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We should either stick to the tenents of the religions we claim to be... or accept the idea that we do not follow religion. Or is Religion one of those things where you're okay... as long as you 'try'. Because, to me... you don't 'try' to be a good person... you either are or you aren't. Is it possilble to try to be Christian... and still claim to be Christian?
i don't want to get into the first points you bring up simply b/c that would be a huge discussion to undertake.
I think the only option, as christians is to try to be one. One of the basic tenents of Christianity is that we aren't good enough to get to heaven We try and fail and try and fail b/c we are not and cannot be perfect beings. We can be good beings, but in Christianity, good is not enough. If we could be good enough to get to heaven we wouldn't need Christ. I think that in our actions we try to be good to honor Christ (yet we fail all the time and i think we succeed at times, not to be too hard on people). The requisite for heaven is perfection, which no one can attain.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
i don't want to get into the first points you bring up simply b/c that would be a huge discussion to undertake.
I think the only option, as christians is to try to be one. One of the basic tenents of Christianity is that we aren't good enough to get to heaven We try and fail and try and fail b/c we are not and cannot be perfect beings. We can be good beings, but in Christianity, good is not enough. If we could be good enough to get to heaven we wouldn't need Christ. I think that in our actions we try to be good to honor Christ (yet we fail all the time and i think we succeed at times, not to be too hard on people). The requisite for heaven is perfection, which no one can attain.
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Then Heaven's population is 2. God and Jesus. Everyone else is in Hell.
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Trying is kind of weak... in my book. You can try and try all you want... knowing that even if you fail, Jesus is there to get you off the hook. Persoanlly, I don't want to lay all my bullshit on Jesus... I don't believe He deserves that.
This is why I shun Christianity. I used to go to church and all that. I got tired of seeing the people ask forgiveness on Sunday and screw over other people on Monday.
So, I took my God and went out to find Him on my own.
I do good things and I do bad. I accept my bad actions as my own and don't dump them on Jesus' shoulders. The good things I do is not because there is some conditional acceptance from Jesus tied to it... I do it because it is the right thing to do. I do not believe Jesus' love is conditional. Same with God... I believe He will acccept me for my acts... not because I am looking for some sort of reward from Him in the end. I believe He will accept me along with all my faults and errors.
If I'm wrong and it does work that way... that I'm sent to Hell because I've got all of these unanswered questions... well... oh, well. If He is that vain... send me to Hell. With the rest of the entrie population of humans that has ever lived on Earth.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
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Then Heaven's population is 2. God and Jesus. Everyone else is in Hell.
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Trying is kind of weak... in my book. You can try and try all you want... knowing that even if you fail, Jesus is there to get you off the hook. Persoanlly, I don't want to lay all my bullshit on Jesus... I don't believe He deserves that.
This is why I shun Christianity. I used to go to church and all that. I got tired of seeing the people ask forgiveness on Sunday and screw over other people on Monday.
So, I took my God and went out to find Him on my own.
I do good things and I do bad. I accept my bad actions as my own and don't dump them on Jesus' shoulders. The good things I do is not because there is some conditional acceptance from Jesus tied to it... I do it because it is the right thing to do. I do not believe Jesus' love is conditional. Same with God... I believe He will acccept me for my acts... not because I am looking for some sort of reward from Him in the end. I believe He will accept me along with all my faults and errors.
If I'm wrong and it does work that way... that I'm sent to Hell because I've got all of these unanswered questions... well... oh, well. If He is that vain... send me to Hell. With the rest of the entrie population of humans that has ever lived on Earth.
I can't believe this thread is still going on. Here's the bottom line: mass murders are psychopaths. Religion doesn't even register with them. From Hitler to Stalin and Gacy to Dahmer--none of them gave a fuck about what the people they killed did on Sunday or Saturday.
I can't believe this thread is still going on. Here's the bottom line: mass murders are psychopaths. Religion doesn't even register with them. From Hitler to Stalin and Gacy to Dahmer--none of them gave a fuck about what the people they killed did on Sunday or Saturday.
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Again... of the 6 million Jews murdered during the Holocaust... how many did Hitler kill, himself? I'll give you Gacy and Dahmer... but, God fearing Germans killed those Jews (under Hitler's command). Does, 'I vas jes followink orders' dismiss their guilt?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
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Then Heaven's population is 2. God and Jesus. Everyone else is in Hell.
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Trying is kind of weak... in my book. You can try and try all you want... knowing that even if you fail, Jesus is there to get you off the hook. Persoanlly, I don't want to lay all my bullshit on Jesus... I don't believe He deserves that.
This is why I shun Christianity. I used to go to church and all that. I got tired of seeing the people ask forgiveness on Sunday and screw over other people on Monday.
So, I took my God and went out to find Him on my own.
I do good things and I do bad. I accept my bad actions as my own and don't dump them on Jesus' shoulders. The good things I do is not because there is some conditional acceptance from Jesus tied to it... I do it because it is the right thing to do. I do not believe Jesus' love is conditional. Same with God... I believe He will acccept me for my acts... not because I am looking for some sort of reward from Him in the end. I believe He will accept me along with all my faults and errors.
If I'm wrong and it does work that way... that I'm sent to Hell because I've got all of these unanswered questions... well... oh, well. If He is that vain... send me to Hell. With the rest of the entrie population of humans that has ever lived on Earth.
well if you've been to church you know my response to your first statement.
sometimes i think the worst thing for christianity is christians themselves. Everyone screws up and everyone is not going to be perfect. If you put your faith in the actions of the people that go to church you will be let down, as it seems you have. The purpose of Christ in Christianity is that he took our sins (or bullshit, as you have said) so we could be perfect in Gods eyes. So we can come to him with all of our faults. If we tried to do it on our own, you'd be absolutely right, heaven would have very few people.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
well if you've been to church you know my response to your first statement.
sometimes i think the worst thing for christianity is christians themselves. Everyone screws up and everyone is not going to be perfect. If you put your faith in the actions of the people that go to church you will be let down, as it seems you have. The purpose of Christ in Christianity is that he took our sins (or bullshit, as you have said) so we could be perfect in Gods eyes. So we can come to him with all of our faults. If we tried to do it on our own, you'd be absolutely right, heaven would have very few people.
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Which is where my confusion comes in.
The confusion of, why even bother if you know you got an escape clause built-in? This seems to be how many 'Christians' seem to be. I would have more faith in the Christian religion if more people who claim to be Christians, at least, tried to be more Christ-like, by taking His words and putting them into their actions.
The most recent act I can say that I have witnessed to be most Christ-like... the Amish forgiveness and acceptance after going through such a horrible ordeal. To me... that was absolutely AWESOME. I have nothing but the deepest respect for them and their religion. For me... that was a true display of Christianity.
But, don't look for me to becoming Amish any time soon. Although, I am looking closely into their religion and beliefs.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
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Which is where my confusion comes in.
The confusion of, why even bother if you know you got an escape clause built-in? This seems to be how many 'Christians' seem to be. I would have more faith in the Christian religion if more people who claim to be Christians, at least, tried to be more Christ-like, by taking His words and putting them into their actions.
The most recent act I can say that I have witnessed to be most Christ-like... the Amish forgiveness and acceptance after going through such a horrible ordeal. To me... that was absolutely AWESOME. I have nothing but the deepest respect for them and their religion. For me... that was a true display of Christianity.
But, don't look for me to becoming Amish any time soon. Although, I am looking closely into their religion and beliefs.
i agree many christians do seem to operate under the escape clause mentality, but there are also many who don't. The reason you bother even with the so called escape clause is that you are working to be like Christ... Faith without works to back them up, isn't really faith at all; which is a whole different conversation. I agree christians do need to try to be more Christ-like, esp if they are proclaiming to be Christians. To me that is where people need to step up and not be afraid to call out someone who is operating under those pretenses. I think in a lot of ways the churches have failed b/c they don't hold people accountable or are afraid to come off judgemental, to other Christians. But i do implore you to not hold Christians to a ridiculous standard that they can't possibly meet. Every single Christian will let you down b/c Christians are still human and still imperfect...you'd havea tough time telling some of them that, but that's a different story. I agree with you about the Amish, they did a very noble and good thing and it was very Christ-like. I think the problem is, we tend to remember the Christians who screw up or let us down more so than the ones who don't.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
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Again... of the 6 million Jews murdered during the Holocaust... how many did Hitler kill, himself? I'll give you Gacy and Dahmer... but, God fearing Germans killed those Jews (under Hitler's command). Does, 'I vas jes followink orders' dismiss their guilt?
No. But '"I vas jes followink orders"....because they would have killed me' does.
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A couple of cases in point:
1. The relentless use of the Bible stating that homosexuality is an abomination. It says it right there in Leviticus. So, taken at face value, if you believe Leviticus.. then, God does, indeed, hate fags.
Is the religion wrong or the Reverend Phelps and his congregation?
2. The use of Jihad in the Koran. No, not knowing the Koran so well, I cannot say one way or the other. I do know that this is often used as a justification by followers of Islam to wage acts of violence towards 'infidels'. Since I don't know, is this the religion... even when the religious leaders call for it... or the fault of the follower who is called to commit the act?
3. 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'. It is right there... in the Ten Commandmants. We all know this. As Christians... and as a Christian nation... how do we explain the Death Penalty and soldiers, killing in our name? Where is the waiver that states we CAN kill in these specific cases?
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We should either stick to the tenents of the religions we claim to be... or accept the idea that we do not follow religion. Or is Religion one of those things where you're okay... as long as you 'try'. Because, to me... you don't 'try' to be a good person... you either are or you aren't. Is it possilble to try to be Christian... and still claim to be Christian?
I am not at all up on bible stuff. I would like to hear specific stuff about homosexuality being wrong. In God's truth, all is perfect enduring Love. However there are many contexts removed from this purity, whereupon there can be arguments against homosexuality. The bottom line is we are all immersed in perfect abiding love in each moment--that is the reality. Anything that tells us otherwise is an illusion--we take the veils we see through to be the truth. There are perfect Divine reasons that it is this way, as well. And this goes for other religions that seem to act on evil, too.
We cannot use any words in the bible to justify killing, because we will be held to account for any killing that we do, no matter how much we excuse ourselves. The truth as I've seen it from spiritual experiences is that any form of "evil" that we know, from serial killing on, etc, is still 100% one with God. As a matter of fact, the ugliness and horror we perceive is an illusion. Our idea that this life is the only one we get is a big illusion, and therefore, since death is actually like taking off the oppressive coat of 3-dimensional limits and duality, death is glorious and liberating. I know people like to see this kind of view as naive. I know otherwise from personal experience.
What is crucial, though, is we are held to account for our each thought, word and deed. As we cross beyond our lives here, we will lose the illusions, and we will personally know, fully feel and understand EXACTLY how we have harmed others, and therefore many of us are in for a big shock of the most humbling beyond humbling kind. When we lose our arrogance and our egos and are face to face with truth, we are very, very, very small. I know this because I've faced this experience numerous times in this life--where I suddenly find myself face to face with God/Spirit/the Source, and I am shown awareness of the full far-reaching consequences of my actions. I am allowed to accept the fullness of my actions, both good and bad, and to become at-one with myself. I truly atone for my actions. To experience this, one knows that the truth of the God or the Source one is faced with is more true than 100 lifetimes on this planet.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
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You and I are on the same page here.
I don't believe in Satan... only God. I believe that Satan is an entity originally created by Man to give Man an excuse to lay his faults upon. To me... Satan and Man are the same thing. That isn't Satan tempting you to cheat on your tax return, lie to that gal in order to bang her or knowingly keeping the extra 10 that the cashier mistakenly gave you... it is you. You cannot blame bad acts on Satan. Those are your deeds and you need to accept them as such.
On the other hand... I don't credit God for my accomplishments. God does not let one team in the World Series win over the other and He does not direct who wins a Grammy. I thank God for this life and the things I find in this world. It is up to me to figure out what to do with them.
And yeah... no one is perfect. We are human... errors are part of our being. Our religions are created by Man, be it the authors of the Bible, the Gospels or L.Ron Hubbard and contain the same flaws that reside in us.
The way I see it is that "satan" exists in the potential for "bad", or "dark" or "wrong" on this level of existence. It is impersonal and beyond us, AND we can personalize it, and therefore act "evil". I agree entirely that we do something wrong and we "project" it onto someone else. Our consciousness splits reality into fragments that distort what we see.
Different people have different world views, so when people experience satan as outside of them and as separated from their own darkness, this is their worldview, their world and their experience. It is 100% valid as such. I have a different world view. Even when I experience "evil" in others, I look for how I am projecting this onto nature which just "is".
I credit God for my each accomplishment. I know God is my base, my Source and my foundation. If I am unplugged from my very Source, I am aligned only with my false ego-self. Such lone-alignment is very dark and painful for me, compared to being plugged into my stunning potential. I am thrilled that I am a creative being and that living my potential and my deepest dreams is perfectly aligned with life and creation. And when I step out of alignment, I will feel the discomfort I alone cause.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
RANCHO SANTA FE, CALIF. - In recent months, a spate of atheist books have argued that religion represents, as "End of Faith" author Sam Harris puts it, "the most potent source of human conflict, past and present."
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Columnist Robert Kuttner gives the familiar litany. "The Crusades slaughtered millions in the name of Jesus. The Inquisition brought the torture and murder of millions more. After Martin Luther, Christians did bloody battle with other Christians for another three centuries."
In his bestseller "The God Delusion," Richard Dawkins contends that most of the world's recent conflicts - in the Middle East, in the Balkans, in Northern Ireland, in Kashmir, and in Sri Lanka - show the vitality of religion's murderous impulse.
The problem with this critique is that it exaggerates the crimes attributed to religion, while ignoring the greater crimes of secular fanaticism. The best example of religious persecution in America is the Salem witch trials. How many people were killed in those trials? Thousands? Hundreds? Actually, fewer than 25. Yet the event still haunts the liberal imagination.
It is strange to witness the passion with which some secular figures rail against the misdeeds of the Crusaders and Inquisitors more than 500 years ago. The number sentenced to death by the Spanish Inquisition appears to be about 10,000. Some historians contend that an additional 100,000 died in jail due to malnutrition or illness.
These figures are tragic, and of course population levels were much lower at the time. But even so, they are minuscule compared with the death tolls produced by the atheist despotisms of the 20th century. In the name of creating their version of a religion-free utopia, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Mao Zedong produced the kind of mass slaughter that no Inquisitor could possibly match. Collectively these atheist tyrants murdered more than 100 million people.
Moreover, many of the conflicts that are counted as "religious wars" were not fought over religion. They were mainly fought over rival claims to territory and power. Can the wars between England and France be called religious wars because the English were Protestants and the French were Catholics? Hardly.
The same is true today. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not, at its core, a religious one. It arises out of a dispute over self-determination and land. Hamas and the extreme orthodox parties in Israel may advance theological claims - "God gave us this land" and so forth - but the conflict would remain essentially the same even without these religious motives. Ethnic rivalry, not religion, is the source of the tension in Northern Ireland and the Balkans.
p>Yet today's atheists insist on making religion the culprit. Consider Mr. Harris's analysis of the conflict in Sri Lanka. "While the motivations of the Tamil Tigers are not explicitly religious," he informs us, "they are Hindus who undoubtedly believe many improbable things about the nature of life and death." In other words, while the Tigers see themselves as combatants in a secular political struggle, Harris detects a religious motive because these people happen to be Hindu and surely there must be some underlying religious craziness that explains their fanaticism.
Harris can go on forever in this vein. Seeking to exonerate secularism and atheism from the horrors perpetrated in their name, he argues that Stalinism and Maoism were in reality "little more than a political religion." As for Nazism, "while the hatred of Jews in Germany expressed itself in a predominantly secular way, it was a direct inheritance from medieval Christianity." Indeed, "The holocaust marked the culmination of ... two thousand years of Christian fulminating against the Jews."
One finds the same inanities in Mr. Dawkins's work. Don't be fooled by this rhetorical legerdemain. Dawkins and Harris cannot explain why, if Nazism was directly descended from medieval Christianity, medieval Christianity did not produce a Hitler. How can a self-proclaimed atheist ideology, advanced by Hitler as a repudiation of Christianity, be a "culmination" of 2,000 years of Christianity? Dawkins and Harris are employing a transparent sleight of hand that holds Christianity responsible for the crimes committed in its name, while exonerating secularism and atheism for the greater crimes committed in their name.
Religious fanatics have done things that are impossible to defend, and some of them, mostly in the Muslim world, are still performing horrors in the name of their creed. But if religion sometimes disposes people to self-righteousness and absolutism, it also provides a moral code that condemns the slaughter of innocents. In particular, the moral teachings of Jesus provide no support for - indeed they stand as a stern rebuke to - the historical injustices perpetrated in the name of Christianity.
Atheist hubris
The crimes of atheism have generally been perpetrated through a hubristic ideology that sees man, not God, as the creator of values. Using the latest techniques of science and technology, man seeks to displace God and create a secular utopia here on earth. Of course if some people - the Jews, the landowners, the unfit, or the handicapped - have to be eliminated in order to achieve this utopia, this is a price the atheist tyrants and their apologists have shown themselves quite willing to pay. Thus they confirm the truth of Fyodor Dostoyevsky's dictum, "If God is not, everything is permitted."
Whatever the motives for atheist bloodthirstiness, the indisputable fact is that all the religions of the world put together have in 2,000 years not managed to kill as many people as have been killed in the name of atheism in the past few decades.
It's time to abandon the mindlessly repeated mantra that religious belief has been the greatest source of human conflict and violence. Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history.
* Dinesh D'Souza is the Rishwain Fellow at the Hoover Institution. His new book, "The Enemy at Home: The Cultural Left and Its Responsibility for 9/11," will be published in January.
You have a good argument. The crux of the problem is in the the way human beings handle their fears. The happier people are of the religious sort, but not necesarily because they handle their fears better.
Let me propose this: Children like to be frightened. They do! The whole scary monster thing is invigorating for those who embrace it. Children will embrace it in a healthy way known they are protected by their parents. Adults tend to be either offended or humored by those things that frighten them, or catch them off guard. In the extreme, those who are most offended by "frightening" things also tend to be those most agreeable to monomythic icons and also the most agreeable to dogmatic and rigid thinking.
You have a good argument. The crux of the problem is in the the way human beings handle their fears. The happier people are of the religious sort, but not necesarily because they handle their fears better.
Let me propose this: Children like to be frightened. They do! The whole scary monster thing is invigorating for those who embrace it. Children will embrace it in a healthy way known they are protected by their parents. Adults tend to be either offended or humored by those things that frighten them, or catch them off guard. In the extreme, those who are most offended by "frightening" things also tend to be those most agreeable to monomythic icons and also the most agreeable to dogmatic and rigid thinking.
I think I need to add that there are many more ways to handle fear and fearful things than just humor, or offense. I guess I used these examples as a counter to the polemic suggestion of the post.
Are you talking about children who are not yet adults? Or do you mean also adult children?
If you are talking about children who are not adult and who commit crimes, parents are held accountable for them in numerous ways.
The way I see it, Charles Manson's intent was much different than the average parent who teaches their kids horrible things but who mean well and do it in good conscience. I think the spirit of the law understands that difference. Particularly our lawmakers who spend their lives assessing fine lines of accountability. I think the average person does not as easily see such difference.
I'm talking about parents who have the same twisted intent as Manson.
To you or anyone else who foolishly, and blindly postulates that religion is the source of all things evil i ask this:
How many Atheist based shelters and soup kitchens are there?
What is the Atheist based equivalent to Habitat for Humanity?
Please point me to the Atheist Equivalent to Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Direct me to the Atheist version of Mother Theresa.
i ask these things not to make blanket indictments of Atheists as i have known many whose company i enjoy. They are just honest questions.
Religion cannot be blamed for murder, bombings, violence... but somehow all the good things can be attributed to religion? It's a two way street, imo.
I don't know about the states but here there are a lot of shelters and soup kitchens that have nothing to do with religion.
First of all, i never said that ALL goodness in the world stems from religion.
Secondly, no, it is not a two way street and this is why. In the case of the organizations and individuals i mentioned (which are only a few of many), their ambitions and mission statements are all inspired, endorsed, and driven by scripture and religious teaching. There is a scriptural base fowhat they have accomplished and are accomplishing. Therefore it is safe to safe they are influenced by religion. Their actions are inspired by religious teachings. The Bible, for example, is filled, with love your neighbor, feed the hungry, help the poor and downtrodden. Its all right there, and this is what these organizations do. When discussing the impact of religion and spiritual faith, you, and others, never seem to mention any of these individuals.
What you DO seem to try and do is blame all the worlds war, hatred, bigotry, and famine on religion by citing fuckers like Hitler, when all you have is "Ich bin eine catholic". No scripture or religious teaching AT ALL to support their infamy. No where in the bible, does it say "steal, maim, pillage, exploit, destroy, and exterminate 6 million Jews". NO WHERE. Religion can in no way be blamed for any of their crap as it is found nowhere in reliogious teaching. In fact what religion DOES teach, is the polar opposite!!
Next, its good to hear that where you live their are secular homeless shelters. Here in the States, they are predominantly overtly religiously based organizations. What i asked for however, is an organization that is Atheistcally based. Not just secular. There is a difference.
Also, the link you provided may be interesting if you are interested in reading prejudicial crap about how stupid people of faith are. Perhaps i need to look a little harder, but, honestly, upon initial browsing, i found little else there. Certainly no information about Atheist individuals or organizations who are proactively impacting our world in a positive way such as Dr, King did or Habitat for Humanity is doing now. Definitely nothing near their equivalent.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
First of all, i never said that ALL goodness in the world stems from religion.
Secondly, no, it is not a two way street and this is why. In the case of the organizations and individuals i mentioned (which are only a few of many), their ambitions and mission statements are all inspired, endorsed, and driven by scripture and religious teaching. There is a scriptural base fowhat they have accomplished and are accomplishing. Therefore it is safe to safe they are influenced by religion. Their actions are inspired by religious teachings. The Bible, for example, is filled, with love your neighbor, feed the hungry, help the poor and downtrodden. Its all right there, and this is what these organizations do. When discussing the impact of religion and spiritual faith, you, and others, never seem to mention any of these individuals.
Muslims extremists kill in the name of Allah because the way they (mis)interpret the holy Qur'an. There are Christians who do "evil" things because the way they (mis)interpret the holy Bible, for example, the Westboro Baptist Church. You cannot deny these people's actions aren't inspired by the Qur'an or the Bible. I don't consider these people to be true Muslims or Christians because I believe their actions go up against the teachings of Muhammed and Jesus. They are, however, Muslims and Christians and there's nothing you can do or say that will change that.
I know it's not meant personally but I do mention these individuals. I will never deny the wonderful things religion has done but nor will I deny the horrible things. Dr. King is even in my sig.
What you DO seem to try and do is blame all the worlds war, hatred, bigotry, and famine on religion by citing fuckers like Hitler, when all you have is "Ich bin eine catholic".
That's not true.
No scripture or religious teaching AT ALL to support their infamy. No where in the bible, does it say "steal, maim, pillage, exploit, destroy, and exterminate 6 million Jews". NO WHERE. Religion can in no way be blamed for any of their crap as it is found nowhere in reliogious teaching. In fact what religion DOES teach, is the polar opposite!!
I truly wish everyone would interpret the Bible as you do, but unfortunately there are people who don't, they find ways to (mis)interpret certain parts.
I also think the OT isn't as peaceful.
Next, its good to hear that where you live their are secular homeless shelters. Here in the States, they are predominantly overtly religiously based organizations. What i asked for however, is an organization that is Atheistcally based. Not just secular. There is a difference.
Religiously based organisations mention that their organisation is religiously based to show people the teachings of their religion. Why would atheist mention that their organisation is atheist based? For that reason, I think there's a fine line between atheist and secular organisations.
Also, the link you provided may be interesting if you are interested in reading prejudicial crap about how stupid people of faith are.
I'm sorry you feel that way.
Perhaps i need to look a little harder, but, honestly, upon initial browsing, i found little else there. Certainly no information about Atheist individuals or organizations who are proactively impacting our world in a positive way such as Dr, King did or Habitat for Humanity is doing now. Definitely nothing near their equivalent.
Again, if I want to start an organisation to improve the world, I won't mention atheism, I don't see the point of it, why would I mention it?
I don't know exactly what you are trying to prove here...
I truly wish everyone would interpret the Bible as you do, but unfortunately there are people who don't, they find ways to (mis)interpret certain parts.
I also think the OT isn't as peaceful.
There are some things you just can't get around in the bible. The misogyny is palpable. Children are treated badly. Homosexuality is an "abomination." You could treat your wife as though you owned her, beat your children, and be opposed to any type of gay rights, and still be quite a fine Christian, according to the bible.
Religiously based organisations mention that their organisation is religiously based to show people the teachings of their religion. Why would atheist mention that their organisation is atheist based? For that reason, I think there's a fine line between atheist and secular organisations.
Agreed! If I were going to start a foundation, why would I do it in the name of something I DON'T believe in? That's all atheism is, the lack of a belief in god, it's not any sort of organized belief system in itself. I may as well found a charity based on my lack of belief in unicorns. It makes no sense.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
I'm talking about parents who have the same twisted intent as Manson.
You mean parents who deliberately instigate and encourage their children to murder a group of people in order to start a global race war? I'm not too sure that's a common concern, or a concern, period. But yeah, when that happens, I'm all for holding the parents accountable.
At the same time, I realize there are parents who raise their children to go to war and kill others, teaching them this is just and honourable and an issue of god-fearing patriotism. In this kind of situation, the law sees a very different spirit of belief and even what many consider as integrity behind it. This view is widely culturally sanctioned in North America. Granted, I don't buy into such beliefs, personally, and I sure didn't teach them to my kids.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Muslims extremists kill in the name of Allah because the way they (mis)interpret the holy Qur'an. There are Christians who do "evil" things because the way they (mis)interpret the holy Bible, for example, the Westboro Baptist Church. You cannot deny these people's actions aren't inspired by the Qur'an or the Bible. I don't consider these people to be true Muslims or Christians because I believe their actions go up against the teachings of Muhammed and Jesus. They are, however, Muslims and Christians and there's nothing you can do or say that will change that.
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Collin, in all due respect, your argument here just doesn't work. It simply doesn't. Suppose a Pearl Jam fan goes insane, listens to Yield and swears he hears Ed in the lyrics say to kill his parents. He does. Can you blame Pearl Jam for their deaths? Can you blame Yield? Of course not! It simply isn't there! He may have a closet full of t-shirts, a stickman tattoo, and a complete bootleg collection. He claims Ed inspired him to kill his parents. But there is nothing to substantiate his claim! Nothing! Ed can't be blamed. Nothing in the Bible can be interpreted as "kill, maim, destroy, and commit genocide". It isn't there! Jesus insisted we love our worst enemies, help the poor and feed the hungry. It isn't even open to interpretation! Christianity cannot be blamed. It simply can't no matter how hard you try.
Suppose a teenage PJ fan shoots all his classmates and then himself and leaves a note citing the Jeremy song and video. Authorities also try to blame Ed and company. At least there is a song and video to support that, but it is still not plausible to blame PJ because of some sick kids interpretation. Are you old enough to remember some years back when some kid killed himself and authorities blamed Ozzy Osbourne. Stoners everywhere were absolutely furious. With reason. It doesn't work, Collin. It just doesn't work.
Enjoy the rest of your day.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
There are some things you just can't get around in the bible. The misogyny is palpable. Children are treated badly. Homosexuality is an "abomination." You could treat your wife as though you owned her, beat your children, and be opposed to any type of gay rights, and still be quite a fine Christian, according to the bible.
That's a pretty old testament view of the bible.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
...
There's something else that has always confused me... the explanation that the Old Testament is not to be adhered to. Aren't the Ten Commandments and the story Creation in the Old Testament? The Old Testament is where the homosexuals are killed... along with the adulterers and the people who work on the Sabbath. Why are these things discounted and why are they still part of the religion?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
There's something else that has always confused me... the explanation that the Old Testament is not to be adhered to. Aren't the Ten Commandments and the story Creation in the Old Testament? The Old Testament is where the homosexuals are killed... along with the adulterers and the people who work on the Sabbath. Why are these things discounted and why are they still part of the religion?
Christianity from it's outset includes the new testament. There was no christian faith prior to Jesus and the new tetament pretty much starts with his birth. So I'm unclear how anyone can, when discussing christian tenets, can only refer to the old testament.
It all comes down to how the bible is interpretted though. As the Jewish faith is strictly old testament and they haven't seemed to have had the issues with homosexuality that some christians have. Given what the new testament says I'm not sure how any christian makes a big deal about homosexuality other than churches not wanting to perform gay marriages.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
Every Christian church I've ever been to still reads from the old testament. It's not been disavowed by any of them, to my knowledge.
I don't have a bible handy here at work, but you don't even need the old testament for the blatant misogyny. My favorite is where Peter orders wives to submit to their husbands and compares a marriage to a master/slave relationship. Which reminds me, I forgot to mention slavery! You can keep human beings in bondage and still be a good Christian.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
Every Christian church I've ever been to still reads from the old testament. It's not been disavowed by any of them, to my knowledge.
I don't have a bible handy here at work, but you don't even need the old testament for the blatant misogyny. My favorite is where Peter orders wives to submit to their husbands and compares a marriage to a master/slave relationship. Which reminds me, I forgot to mention slavery! You can keep human beings in bondage and still be a good Christian.
the passage you are referring to says wife's submit to your husbands AND conveniently people leave out these parts of the passage...to me this is the ideal marriage. Men and women respecting each other and totally committing to each other...it's a 2 way street.
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; (this calls men to love their wife enough to die for her)
So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
And slavery...slaves were also let go every 7 years. But yes, the OT recognizes slavery
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
...
There's something else that has always confused me... the explanation that the Old Testament is not to be adhered to. Aren't the Ten Commandments and the story Creation in the Old Testament? The Old Testament is where the homosexuals are killed... along with the adulterers and the people who work on the Sabbath. Why are these things discounted and why are they still part of the religion?
if you're really interested read this information on the covenants of God
Also, the question you're dealing with has had thousands of pages written about it, it can't poss be answered or explained sufficiently on a message board.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
the passage you are referring to says wife's submit to your husbands AND conveniently people leave out these parts of the passage...to me this is the ideal marriage. Men and women respecting each other and totally committing to each other...it's a 2 way street.
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; (this calls men to love their wife enough to die for her)
So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
And slavery...slaves were also let go every 7 years. But yes, the OT recognizes slavery
Loving someone enough to die for them, and that person submitting to your will ... that's a parent/child relationship, not one between equals. Also, the bible doesn't say to submit to your husband IF he loves you more than life itself ... you're supposed to submit anyway, and hope for the best I guess.
I agree, mutual respect, love and commitment is an ideal marriage, but that's not what the bible demands.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
Loving someone enough to die for them, and that person submitting to your will ... that's a parent/child relationship, not one between equals. Also, the bible doesn't say to submit to your husband IF he loves you more than life itself ... you're supposed to submit anyway, and hope for the best I guess.
I agree, mutual respect, love and commitment is an ideal marriage, but that's not what the bible demands.
it's not submitting to your will and whims. It's putting the other person first. And it should not be taken without the previous verse attached to it (esp if you follow greek translation...there is technically no verb in the Greek for that verse so in order for it to flow in English they had to use the verb from the previous verse about submitting to God) It means wives, respect your husbands just as you respect Christ. It's not elevating husbands to Christs level it's just showing a groundwork for respect. Again, it's not a one way street for men to boss women around...please understand that. A lot of men try to use it for that, but they are wrong.
edit: if you follow the biblical principle of marriage it is 2 people ignoring their own interests and working toward a common goal. If you love someone and are devoted to them you will make decisions out of selflessness.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
it's not submitting to your will and whims. It's putting the other person first. And it should not be taken without the previous verse attached to it (esp if you follow greek translation...there is technically no verb in the Greek for that verse so in order for it to flow in English they had to use the verb from the previous verse about submitting to God) It means wives, respect your husbands just as you respect Christ. It's not elevating husbands to Christs level it's just showing a groundwork for respect. Again, it's not a one way street for men to boss women around...please understand that. A lot of men try to use it for that, but they are wrong.
edit: if you follow the biblical principle of marriage it is 2 people ignoring their own interests and working toward a common goal. If you love someone and are devoted to them you will make decisions out of selflessness.
I just find it to be an interesting choice of words ... husbands love your wives, wives submit to your husbands. Nowhere does it turn it around and demand wives to love, or husbands to submit. Added to the passages such as "the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church," and the admonitions against women speaking in church, etc., it seems clear to me that an egalitarian society is not exactly what they have in mind.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
I just find it to be an interesting choice of words ... husbands love your wives, wives submit to your husbands. Nowhere does it turn it around and demand wives to love, or husbands to submit. Added to the passages such as "the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church," and the admonitions against women speaking in church, etc., it seems clear to me that an egalitarian society is not exactly what they have in mind.
it is an interesting choice of words. It prob would be better to say respect or something else. Sometimes in tranlsations we don't have words to capture the original intent of the other language. Take love, greek has a many words for love, we have one. take hate, again sometimes it means to despise other times it means to love less.
Also, some passages do say women shouldn't speak in churches, but if memory serves, those were in churches where the women were not following God's will and were corrupting the church so it was more prescriptive to that church. Taht's the hard thing about the bible; it's difficult to study.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
Also, the question you're dealing with has had thousands of pages written about it, it can't poss be answered or explained sufficiently on a message board.
...
Oh... I have talked to people in great length about Christianity, the Bible, The Church and so on... I am told that my questions won't be answered in an hour or two or in a week, month or year... or even in my lifetime. This, coming from many sources, including priests.
I figured... if these guys can't answer me... I'm going to have to figure it all out myself. They don't know the answers... no one knows. So, why bother asking them?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Comments
i don't want to get into the first points you bring up simply b/c that would be a huge discussion to undertake.
I think the only option, as christians is to try to be one. One of the basic tenents of Christianity is that we aren't good enough to get to heaven We try and fail and try and fail b/c we are not and cannot be perfect beings. We can be good beings, but in Christianity, good is not enough. If we could be good enough to get to heaven we wouldn't need Christ. I think that in our actions we try to be good to honor Christ (yet we fail all the time and i think we succeed at times, not to be too hard on people). The requisite for heaven is perfection, which no one can attain.
Then Heaven's population is 2. God and Jesus. Everyone else is in Hell.
...
Trying is kind of weak... in my book. You can try and try all you want... knowing that even if you fail, Jesus is there to get you off the hook. Persoanlly, I don't want to lay all my bullshit on Jesus... I don't believe He deserves that.
This is why I shun Christianity. I used to go to church and all that. I got tired of seeing the people ask forgiveness on Sunday and screw over other people on Monday.
So, I took my God and went out to find Him on my own.
I do good things and I do bad. I accept my bad actions as my own and don't dump them on Jesus' shoulders. The good things I do is not because there is some conditional acceptance from Jesus tied to it... I do it because it is the right thing to do. I do not believe Jesus' love is conditional. Same with God... I believe He will acccept me for my acts... not because I am looking for some sort of reward from Him in the end. I believe He will accept me along with all my faults and errors.
If I'm wrong and it does work that way... that I'm sent to Hell because I've got all of these unanswered questions... well... oh, well. If He is that vain... send me to Hell. With the rest of the entrie population of humans that has ever lived on Earth.
Hail, Hail!!!
I can't believe this thread is still going on. Here's the bottom line: mass murders are psychopaths. Religion doesn't even register with them. From Hitler to Stalin and Gacy to Dahmer--none of them gave a fuck about what the people they killed did on Sunday or Saturday.
Again... of the 6 million Jews murdered during the Holocaust... how many did Hitler kill, himself? I'll give you Gacy and Dahmer... but, God fearing Germans killed those Jews (under Hitler's command). Does, 'I vas jes followink orders' dismiss their guilt?
Hail, Hail!!!
well if you've been to church you know my response to your first statement.
sometimes i think the worst thing for christianity is christians themselves. Everyone screws up and everyone is not going to be perfect. If you put your faith in the actions of the people that go to church you will be let down, as it seems you have. The purpose of Christ in Christianity is that he took our sins (or bullshit, as you have said) so we could be perfect in Gods eyes. So we can come to him with all of our faults. If we tried to do it on our own, you'd be absolutely right, heaven would have very few people.
Which is where my confusion comes in.
The confusion of, why even bother if you know you got an escape clause built-in? This seems to be how many 'Christians' seem to be. I would have more faith in the Christian religion if more people who claim to be Christians, at least, tried to be more Christ-like, by taking His words and putting them into their actions.
The most recent act I can say that I have witnessed to be most Christ-like... the Amish forgiveness and acceptance after going through such a horrible ordeal. To me... that was absolutely AWESOME. I have nothing but the deepest respect for them and their religion. For me... that was a true display of Christianity.
But, don't look for me to becoming Amish any time soon. Although, I am looking closely into their religion and beliefs.
Hail, Hail!!!
i agree many christians do seem to operate under the escape clause mentality, but there are also many who don't. The reason you bother even with the so called escape clause is that you are working to be like Christ... Faith without works to back them up, isn't really faith at all; which is a whole different conversation. I agree christians do need to try to be more Christ-like, esp if they are proclaiming to be Christians. To me that is where people need to step up and not be afraid to call out someone who is operating under those pretenses. I think in a lot of ways the churches have failed b/c they don't hold people accountable or are afraid to come off judgemental, to other Christians. But i do implore you to not hold Christians to a ridiculous standard that they can't possibly meet. Every single Christian will let you down b/c Christians are still human and still imperfect...you'd havea tough time telling some of them that, but that's a different story. I agree with you about the Amish, they did a very noble and good thing and it was very Christ-like. I think the problem is, we tend to remember the Christians who screw up or let us down more so than the ones who don't.
No. But '"I vas jes followink orders"....because they would have killed me' does.
I am not at all up on bible stuff. I would like to hear specific stuff about homosexuality being wrong. In God's truth, all is perfect enduring Love. However there are many contexts removed from this purity, whereupon there can be arguments against homosexuality. The bottom line is we are all immersed in perfect abiding love in each moment--that is the reality. Anything that tells us otherwise is an illusion--we take the veils we see through to be the truth. There are perfect Divine reasons that it is this way, as well. And this goes for other religions that seem to act on evil, too.
We cannot use any words in the bible to justify killing, because we will be held to account for any killing that we do, no matter how much we excuse ourselves. The truth as I've seen it from spiritual experiences is that any form of "evil" that we know, from serial killing on, etc, is still 100% one with God. As a matter of fact, the ugliness and horror we perceive is an illusion. Our idea that this life is the only one we get is a big illusion, and therefore, since death is actually like taking off the oppressive coat of 3-dimensional limits and duality, death is glorious and liberating. I know people like to see this kind of view as naive. I know otherwise from personal experience.
What is crucial, though, is we are held to account for our each thought, word and deed. As we cross beyond our lives here, we will lose the illusions, and we will personally know, fully feel and understand EXACTLY how we have harmed others, and therefore many of us are in for a big shock of the most humbling beyond humbling kind. When we lose our arrogance and our egos and are face to face with truth, we are very, very, very small. I know this because I've faced this experience numerous times in this life--where I suddenly find myself face to face with God/Spirit/the Source, and I am shown awareness of the full far-reaching consequences of my actions. I am allowed to accept the fullness of my actions, both good and bad, and to become at-one with myself. I truly atone for my actions. To experience this, one knows that the truth of the God or the Source one is faced with is more true than 100 lifetimes on this planet.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
The way I see it is that "satan" exists in the potential for "bad", or "dark" or "wrong" on this level of existence. It is impersonal and beyond us, AND we can personalize it, and therefore act "evil". I agree entirely that we do something wrong and we "project" it onto someone else. Our consciousness splits reality into fragments that distort what we see.
Different people have different world views, so when people experience satan as outside of them and as separated from their own darkness, this is their worldview, their world and their experience. It is 100% valid as such. I have a different world view. Even when I experience "evil" in others, I look for how I am projecting this onto nature which just "is".
I credit God for my each accomplishment. I know God is my base, my Source and my foundation. If I am unplugged from my very Source, I am aligned only with my false ego-self. Such lone-alignment is very dark and painful for me, compared to being plugged into my stunning potential. I am thrilled that I am a creative being and that living my potential and my deepest dreams is perfectly aligned with life and creation. And when I step out of alignment, I will feel the discomfort I alone cause.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
You have a good argument. The crux of the problem is in the the way human beings handle their fears. The happier people are of the religious sort, but not necesarily because they handle their fears better.
Let me propose this: Children like to be frightened. They do! The whole scary monster thing is invigorating for those who embrace it. Children will embrace it in a healthy way known they are protected by their parents. Adults tend to be either offended or humored by those things that frighten them, or catch them off guard. In the extreme, those who are most offended by "frightening" things also tend to be those most agreeable to monomythic icons and also the most agreeable to dogmatic and rigid thinking.
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I think I need to add that there are many more ways to handle fear and fearful things than just humor, or offense. I guess I used these examples as a counter to the polemic suggestion of the post.
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I'm talking about parents who have the same twisted intent as Manson.
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Religion cannot be blamed for murder, bombings, violence... but somehow all the good things can be attributed to religion? It's a two way street, imo.
http://www.positiveatheism.org/tocindia.htm here's one interesting link. Took me about 3 seconds to find it.
I don't know about the states but here there are a lot of shelters and soup kitchens that have nothing to do with religion.
naděje umírá poslední
First of all, i never said that ALL goodness in the world stems from religion.
Secondly, no, it is not a two way street and this is why. In the case of the organizations and individuals i mentioned (which are only a few of many), their ambitions and mission statements are all inspired, endorsed, and driven by scripture and religious teaching. There is a scriptural base fowhat they have accomplished and are accomplishing. Therefore it is safe to safe they are influenced by religion. Their actions are inspired by religious teachings. The Bible, for example, is filled, with love your neighbor, feed the hungry, help the poor and downtrodden. Its all right there, and this is what these organizations do. When discussing the impact of religion and spiritual faith, you, and others, never seem to mention any of these individuals.
What you DO seem to try and do is blame all the worlds war, hatred, bigotry, and famine on religion by citing fuckers like Hitler, when all you have is "Ich bin eine catholic". No scripture or religious teaching AT ALL to support their infamy. No where in the bible, does it say "steal, maim, pillage, exploit, destroy, and exterminate 6 million Jews". NO WHERE. Religion can in no way be blamed for any of their crap as it is found nowhere in reliogious teaching. In fact what religion DOES teach, is the polar opposite!!
Next, its good to hear that where you live their are secular homeless shelters. Here in the States, they are predominantly overtly religiously based organizations. What i asked for however, is an organization that is Atheistcally based. Not just secular. There is a difference.
Also, the link you provided may be interesting if you are interested in reading prejudicial crap about how stupid people of faith are. Perhaps i need to look a little harder, but, honestly, upon initial browsing, i found little else there. Certainly no information about Atheist individuals or organizations who are proactively impacting our world in a positive way such as Dr, King did or Habitat for Humanity is doing now. Definitely nothing near their equivalent.
Muslims extremists kill in the name of Allah because the way they (mis)interpret the holy Qur'an. There are Christians who do "evil" things because the way they (mis)interpret the holy Bible, for example, the Westboro Baptist Church. You cannot deny these people's actions aren't inspired by the Qur'an or the Bible. I don't consider these people to be true Muslims or Christians because I believe their actions go up against the teachings of Muhammed and Jesus. They are, however, Muslims and Christians and there's nothing you can do or say that will change that.
I know it's not meant personally but I do mention these individuals. I will never deny the wonderful things religion has done but nor will I deny the horrible things. Dr. King is even in my sig.
That's not true.
I truly wish everyone would interpret the Bible as you do, but unfortunately there are people who don't, they find ways to (mis)interpret certain parts.
I also think the OT isn't as peaceful.
Religiously based organisations mention that their organisation is religiously based to show people the teachings of their religion. Why would atheist mention that their organisation is atheist based? For that reason, I think there's a fine line between atheist and secular organisations.
I'm sorry you feel that way.
Again, if I want to start an organisation to improve the world, I won't mention atheism, I don't see the point of it, why would I mention it?
I don't know exactly what you are trying to prove here...
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Agreed! If I were going to start a foundation, why would I do it in the name of something I DON'T believe in? That's all atheism is, the lack of a belief in god, it's not any sort of organized belief system in itself. I may as well found a charity based on my lack of belief in unicorns. It makes no sense.
At the same time, I realize there are parents who raise their children to go to war and kill others, teaching them this is just and honourable and an issue of god-fearing patriotism. In this kind of situation, the law sees a very different spirit of belief and even what many consider as integrity behind it. This view is widely culturally sanctioned in North America. Granted, I don't buy into such beliefs, personally, and I sure didn't teach them to my kids.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
There's something else that has always confused me... the explanation that the Old Testament is not to be adhered to. Aren't the Ten Commandments and the story Creation in the Old Testament? The Old Testament is where the homosexuals are killed... along with the adulterers and the people who work on the Sabbath. Why are these things discounted and why are they still part of the religion?
Hail, Hail!!!
It all comes down to how the bible is interpretted though. As the Jewish faith is strictly old testament and they haven't seemed to have had the issues with homosexuality that some christians have. Given what the new testament says I'm not sure how any christian makes a big deal about homosexuality other than churches not wanting to perform gay marriages.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
I don't have a bible handy here at work, but you don't even need the old testament for the blatant misogyny. My favorite is where Peter orders wives to submit to their husbands and compares a marriage to a master/slave relationship. Which reminds me, I forgot to mention slavery! You can keep human beings in bondage and still be a good Christian.
the passage you are referring to says wife's submit to your husbands AND conveniently people leave out these parts of the passage...to me this is the ideal marriage. Men and women respecting each other and totally committing to each other...it's a 2 way street.
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; (this calls men to love their wife enough to die for her)
So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
And slavery...slaves were also let go every 7 years. But yes, the OT recognizes slavery
if you're really interested read this information on the covenants of God
http://biblia.com/jesusbible/2samuel2b.htm
it traces info on the different covenants of God.
Also, the question you're dealing with has had thousands of pages written about it, it can't poss be answered or explained sufficiently on a message board.
I agree, mutual respect, love and commitment is an ideal marriage, but that's not what the bible demands.
it's not submitting to your will and whims. It's putting the other person first. And it should not be taken without the previous verse attached to it (esp if you follow greek translation...there is technically no verb in the Greek for that verse so in order for it to flow in English they had to use the verb from the previous verse about submitting to God) It means wives, respect your husbands just as you respect Christ. It's not elevating husbands to Christs level it's just showing a groundwork for respect. Again, it's not a one way street for men to boss women around...please understand that. A lot of men try to use it for that, but they are wrong.
edit: if you follow the biblical principle of marriage it is 2 people ignoring their own interests and working toward a common goal. If you love someone and are devoted to them you will make decisions out of selflessness.
it is an interesting choice of words. It prob would be better to say respect or something else. Sometimes in tranlsations we don't have words to capture the original intent of the other language. Take love, greek has a many words for love, we have one. take hate, again sometimes it means to despise other times it means to love less.
Also, some passages do say women shouldn't speak in churches, but if memory serves, those were in churches where the women were not following God's will and were corrupting the church so it was more prescriptive to that church. Taht's the hard thing about the bible; it's difficult to study.
Oh... I have talked to people in great length about Christianity, the Bible, The Church and so on... I am told that my questions won't be answered in an hour or two or in a week, month or year... or even in my lifetime. This, coming from many sources, including priests.
I figured... if these guys can't answer me... I'm going to have to figure it all out myself. They don't know the answers... no one knows. So, why bother asking them?
Hail, Hail!!!