Reparations (monetary compensation to slave ancestors)

FiveB247x

Education is a major part of it, but also a large problem that slavery brought about was racism - which we still see today in our society. Handing out money won't fix that, but helping communities to become more stable and better off financially by backing their growth and legitimacy can help remove a portion of it. Poverty breeds crime.

truroute wrote:

Good article Kenny. Fredrick's ideas are definatly better than cutting people checks, but I still dont agree w/ it reason being because the issue still separates blacks from whites. Its still using slavery as an excuse for how things are today.

And IMO, when we keep talking about differences b'twn blacks and white and keep blaming animosity b'twn each on the past, we'll never get past the past ourselves and we'll continure to separate ourselves into black and white, thus repeating the reasons for animosity. (sry for so many pasts) Its a complete circle. Im my way of thinking, this makes sense. Move on and have personal resposibilty to better yourself.

VictoryGin

FiveB247x wrote:

"I'm proposing that we establish a think tank of leading economists, accountants, and deans from the business schools of all the black colleges. This think tank could invest the reparations and then money could be lent to start businesses, provide scholarships, and generate jobs. This would be an opportunity for synergistic change in the black community. We have to have some type of structure that will continue to repair the damage that has been done."

That is balancing the effects of slavery and racism by sponsoring and helping communities become more self-sufficient, profitable and stable. Promoting business's, jobs, education and similar are not handouts - they are ways for people to have access and create their own medium and equity - but not for free - as a stepping stool. That idea is not the main remedy that most people want for "reparations" - they ask for a check for themselves.

Hopefully if they did something like that they would revisit the Freedmen's Bureau and learn from that whole situation.

cornnifer

truroute wrote:

Good article Kenny. Fredrick's ideas are definatly better than cutting people checks, but I still dont agree w/ it reason being because the issue still separates blacks from whites. Its still using slavery as an excuse for how things are today.

And IMO, when we keep talking about differences b'twn blacks and white and keep blaming animosity b'twn each on the past, we'll never get past the past ourselves and we'll continure to separate ourselves into black and white, thus repeating the reasons for animosity. (sry for so many pasts) Its a complete circle. Im my way of thinking, this makes sense. Move on and have personal resposibilty to better yourself.

What is really circular, is the debate going on in this thread.

Now for what I hope is my last post in this thread. I'm sure no one will read and pay attention to the points as it seems no one has so far. Sad.

What you see in the Fredrick Douglas article is an example of Black leadership pushing for responsible use of reparations, which, I agree, is a very good thing. He prosposes some very good ideas. That being said, even if the money was used by individuals to buy lexus' and what not, it doesn't matter. Its their inheritance. I'm definitely on the side of responsibility.

Your still missing the point about the role, IMO, of reparations. It isn't intended to right past wrongs, heal all wounds, and reconcile all differences. No amount of money can do that. Its backpay, IMO. Plain and simple. Its money owed.

Lastly, I think many people here talk as if The African slave trade is ancient history. I think someone said something about "great, great, great, or even greater grandchidren...". Do you realize that the slave trade in the United States ended less than 150 years ago? Thats a blink. When dealing with some of the older living African Americans, were potentially dealing with the CHILDREN of slaves.

FiveB247x

Back pay to who exactly? The blood relatives of slaves? Would I be eligible for "back pay" because my ancestors had it tough making their way in the early 20th century because people were/are racist to Jews in America? If that racism didn't hold my ancestors back from employment and hardships, they obviously would have had a much easier life as would my parents as would I. See where I'm going with this? Anyone could literally make a legitimate case for being owed something. Comes down to the reality that paying some money won't fix the problem.

cornnifer wrote:

What is really circular, is the debate going on in this thread.

Now for what I hope is my last post in this thread. I'm sure no one will read and pay attention to the points as it seems no one has so far. Sad.

What you see in the Fredrick Douglas article is an example of Black leadership pushing for responsible use of reparations, which, I agree, is a very good thing. He prosposes some very good ideas. That being said, even if the money was used by individuals to buy lexus' and what not, it doesn't matter. Its their inheritance. I'm definitely on the side of responsibility.

Your still missing the point about the role, IMO, of reparations. It isn't intended to right past wrongs, heal all wounds, and reconcile all differences. No amount of money can do that. Its backpay, IMO. Plain and simple. Its money owed.

Lastly, I think many people here talk as if The African slave trade is ancient history. I think someone said something about "great, great, great, or even greater grandchidren...". Do you realize that the slave trade in the United States ended less than 150 years ago? Thats a blink. When dealing with some of the older living African Americans, were potentially dealing with the CHILDREN of slaves.

VictoryGin

FiveB247x wrote:

Back pay to who exactly? The blood relatives of slaves? Would I be eligible for "back pay" because my ancestors had it tough making their way in the early 20th century because people were/are racist to Jews in America? If that racism didn't hold my ancestors back from employment and hardships, they obviously would have had a much easier life as would my parents as would I. See where I'm going with this? Anyone could literally make a legitimate case for being owed something. Comes down to the reality that paying some money won't fix the problem.

Were millions of them forced on ships to come here to the US, be sold at auctions, and work sunup to sundown without pay while operating as property of someone? Not even mentioning the terrible conditions many were put under.

No, I don't see where you're going with this.

Spartanacus

FiveB247x wrote:

Back pay to who exactly? The blood relatives of slaves? Would I be eligible for "back pay" because my ancestors had it tough making their way in the early 20th century because people were/are racist to Jews in America? If that racism didn't hold my ancestors back from employment and hardships, they obviously would have had a much easier life as would my parents as would I.

Interesting point. But not to change the subject or sound racist here...look at the plight of the Jews (persecuted through the history of mankind) versus the plight of the African Americans and American Indians.

The difference between the Jews and the other groups is that they have risen above the atrocities committed against them and have gone on to be quite the successful, if not one of the most successful (financially), ethnic/religious groups. In the US at least, it seems like they dominate medicine, law, big business, and the entertainment fields.

What drives them? Money? Power? Revenge? Success? All of the above?

I've always wondered if when you're a little Jew, your grandfather, father, or all older family members, take you aside for "the secret discussion" about how we as a people must work harder than the average man, rise up, and rebuild our army of Jews to take over the world.

Any truth to my hypotheses my Jewish friends? I suposse I could try to ask my uncle who married a Jew and has half Jewish kids.

Actually, I heard from my brother who works at Daimler Chrysler that the Germans have a similar long term plan of world domination again.

Same deal probably for the Chinese, and possibly India.

Who is going to knock the US off it's perch, or at least take their place if or when we fall backwards?

Deep...

FiveB247x

Well you're just comparing different levels of effects from either laws or racism. Just as many other groups in US history, people have been negatively effected by either policies, laws or racism... does that mean everyone blood related to them is owed something?

No one is denying the terrible conditions that was around slavery -directly or indirectly.

Can you atleast acknowledge the example I provided about my ancestors is correct? You may feel more strongly towards your example, but they're just different levels of ill-treatment. Does that mean both deserve something?

VictoryGin wrote:

Were millions of them forced on ships to come here to the US, be sold at auctions, and work sunup to sundown without pay while operating as property of someone? Not even mentioning the terrible conditions many were put under.

No, I don't see where you're going with this.

Milhouse VanHouten

FiveB247x wrote:

Back pay to who exactly? The blood relatives of slaves? Would I be eligible for "back pay" because my ancestors had it tough making their way in the early 20th century because people were/are racist to Jews in America? If that racism didn't hold my ancestors back from employment and hardships, they obviously would have had a much easier life as would my parents as would I. See where I'm going with this? Anyone could literally make a legitimate case for being owed something. Comes down to the reality that paying some money won't fix the problem.

I'm not trying to downplay the obstacles that Jewish people have faced in the United States, but I don't think it's comparable to slavery.

FiveB247x

I'm not comparing it to slavery per say... all I'm saying is that the same intent to right a wrong is there. So if I can sit here and say that my example holds weight and is true, wouldn't that entitle me or others to some sort of reparations? Couldn't any group which had unfair treatment against them(whether big or small) be legitimately entitled to some sort of reparations?

The point of a reparation is not just just give a handout or say we're sorry... it's to fix the issue that is left from the wrong doing... ie - slavery helped create a racist nation in which people are unfairly judged and not given the same fair and balanced treatment (whether economically, socially or politically). Handing out money as some sort of "we're sorry bout that" is nothing more than a sham and doesn't address any issue whatsoever.

Milhouse VanHouten wrote:

I'm not trying to downplay the obstacles that Jewish people have faced in the United States, but I don't think it's comparable to slavery.

know1

It's not an idea that could or should happen.

Here's a question: How do you define "Black"?

onelongsong

Spartancus wrote:

Interesting point. But not to change the subject or sound racist here...look at the plight of the Jews (persecuted through the history of mankind) versus the plight of the African Americans and American Indians.

The difference between the Jews and the other groups is that they have risen above the atrocities committed against them and have gone on to be quite the successful, if not one of the most successful (financially), ethnic/religious groups. In the US at least, it seems like they dominate medicine, law, big business, and the entertainment fields.

What drives them? Money? Power? Revenge? Success? All of the above?

I've always wondered if when you're a little Jew, your grandfather, father, or all older family members, take you aside for "the secret discussion" about how we as a people must work harder than the average man, rise up, and rebuild our army of Jews to take over the world.

Any truth to my hypotheses my Jewish friends? I suposse I could try to ask my uncle who married a Jew and has half Jewish kids.

Actually, I heard from my brother who works at Daimler Chrysler that the Germans have a similar long term plan of world domination again.

Same deal probably for the Chinese, and possibly India.

Who is going to knock the US off it's perch, or at least take their place if or when we fall backwards?

Deep...

i'm not jewish but i do believe in some of their teachings.
first; if the mother is jewish the children are jewish. your brothers children are jewish; not half jewish.
next; the jewish people are not one to sit and cry; bo hoo; poor me. they; like many other successful people accept the challenge and soldier on. many blacks are doctors; lawyers; etc because they refused to let history hold them down. they are not the ones with their hands out. the lazy are.
hitler enslaved part of my family and killed some. i don't expect the german people to repay me for the misdoings of a madman.
slavery is not an american idea. it was accepted in europe and that acceptance was brought over with the immigrants. wasn't it america that fought to abolish slavery in the civil war? shouldn't the blacks be thanking america for freeing them? shouldn't the blacks be repaying the white americans whose ansestors died fighting for their freedom?

just wanted to get a different perspective going here. don't jump on me for bringing a new perspective to the mix.

truroute

Milhouse VanHouten wrote:

I'm not trying to downplay the obstacles that Jewish people have faced in the United States, but I don't think it's comparable to slavery.

Of course it is. Its just jews are white (primarily) and black slavery (in this conversation) happened in America.

Blacks were not the only ethnic group that were shat upon and payed nothing during that time period.

And I'm not sure who said it, but 150 years is a long time. A blink in the big scheme of things, but a longtime in this case IMO.

Milhouse VanHouten

onelongsong wrote:

wasn't it america that fought to abolish slavery in the civil war? shouldn't the blacks be thanking america for freeing them? shouldn't the blacks be repaying the white americans whose ansestors died fighting for their freedom?

You make it sound like government-sanctioned racism ended the exact second that the Emancipation Proclamation was signed.

Why do the descendants of Union soldiers deserve reparations? They were paid by the government for their services.

The notion of thanking someone for freeing you after they enslaved you is almost funny.

truroute

Bill Cosby for President

onelongsong

truroute wrote:

Of course it is. Its just jews are white (primarily) and black slavery (in this conversation) happened in America.

Blacks were not the only ethnic group that were shat upon and payed nothing during that time period.

And I'm not sure who said it, but 150 years is a long time. A blink in the big scheme of things, but a longtime in this case IMO.

black slavery happened in america??? hummmm; so the european slaves were in black face then? and the black slaves prior to the discovery of america are worthless because they were not american slaves???
interesting.

onelongsong

Milhouse VanHouten wrote:

You make it sound like government-sanctioned racism ended the exact second that the Emancipation Proclamation was signed.

Why do the descendants of Union soldiers deserve reparations? They were paid by the government for their services.

The notion of thanking someone for freeing you after they enslaved you is almost funny.

no thanks necessary. we're used to it. just piss and moan about how bad your life is and blame it on something that happened 141 years ago. bo hoo; i can't work because a family member was enslaved 141 years ago. almost every people have been enslaved at one point or another. white slavery still exists. just talk to young girls forced to be hookers.

Milhouse VanHouten

truroute wrote:

Of course it is. Its just jews are white (primarily) and black slavery (in this conversation) happened in America.

Blacks were not the only ethnic group that were shat upon and payed nothing during that time period.

And I'm not sure who said it, but 150 years is a long time. A blink in the big scheme of things, but a longtime in this case IMO.

I'll refer you back to VG's post. Tell me about the millions of Jewish people who were brought to America against their will and separated from their families and forced into a life of hard labor with no compensation whatsoever.

The racism that resulted from slavery didn't end the second Emancipation went into effect. Jim Fucking Crow laws were still in effect in this country only 43 years ago.

truroute

onelongsong wrote:

black slavery happened in america??? hummmm; so the european slaves were in black face then? and the black slaves prior to the discovery of america are worthless because they were not american slaves???
interesting.

Read what I wrote again. In regaurd to this thread and about reparations. Decendents of European slaves arent inquiring about reparations today.

truroute

Milhouse VanHouten wrote:

I'll refer you back to VG's post. Tell me about the millions of Jewish people who were brought to America against their will and separated from their families and forced into a life of hard labor with no compensation whatsoever.

The racism that resulted from slavery didn't end the second Emancipation went into effect. Jim Fucking Crow laws were still in effect in this country only 43 years ago.

Again, black people were not the only ones shat upon during the infancy of this country.

Its just that Jews, Chinese, Irish, Indian, and whoever the fuck else didn't have a movie named ROOTS that let everyone know about it (great movie by the way), and they also do not have "civil rights leaders" rubbing the past in the face of everyone nowa days. And people like yourself do not help anything on either side of the issue by offering up special treatment to the 1 group of people that constantly moan and groan. (group of people not meaning the entire black race, so pls dont take that route)

Milhouse VanHouten

onelongsong wrote:

no thanks necessary. we're used to it. just piss and moan about how bad your life is and blame it on something that happened 141 years ago. bo hoo; i can't work because a family member was enslaved 141 years ago. almost every people have been enslaved at one point or another. white slavery still exists. just talk to young girls forced to be hookers.

I'm not "pissing and moaning" about my life. I have a job. I have no family members that I know of who were slaves.

For someone who came into this thread asking others not to jump on him, you seem awful touchy. "bo hoo", as you might say.