve to understand it all more clearly.

I realize this is very vague and oversimplified, but I just woke up and I'm a little groggy, it's the best I can do at the moment, lol

I can see where an organized religion would have been beneficial in earlier societies, but today I think it does more harm than good and we'd be better off without it. I wholeheartedly believe that people can be their best selves without a scary man in the sky threatening them with eternity in a lake of fire, or the thought of spending 10,000 years as a dung beetle, or any other fear tactics that organized religions employ in an attempt to frighten people into doing what they're told. I know many atheists who prove my point very nicely, day in and day out. I myself am very hopeful, without any faith at all, so I know you don't need faith to have hope.

Actually, like most people, I spent many years believing (or trying to convince myself that I believed) in the religion I was taught as a child. When that completely fell apart for me, I spent many more years exploring other religions. I've been infinitely more hopeful and more at peace with myself and the world around me since I gave it all up.

And I agree with you too mom. Excellent post from a sleepy girl.

I didn't find it vague at all. Makes perfect sense to me.

Jeanie

Ahnimus wrote:

Hey, you don't see many Buddhist wars, do you?

That's all I gotta say. They don't believe in a higher power and they get along better than those that do.

The higher power does not exist. All that exists is matter and math.

Not that I don't agree with you Ahnimus, because you don't see MANY Buddhist wars but I'm pretty sure that some Buddhists have no hesitation to fight. Here's an interesting link. I can't find what I'm looking for right now but I distinctly remember watching footage of Buddhist Monks burning, slashing and fighting against someone, the Tamils I think. But don't quote me. The reason remember it is because I was shocked at the violence that I saw being used by the monks and it seemed sooo wrong to me.


http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=34382

Ahnimus

Jeanie wrote:

Not that I don't agree with you Ahnimus, because you don't see MANY Buddhist wars but I'm pretty sure that some Buddhists have no hesitation to fight. Here's an interesting link. I can't find what I'm looking for right now but I distinctly remember watching footage of Buddhist Monks burning, slashing and fighting against someone, the Tamils I think. But don't quote me. The reason remember it is because I was shocked at the violence that I saw being used by the monks and it seemed sooo wrong to me.


http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=34382

Hmm, I wonder if our Monk brothers and sisters lost sight of their values. Or perhaps fighting is sometimes condoned by even Monks.

Still, statistically speaking, we don't see many.

Thanks for the link Jeanie

Jeanie

Ahnimus wrote:

Hmm, I wonder if our Monk brothers and sisters lost sight of their values. Or perhaps fighting is sometimes condoned by even Monks.

Still, statistically speaking, we don't see many.

Thanks for the link Jeanie

No worries Ahnimus.

brain of c

faith has killed millions........

God, God is on our side, he placed the
power in our handsTo teach the yellow peril, this is
christian mercy
Harry, harry give ’em hell, give ’em hell
one more time again
We’ll show those axis powers how to
make an oven [fry them]

Hoon

brain of c wrote:

faith has killed millions........

God, God is on our side, he placed the
power in our handsTo teach the yellow peril, this is
christian mercy
Harry, harry give ’em hell, give ’em hell
one more time again
We’ll show those axis powers how to
make an oven [fry them]

shit

Jeanie

brain of c wrote:

faith has killed millions........

God, God is on our side, he placed the
power in our handsTo teach the yellow peril, this is
christian mercy
Harry, harry give ’em hell, give ’em hell
one more time again
We’ll show those axis powers how to
make an oven [fry them]

Well seeing as how I reckon that's the most I've ever seen you post, I had to investigate!

From the song Hiroshima by Utopia? And what amazing lyrics! Wish I had broadband so I could download and listen.

Nice post c.

Scubascott

hippiemom wrote:

I think that our universe is infinitely more complex than we realize, that there are forces at play that most of us can't even conceive of, much less access ... ways of communicating, bonds that tie us all together, different concepts of time, etc. We're vaguely aware of them in a sort of subconscious way, . . . I think it is all very natural, organic, very "real," and if we don't destroy ourselves we will one day evolve to understand it all more clearly.

I understand where you're coming from. This is more or less how I feel too. You can kind of sum it all up (the mystery of universe) with the word 'God'. That's what Einstein meant when he referred to God. He wasn't talking about some supernatural, omnipresent deity dreamed up in the mind of man, he was talking about the forces that hold the universe together, the mystery and the beauty and the complexity of it all. I find it much more exciting to ponder those mysteries and feel completely awed by them than to try to explain it all away with a supernatural god.

Byrnzie

gossardstradlin wrote:

...in something greater than ourselves.

This is why God invented beer.

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
Benjamin Franklin.

Scubascott

Byrnzie wrote:

This is why God invented beer.

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
Benjamin Franklin.

Or why he sent Mike McCready. . . .

I was an atheist until ten minutes ago, and then I heard the evenflow solo from NY 9.7.03.

chopitdown

Scubascott wrote:

Thats the pessimist's view. You could say that if all we had to believe in was ourselves and each other we might, as a species, get our act together and realise that we only get one life each, and we only have one planet to live it on, so we'd better make the most of it and stop trashing the place. . . rather than just saying 'the hell with it, I'm going somewhere better when I die anyway'

or we'd just say "to hell with it, There isn't anything else so why does it matter what I do on or to the earth?"

OutOfBreath

chopitdown wrote:

or we'd just say "to hell with it, There isn't anything else so why does it matter what I do on or to the earth?"

So, in essence, there really isn't any argument for or against based on that line of reasoning. Both can be good, and both can be twisted.

Peace
Dan

chopitdown

OutOfBreath wrote:

So, in essence, there really isn't any argument for or against based on that line of reasoning. Both can be good, and both can be twisted.

Peace
Dan

That's what I wanted to get across. People have the choice to do the right thing in a world w/ and w/o faith. My guess is you'd have a few more people saying "screw it, I'm gonna do what I want"

OutOfBreath

chopitdown wrote:

That's what I wanted to get across. People have the choice to do the right thing in a world w/ and w/o faith. My guess is you'd have a few more people saying "screw it, I'm gonna do what I want"

Perhaps. And perhaps not. I think it roughly evens out anyway. Fanatics cancel out "fuck-its" more or less. But that's my opinion anyway.

And the key question is faith in what? We all have faith in alot of things. That's how we work, that's how society can exist. But if we're talking religious faith, I stand by my above statement. If not, then it's a different debate in itself.

Peace
Dan

even flow?

gossardstradlin wrote:

I appreciate your concern. Let me explain a little bit... I believe if the majority of human beings had only themselves and others to believe in, that this planet is "it" and there is nothing else that the majority would be out only for themselves and the violence and destruction would be much greater.

I guess you don't buy into the American culture????? From what I see and as it leaks up to here is that everybody is out for themselves and the one who has the biggest and most toys wins. And religion has nothing at all to do with that. So how do you blow that one off?

Having to believe that the Earth is the only thing would probably make people treat the big blue ball a little better. After all there is no proof of a heaven or an after life, except for books. So before you take that leap of blind faith into the realm of unproven existance. Maybe, just maybe you and others should look at the gift of life from mother Earth as just more than some meaningless existance of a passing of time before you get to the promised land.

Kind of like quitting smoking after you get lung cancer. Keep polluting the Earth and you won't have to believe in a god that created man in it's image just to kill the only planet that we know can sustain life. :rolleyes: Funny how people respected the Earth until somebody came up with that god given right to own pieces of it and sell it to the highest bidder. Which in turn took away the need for knowing your neighbour who would have helped you sustain a healthy life in exchange of prepacked garbage. Thank you god! For putting greed into the mix.

EDIT: So why is there shrinks to help solve weak minded people's problems? Shouldn't they or can't god answer all those questions. Religion = the crutch for weak people who can't get through life by themselves. You know the same people who go crazy from being in a room by themselves for more than a day.

angelica

even flow? wrote:

EDIT: So why is there shrinks to help solve weak minded people's problems? Shouldn't they or can't god answer all those questions. Religion = the crutch for weak people who can't get through life by themselves. You know the same people who go crazy from being in a room by themselves for more than a day.

Interesting that you brought up this topic. It was the psychiatric profession that held out little hope for me but to take medication for the rest of my life to deal with my "genetic disorders". It was faith in the higher power I'd experienced that showed me each step on the path to the healing of numerous horrific disorders I had--disorders that the psychiatric profession view as an inborn flaw. Ultimately we need to pick and choose what works for us. For example, in my case, psychiatric help and medications were a crutch that helped me function enough to have left over energy to invest in the faith I needed in order to construct real and lasting change in my life. In the end, it's what we decide to make of it: "shrinks" can be viewed as a crutch, or faith can be viewed as a crutch. Whatever works for the individual is what is important.

even flow?

angelica wrote:

Interesting that you brought up this topic. It was the psychiatric profession that held out little hope for me but to take medication for the rest of my life to deal with my "genetic disorders". It was faith in the higher power I'd experienced that showed me each step on the path to the healing of numerous horrific disorders I had--disorders that the psychiatric profession view as an inborn flaw. Ultimately we need to pick and choose what works for us. For example, in my case, psychiatric help and medications were a crutch that helped me function enough to have left over energy to invest in the faith I needed in order to construct real and lasting change in my life. In the end, it's what we decide to make of it: "shrinks" can be viewed as a crutch, or faith can be viewed as a crutch. Whatever works for the individual is what is important.

Glad it worked for you.

angelica

even flow? wrote:

Glad it worked for you.

Thanks. The key here is that the only way it works is with a faith that goes beyond what science can tell us given what we know at this time. Going based on the science view, one is relegated to being "flawed" for life. Millions of people worldwide suffer because they believe what they are told.
edit: I'm referring to "genetically based" psychiatric conditions, specifically, here.