Religion never takes away an individual's responsibility for using their own reasoning. At least no more so than family, sport team or political party affiliation, or the neighbour you live in does. Joining any group never takes away individual responsibility, it can only make you more easily swayed by group think or mob mentality. Now unless you think every sort of group should be done away with then you are unfiarly scapegoating religion.
It may not take away individual responsibility, but it can make people believe the horrible things they are doing are good things...
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What you are witnessing are individuals. There is no Atheist Doctrine that comes from an Atheist religion. Simply, individuals that do not believe in God, religion or church and do not not want any of those influences in their lives.
For me... that's their gig.
It's pretty clear to me that athiests and Christians are ALL individuals and as such, each one is completely accountable for their actions. Does anyone here propose that we take accountability away from the individual who practises a religion, and put that accountability on the institution of religion? If so, I would wonder for what purposes? Isn't the point to hold people accountable for their poor behaviour? I wonder what the purpose of holding an inhuman institution accountable would be. To me, it seems as though the only reason one would do so would be about personal emotional bias against that institution.
If the issue for many non-believers is that religion renders people as mindless followers who are encouraged to not question their own beliefs, then is it not encouraging such a non-responsibility stance to take the accountability off of the individual who CHOOSES and upholds such beliefs? When religion is blamed, those doing the blaming are also guilty for the problem when they absolve the "believers" of their actual accountability. Supporting and fuelling the problem remains part of the problem. To me, it is not acceptable to consider massive people worldwide as hapless victims of religion when such individuals CHOOSE to practise it. Further, the branch of psychology that studies human interactions considers that when we put people on a lowered victimhood plane in such a way indicates an imbalanced view on our part. ie: my choices are intelligent and considered, and the other guy's choices have been warped by the brainwashing of organized religion. Therefore I am "better" and "right".
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I love you. and wish I was smart enough to have gotten to this point without your help.
I love you too! It's not as much "smart" as it's that I'm currently reading a book that details levels of human evolution. The key point I see is that it's important that we perpetuate the truths that show personal bias in the light in which the personal bias exists--as being personally biased. The facts and information is beyond bias. People like Richard Dawkins and other "scientists" make a LOT of money rallying their "congregations" with emotional appeal. And ironically perpetuating what they seem to hate. Just like religion is not to blame, neither is science.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
So can families, so can supporting a soccer (look at soccer hooligans), so can political parties (look at Hitler's).
Families, yes. A soccer team, not so much, hooligans don't believe they are doing the right thing. Political parties, yes.
And I believe if you commit a crime because your parents taught you that, for example, all muslims are devious and dangerous animals and they should be killed, your parents are just as much to blame as you are and should be punished as well. You cannot punish religion, however, because that would be the same as punishing all parents because those parents who taught or trained their children to be murderers or psychos. But if a bunch of people start killing people because God told them to do so, I think it's potentially dangerous to deny religion had anything to do with it. Religion can make people do the most wonderful things but it can also make people do the most horrible things... well that's just my opinion anyway.
Using Cosmo's example of Hitler, please explain how the non-religipus German folks fell in line. People will use any excuse to support their deeds. Some people on this board follow "Ishmeal"-ism or so it seems, some "Ed"-ism.
Religion never takes away an individual's responsibility for using their own reasoning. At least no more so than family, sport team or political party affiliation, or the neighbour you live in does. Joining any group never takes away individual responsibility, it can only make you more easily swayed by group think or mob mentality. Now unless you think every sort of group should be done away with then you are unfiarly scapegoating religion.
Usign some of the reasoning on this board regarding religion we'd be able to hate blacks because they have a higher crime rate in the US so we could surmise that black people have done more harm than good. Then we could look at China, look at all the poverty and poorness created by the manufacturing jobs exported to China. Let's hate them too and wish they never existed, the world would be a better place without them.
Religion can never be blamed for specific acts by a specific individual, or even a very large group of individuals, particularly when those acts are directly contrary to the tenets of the religion.
What religion IS responsible for, I think, is fostering the mindset that accepting things on "faith" is a positive value. Your soccer team might want you to identify with it, but it knows it had better play well or large groups of it's fans will lose interest, and how well they play is readily discernable, you're not expected to have faith that they're playing well. Political parties are expected to have real ideas and put them into real action, and there is always debate involved, even within the party.
If you debate any religion long enough, you eventually come to the point where you have to accept it on faith and nothing more. People always point out that this is true of science as well ... that with physics or evolution or other areas, there comes a point where faith is involved. The big difference between the two as I see it is that the scientist is always ready to toss a theory out the window if new evidence comes in that contradicts it, whereas the religious person absolutely refuses to do this. This fosters a very sloppy way of thinking that allows the mind to be easily misled by all sorts of nonsense. The teachings of a religion itself may be harmless or even positive, but a mind that's trained from birth to accept things with no evidence whatsoever is easily led astray.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
Families, yes. A soccer team, not so much, hooligans don't believe they are doing the right thing. Political parties, yes.
And I believe if you commit a crime because your parents taught you that, for example, all muslims are devious and dangerous animals and they should be killed, your parents are just as much to blame as you are and should be punished as well. You cannot punish religion, however, because that would be the same as punishing all parents because those parents who taught or trained their children to be murderers or psychos. But if a bunch of people start killing people because God told them to do so, I think it's potentially dangerous to deny religion had anything to do with it. Religion can make people do the most wonderful things but it can also make people do the most horrible things... well that's just my opinion anyway.
I definitely agree that we must point to the distorted role of religion when it is involved in any kind of atrocity. Finding distorted beliefs, understanding them, and holding those who choose to act on them accountable when they act illegally or unethically is something I agree with. I also agree with intellectually challenging people on their beliefs if they are harmful in any way. The part that gets sticky is that we all like to believe we have the freedom to believe what we want. It's our basic will to do so, even if the entire planet disagrees with us. It's part of autonomy. Sometimes people choose to believe something we think is deplorable, and mostly, there is little we can do. We can however hold them accountable for harmful actions that spring from harmful beliefs.
I'm all for intelligently looking at these subjects and discussing the role of religion in people's lives, when poor actions result. Sometimes it's painfully clear that people come to such debate with a counter-productive attitude, though, and are harmful themselves. I accept those actions as much as I accept poor religion-fuelled harmful actions.
And, yikes! You think a parent should be held responsible for what an adult child does?
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
What religion IS responsible for, I think, is fostering the mindset that accepting things on "faith" is a positive value. Your soccer team might want you to identify with it, but it knows it had better play well or large groups of it's fans will lose interest, and how well they play is readily discernable, you're not expected to have faith that they're playing well. Political parties are expected to have real ideas and put them into real action, and there is always debate involved, even within the party.
The one thing that leaps out at me is that just like the soccer team needs to meet the expectations of those who frequent them or it loses it's appeal, so does religion reflect where it's people are in terms of meeting needs. I see a bottom line where religion is meeting a need that exists in humans. Religion in North America knows that it's people are also being taught rational discernment in school, to offset it's own faith (and that it has been taught for hundreds of years). Also, I hear how organized religion is losing it's grip in general, naturally. If this is true in terms of numbers, we might see new evolved forms evolve, (I already see vast evolutions in spirituality around me!) and we might see older views evolve, too, as humans evolve.
It's sometimes almost fashionable to assume religious individuals are brainwashed rather than recognize they are in their natural evolutionary place. We're ALL products of our environments, unless we become "enlightened" and escape such normal life cycles. This includes when we're intellectuals, or existentialists, or just plain practical. Our development is intimately connected to our environments.
Also, I want to say that I know many highly intelligent, logical, educated people who find much healthy purpose to organized religion. Such individuals are logical and yet have integrated a one-time more mythical view of religion into a new version--a healthy view. They are able to recognize nonsense and are able to therefore receive much social support, camaraderie, fellowship, inspiration, spiritual connection-avenues, etc. from organized worship.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
You said: "And I believe if you commit a crime because your parents taught you that, for example, all muslims are devious and dangerous animals and they should be killed, your parents are just as much to blame as you are and should be punished as well."
Are you referring to minor children?
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
"The problem with this critique is that it exaggerates the crimes attributed to religion, while ignoring the greater crimes of secular fanaticism. The best example of religious persecution in America is the Salem witch trials. How many people were killed in those trials? Thousands? Hundreds? Actually, fewer than 25. Yet the event still haunts the liberal imagination."
You can't compare the crusades to the witch trials.
You said: "And I believe if you commit a crime because your parents taught you that, for example, all muslims are devious and dangerous animals and they should be killed, your parents are just as much to blame as you are and should be punished as well."
Are you referring to minor children?
I don't think they should be held responsible for the actions of their children, but should be punished as well, for their own actions. Charles Manson is in jail yet he didn't kill anyone, he was convicted of conspiracy to commit murder. What's the difference?
I don't think they should be held responsible for the actions of their children, but should be punished as well. Charles Manson is in jail yet he didn't kill anyone, he was convicted of conspiracy to commit murder. What's the difference?
Are you talking about children who are not yet adults? Or do you mean also adult children?
If you are talking about children who are not adult and who commit crimes, parents are held accountable for them in numerous ways.
The way I see it, Charles Manson's intent was much different than the average parent who teaches their kids horrible things but who mean well and do it in good conscience. I think the spirit of the law understands that difference. Particularly our lawmakers who spend their lives assessing fine lines of accountability. I think the average person does not as easily see such difference.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
can we just say that screwed up people are behind the mass murders of history?
Everybody is wanting to know what music were the kids listening to, or what movies were they watching... Whatever happened to crazy? What, you can't be crazy no more? Should we eliminate crazy from the dictionary?
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
can we just say that screwed up people are behind the mass murders of history?
Everybody is wanting to know what music were the kids listening to, or what movies were they watching... Whatever happened to crazy? What, you can't be crazy no more? Should we eliminate crazy from the dictionary?
Even with a vast mental health history, I basically agree with you.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Even with a vast mental health history, I basically agree with you.
i mean we always try to put reasons why people do things...we have to blame something in our society. I was just so frustrated reading the thread with people saying it's religion, it's atheism etc... There are dangerous people who are religious, atheistic, repubs, dems, anarchists...and there are plenty of decent people who are religious, atheistic etc... it seems like we like to get in pissing matches about who the least screwed up is instead of figuring out how to not screw up again. sorry for the rant; it's one of those days.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
i mean we always try to put reasons why people do things...we have to blame something in our society. I was just so frustrated reading the thread with people saying it's religion, it's atheism etc... There are dangerous people who are religious, atheistic, repubs, dems, anarchists...and there are plenty of decent people who are religious, atheistic etc... it seems like we like to get in pissing matches about who the least screwed up is instead of figuring out how to not screw up again. sorry for the rant; it's one of those days.
Another thing I know from my mental health history is that no matter how delusional I've been, I was firmly held to accountability for my actions. In the issue of my accountability, my past and what brought me to such a place was irrelevent. My accountability for my actions WAS relevent. No one else is in charge of my actions--delusional or sane. For example, I was seriously disabled with delusions, but I was still expected to feed my children, being a single mom. This, even though I thought my kids and myself were ethereal beings who did not need human nourishment. I'm legally entitled to believe what I choose, but I am legally obliged to adequately care for my kids. My behaviour was questioned and analyzed and lines of action against me were put into play through proper channels. Granted my own strategizing was not in a great place and the strategies against me effectively led to my hospitalization and being medicated and thusly returned to normal functioning. I do not now, nor did I then have any problem with this type of common sense. If anything I realize all the more how important it is and that it is only fair to hold each individual to their accountability. Truth dictates it. And thank God accountability it helped me find better ways, whereas excuses and justifications did not.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Religious ferver short circuiting reason and cognitive thought? Thats rich. All i've done is counter your rantings about Hitler proving Christianity is responsible for the holocaust (which in no way resembles a cognitive thought, by the way) "with a little sugar on top". Deal with it. i have to read shit on here like "You and your fellow Christians... blah, blah, blah," and when i respond, I"M the one thats full of ferver and mindlessness!? Please. If i were to say " You and atheists like you know damn well that if you were to put down the bong, take John Lennon's "Imagine" off repeat in the CD player, step out into the world and open your eyes, you would see just how ful of shit you really are", i would be blasted for pages. Enough with the hypocrisy already. Just stop. in case you didn't notice, i agreed that Atheism cannot be blamed for Hitler.. I called such reasoning "ridiculous". Just as ridiculous as you postulating a BS hypothesis suggesting Christianity is responsible for the holocaust and Islam is responsible for 9/11 blah, blah, blah,...
Further more what does citing information from wikipedia regarding the Pol Pot regime do? Nothing. i know what happened under Pol POt just like i know what happened under Hitler. Pol Pot was a known atheist. If you are going to insist that Hitler stands "on my side of the fence" , then i will insist that Pol Pot stands on yours. You know what they say about people in glass houses...
*wanders off to create and market "Pol Pot = Atheism" bumper stickers*
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Wow... your comical rage is truely hilarious.
Let me dumb this down for you...
Fact: Hitler was a Christian. Therefore, you cannot blame his actions on Atheism. Read, 'Mein Kampf' and look at all of the references towards his belief in Christianity. Good Christian, Bad Christian? That's not my call to make. If it were, I would be able to determine if you were a Good Christian or a Bad one... I can't and I won't.
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I never said Christianity was the cause of the Holocaust. That is probably your religious guilt that brings you to that conclusion. I said, Hitler USED Christianity as justification to rid Europe of the 'Scourge of the Jew'. Just as these religious clerics use Islam to justify suicide bombings in Tel Aviv. Religious followers believe this shit, so shepperding the Jews into the gas chambers or blowing them us on busses is justified as God's work.
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And the Pol Pot thing was to refute your point that he was an Atheist...
About 85 percent of the population of Kampuchea follows the Theravada school of Buddhism. Buddhist, not atheist. The whole thing about the Khmer Rouge was to rid their peasant society of 'Reactionary Religions', such as Christianity and Islam and basically create a Buddhist Theocracy. Again, religion... one religion.. saying it is better than all of the others.
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and what's with your unhealthy infatuation with bongs?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Using Cosmo's example of Hitler, please explain how the non-religipus German folks fell in line. People will use any excuse to support their deeds. Some people on this board follow "Ishmeal"-ism or so it seems, some "Ed"-ism.
Religion never takes away an individual's responsibility for using their own reasoning. At least no more so than family, sport team or political party affiliation, or the neighbour you live in does. Joining any group never takes away individual responsibility, it can only make you more easily swayed by group think or mob mentality. Now unless you think every sort of group should be done away with then you are unfiarly scapegoating religion.
Usign some of the reasoning on this board regarding religion we'd be able to hate blacks because they have a higher crime rate in the US so we could surmise that black people have done more harm than good. Then we could look at China, look at all the poverty and poorness created by the manufacturing jobs exported to China. Let's hate them too and wish they never existed, the world would be a better place without them.
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Non-Religious people fell into line due to Nationalism... Pride in the restoration of the Fatherland. Something else Hitler was adept to tapping into.
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And are you saying that your favorite football team and the Republican party are on the same level of influence as your Christianity? I don't think so. For most people, genreally speaking... it is God first, not the Yankees. Well, knowing Yankees fans... that may be a basd example. Religion, generally speaking, is a great motivator... much greater than your neighborhood watch group. More people have killed in the name of their God, than in the name of their football team... except, of course, for the Raiders.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
It's pretty clear to me that athiests and Christians are ALL individuals and as such, each one is completely accountable for their actions. Does anyone here propose that we take accountability away from the individual who practises a religion, and put that accountability on the institution of religion? If so, I would wonder for what purposes? Isn't the point to hold people accountable for their poor behaviour? I wonder what the purpose of holding an inhuman institution accountable would be. To me, it seems as though the only reason one would do so would be about personal emotional bias against that institution.
If the issue for many non-believers is that religion renders people as mindless followers who are encouraged to not question their own beliefs, then is it not encouraging such a non-responsibility stance to take the accountability off of the individual who CHOOSES and upholds such beliefs? When religion is blamed, those doing the blaming are also guilty for the problem when they absolve the "believers" of their actual accountability. Supporting and fuelling the problem remains part of the problem. To me, it is not acceptable to consider massive people worldwide as hapless victims of religion when such individuals CHOOSE to practise it. Further, the branch of psychology that studies human interactions considers that when we put people on a lowered victimhood plane in such a way indicates an imbalanced view on our part. ie: my choices are intelligent and considered, and the other guy's choices have been warped by the brainwashing of organized religion. Therefore I am "better" and "right".
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I'm not saying that religion should be disbanded. Never said that, never felt that way. I believe Hope and faith in people's lives is a good thing.
I know that religion does a lot of good for people and that religious people are not all mindless sheep. But, religion is such a great influence in people's lives, that it can be warped to the point where you send young men off to kill in the name of your Lord, cremate people as part of God's work or blow up yourself in a city bus in order to receive the promise of Heaven. Last time I checked, no one ever planted a bomb in a marketplace in the name of the Anaheim Angels.
I'm pretty sure those German Soldiers that ran those awful camps... and those horrible trains that lead to them... thought their actions were good and just for their country and their God. It wasn't so much of a 'Thou shalt not kill' thing, because the act was justified and their sins forgiven.
And look at our soldiers in Iraq... are they all atheists? What about 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' when you unleash a barrage of artillery fire in a structure where you know there are people? They are not godless monsters... they are soldiers. Motivaded by... Nationalism? Religion? Vengence? Duty?
Religion does a lot of good and I think most people understand that. It the whole belief that religion is ONLY good that take issue with. Religion is good, yet has motivated people to do bad things. Religion has to hold some of the responsibility for past actions... or quit trying to influence people.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
To me there is a very distinct differentiation here--there is a difference between the tenets of a religion instigating and causing death and destruction, and with people distorting such tenets for their sadly flawed and pathological purposes and causing death and destruction. Religion is responsible for what it specifically teaches. And further, religion is not responsible for how hostile, unbalanced individuals distort and mutate religion for opposite-to-religion purposes.
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Who's to say who is unbalanced and who is not? Cant't they all say that that are merely carrying out the religious orders, handed down from God?
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Personally, I think they are ALL unbalanced... Hitler, using Christianity against the Jews, Islamic clerics using Islam to justify a Jihad or President Bush claiming to seek advice from his 'Higher Father' on waging a War in Iraq. All of those people are assholes in my book. But, people believe them? Why? Because they use their faith to justiufy their actions.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
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Non-Religious people fell into line due to Nationalism... Pride in the restoration of the Fatherland. Something else Hitler was adept to tapping into.
Why do you (and others) make the assumption that Hitler's stick worked on religious people because of their religion and not due to their nationalism? It is such a biased mindset to adopt. In my opinion Hitler's crap worked because it preyed on ignorance, weakness, greed and peoples' fears. Believe it or not these human feelings and emotion are just as prevelant in relgious people as non-religious people.
I know that myself I do more than enough things that go against my christian beliefs. But they in no way make religion a bad thing, they only go to show what a bad role model for christianity I am.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
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Wow... your comical rage is truely hilarious.
Let me dumb this down for you...
Fact: Hitler was a Christian. Therefore, you cannot blame his actions on Atheism. Read, 'Mein Kampf' and look at all of the references towards his belief in Christianity.
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I never said Christianity was the cause of the Holocaust. That is probably your religious guilt that brings you to that conclusion. I said, Hitler USED Christianity as justification to rid Europe of the 'Scourge of the Jew'. Just as these religious clerics use Islam to justify suicide bombings in Tel Aviv. Religious followers believe this shit, so shepperding the Jews into the gas chambers or blowing them us on busses is justified as God's work.
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And the Pol Pot thing was to refute your point that he was an Atheist...
About 85 percent of the population of Kampuchea follows the Theravada school of Buddhism. Buddhist, not atheist. The whole thing about the Khmer Rouge was to rid their peasant society of 'Reactionary Religions', such as Christianity and Islam and basically create a Buddhist Theocracy. Again, religion... one religion.. saying it is better than all of the others.
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and what's with your unhealthy infatuation with bongs?
Comical Rage? i aint even mad. The bong thing is in reference to the fact you must be stoned out of your gourd to come up with this stuff.
"Pol Pot and his army, called the Khmer Rouge, came to power in Cambodia (Kampuchea) in 1975. He was named prime minister of the new communist government in 1976 and began a program of violent reform. The Khmer Rouge abolished currency, RELIGION and private property" http://www.who2.com/polpot.html
ALL religion. Either claim him, or stop trying to push Hitler off on me. Thats my only point.
Honestly i think this is a stupid argument i don't blame atheism or atheists for the actions of any one insane individual. As i've stated, (for the third time now in this thread) that would be ridiculous. i wish not to derail this conversation, but i will ask one more question (and then i'm done with this circle jerk).
To you or anyone else who foolishly, and blindly postulates that religion is the source of all things evil i ask this:
How many Atheist based shelters and soup kitchens are there?
What is the Atheist based equivalent to Habitat for Humanity?
Please point me to the Atheist Equivalent to Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Direct me to the Atheist version of Mother Theresa.
i ask these things not to make blanket indictments of Atheists as i have known many whose company i enjoy. They are just honest questions.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
i mean we always try to put reasons why people do things...we have to blame something in our society. I was just so frustrated reading the thread with people saying it's religion, it's atheism etc... There are dangerous people who are religious, atheistic, repubs, dems, anarchists...and there are plenty of decent people who are religious, atheistic etc... it seems like we like to get in pissing matches about who the least screwed up is instead of figuring out how to not screw up again. sorry for the rant; it's one of those days.
Wow! The voice of reason. Great post!!
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Why do you (and others) make the assumption that Hitler's stick worked on religious people because of their religion and not due to their nationalism? It is such a biased mindset to adopt. In my opinion Hitler's crap worked because it preyed on ignorance, weakness, greed and peoples' fears. Believe it or not these human feelings and emotion are just as prevelant in relgious people as non-religious people.
I know that myself I do more than enough things that go against my christian beliefs. But they in no way make religion a bad thing, they only go to show what a bad role model for christianity I am.
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I wasn't in Germany in 1936... I don't know.
The only point i am making is that Hitler claimed to be a religious person. He used his Christian religion as a basis for his goals. To make the claim that he had nothing to do with religion flies in the face of the truth. I am in no position to say he was 'really a Christian or not' because I don't know.
And YES... Hitler did use people's ignorance, weaknesses, fear, hatred and FAITH to mobilize his military nightmare on the rest of Europe. Religion was not the only motivation... but, it clearly was one of the motivating factors he employed.
Germany's motivation was National pride in a nation that was blessed by God.
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And I believe you are being honest when you say that you knowingly do things you know go against your Christian beliefs... I'm guessing that the majority of Christians do this. Most of the Christians I know don't follow the tenents of Christianity.
For me... if that were the case... I would not consider myself a Christian.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Comical Rage? i aint even mad. The bong thing is in reference to the fact you must be stoned out of your gourd to come up with this stuff.
"Pol Pot and his army, called the Khmer Rouge, came to power in Cambodia (Kampuchea) in 1975. He was named prime minister of the new communist government in 1976 and began a program of violent reform. The Khmer Rouge abolished currency, RELIGION and private property" http://www.who2.com/polpot.html
ALL religion. Either claim him, or stop trying to push Hitler off on me. Thats my only point.
Honestly i think this is a stupid argument i don't blame atheism or atheists for the actions of any one insane individual. As i've stated, (for the third time now in this thread) that would be ridiculous. i wish not to derail this conversation, but i will ask one more question (and then i'm done with this circle jerk).
To you or anyone else who foolishly, and blindly postulates that religion is the source of all things evil i ask this:
How many Atheist based shelters and soup kitchens are there?
What is the Atheist based equivalent to Habitat for Humanity?
Please point me to the Atheist Equivalent to Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Direct me to the Atheist version of Mother Theresa.
i ask these things not to make blanket indictments of Atheists as i have known many whose company i enjoy. They are just honest questions.
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I think you have made several servere errors here in your assessment of me. Probably due to your prejudicial stereotyping of what an Atheist is.
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I believe in God. I guess that makes me an atheist in your book.
I believe in the teaching of Jesus Christ. The guy had it figured out and laid out a pretty good basis for us to live our lives. Again, something that Atheists believe, right?
I do not know if Jesus was ressurrected or if He is our Savior.
I don't trust the Church because it has proven to me, time and time again that it is basically a large governing body that is run by men seeking power and influence and therefore, a corruptible entity.
I do not trust the Bible because it was in the hands of the Church for too long and who knows what they did to its truths.
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It is not my place to say who is a good Christian and who is not. And I do not believe you were given that authority, either.
Christianity is a religion... as so is Islam, Hinduism and Scientology. I do not prescribe to any of them because they all claim to have all the answers and negate the beliefs of the other religions.
I don't care if others find religion. If they do... good for them. Organized Religion is just not my gig.
Religions do a lot of good... but, they have done an awful lot of bad. To pretend they are only good and that Man is responsible for everything means that religion is not doing a very good job teaching Man and is therefore, a failing institution.
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Say what you want... who really cares? I don't. I you want to pretend you are all sweetness and light... I don't care.
Personally... you bore me, now. I'm done talking to you.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
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Who's to say who is unbalanced and who is not? Cant't they all say that that are merely carrying out the religious orders, handed down from God?
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Personally, I think they are ALL unbalanced... Hitler, using Christianity against the Jews, Islamic clerics using Islam to justify a Jihad or President Bush claiming to seek advice from his 'Higher Father' on waging a War in Iraq. All of those people are assholes in my book. But, people believe them? Why? Because they use their faith to justiufy their actions.
My point is that tenets that do not encourage death and destruction cannot be responsible for death and destruction no matter how we slice it. People can say whatever they want, they can blame whomever, or whatever they choose for they bad behaviour. That's one thing. If we want to support fallacy, if we are unable to discern the difference between a falsehood and accountability, I see that as us contributing to the problem. In the end, only the accountable can truly be held accountable. Fallacy cannot stand, as it's an illusion.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
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I'm not saying that religion should be disbanded. Never said that, never felt that way. I believe Hope and faith in people's lives is a good thing.
I know that religion does a lot of good for people and that religious people are not all mindless sheep. But, religion is such a great influence in people's lives, that it can be warped to the point where you send young men off to kill in the name of your Lord, cremate people as part of God's work or blow up yourself in a city bus in order to receive the promise of Heaven. Last time I checked, no one ever planted a bomb in a marketplace in the name of the Anaheim Angels.
I'm pretty sure those German Soldiers that ran those awful camps... and those horrible trains that lead to them... thought their actions were good and just for their country and their God. It wasn't so much of a 'Thou shalt not kill' thing, because the act was justified and their sins forgiven.
And look at our soldiers in Iraq... are they all atheists? What about 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' when you unleash a barrage of artillery fire in a structure where you know there are people? They are not godless monsters... they are soldiers. Motivaded by... Nationalism? Religion? Vengence? Duty?
Religion does a lot of good and I think most people understand that. It the whole belief that religion is ONLY good that take issue with. Religion is good, yet has motivated people to do bad things. Religion has to hold some of the responsibility for past actions... or quit trying to influence people.
I did reply to your post, and was operating off of what you said about individuals and atheism, and yet I didn't mean for my response to be as much to you as to everyone. I apologize if I was misleading.
I see a lot of craziness done in the name of religion. Seriously, I can't believe some of the people I know and what they justify, and sometimes in God's name. And the killing thing--that's just completely distorted and people entitle themselves to mutate base religious law. It's sickening to me. And yet, I've made a ton of shamefull errors myself in my life. What I see is that the truths in religion are pure and beautiful, but once perfect truth trickles down to this earth plane, we completely distort everything. It's the nature of the beast here--duality: good/bad. I agree much bad is done in the name of religion. However, I've had a ton of mystical experiences wherein I've been honoured with seeing some of the dazzling truths firsthand and man, words just cannot do justice to these truths. And just thinking about them, I distort them from their mesmerizing perfection. The fact remains, in this level of existence, there can be great beauty, there is great ugliness, and all kinds of degrees in between. I think we can agree on that. There is the dark side to everything, including in religion. The idea of the devil represents this dark side that exists to us. But the fact of the matter is that until we learn to heal our own dualistic view living in this 3-d dimension, or until we are beyond this physical life, we'll just have to live with the good and the bad. And we're all accountable for our actions, no matter what rationalization or justification we give for atrocity.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
My point is that tenets that do not encourage death and destruction cannot be responsible for death and destruction no matter how we slice it. People can say whatever they want, they can blame whomever, or whatever they choose for they bad behaviour. That's one thing. If we want to support fallacy, if we are unable to discern the difference between a falsehood and accountability, I see that as us contributing to the problem. In the end, only the accountable can truly be held accountable. Fallacy cannot stand, as it's an illusion.
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A couple of cases in point:
1. The relentless use of the Bible stating that homosexuality is an abomination. It says it right there in Leviticus. So, taken at face value, if you believe Leviticus.. then, God does, indeed, hate fags.
Is the religion wrong or the Reverend Phelps and his congregation?
2. The use of Jihad in the Koran. No, not knowing the Koran so well, I cannot say one way or the other. I do know that this is often used as a justification by followers of Islam to wage acts of violence towards 'infidels'. Since I don't know, is this the religion... even when the religious leaders call for it... or the fault of the follower who is called to commit the act?
3. 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'. It is right there... in the Ten Commandmants. We all know this. As Christians... and as a Christian nation... how do we explain the Death Penalty and soldiers, killing in our name? Where is the waiver that states we CAN kill in these specific cases?
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We should either stick to the tenents of the religions we claim to be... or accept the idea that we do not follow religion. Or is Religion one of those things where you're okay... as long as you 'try'. Because, to me... you don't 'try' to be a good person... you either are or you aren't. Is it possilble to try to be Christian... and still claim to be Christian?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I did reply to your post, and was operating off of what you said about individuals and atheism, and yet I didn't mean for my response to be as much to you as to everyone. I apologize if I was misleading.
I see a lot of craziness done in the name of religion. Seriously, I can't believe some of the people I know and what they justify, and sometimes in God's name. And the killing thing--that's just completely distorted and people entitle themselves to mutate base religious law. It's sickening to me. And yet, I've made a ton of shamefull errors myself in my life. What I see is that the truths in religion are pure and beautiful, but once perfect truth trickles down to this earth plane, we completely distort everything. It's the nature of the beast here--duality: good/bad. I agree much bad is done in the name of religion. However, I've had a ton of mystical experiences wherein I've been honoured with seeing some of the dazzling truths firsthand and man, words just cannot do justice to these truths. And just thinking about them, I distort them from their mesmerizing perfection. The fact remains, in this level of existence, there can be great beauty, there is great ugliness, and all kinds of degrees in between. I think we can agree on that. There is the dark side to everything, including in religion. The idea of the devil represents this dark side that exists to us. But the fact of the matter is that until we learn to heal our own dualistic view living in this 3-d dimension, or until we are beyond this physical life, we'll just have to live with the good and the bad. And we're all accountable for our actions, no matter what rationalization or justification we give for atrocity.
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You and I are on the same page here.
I don't believe in Satan... only God. I believe that Satan is an entity originally created by Man to give Man an excuse to lay his faults upon. To me... Satan and Man are the same thing. That isn't Satan tempting you to cheat on your tax return, lie to that gal in order to bang her or knowingly keeping the extra 10 that the cashier mistakenly gave you... it is you. You cannot blame bad acts on Satan. Those are your deeds and you need to accept them as such.
On the other hand... I don't credit God for my accomplishments. God does not let one team in the World Series win over the other and He does not direct who wins a Grammy. I thank God for this life and the things I find in this world. It is up to me to figure out what to do with them.
And yeah... no one is perfect. We are human... errors are part of our being. Our religions are created by Man, be it the authors of the Bible, the Gospels or L.Ron Hubbard and contain the same flaws that reside in us.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Comments
It may not take away individual responsibility, but it can make people believe the horrible things they are doing are good things...
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when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
If the issue for many non-believers is that religion renders people as mindless followers who are encouraged to not question their own beliefs, then is it not encouraging such a non-responsibility stance to take the accountability off of the individual who CHOOSES and upholds such beliefs? When religion is blamed, those doing the blaming are also guilty for the problem when they absolve the "believers" of their actual accountability. Supporting and fuelling the problem remains part of the problem. To me, it is not acceptable to consider massive people worldwide as hapless victims of religion when such individuals CHOOSE to practise it. Further, the branch of psychology that studies human interactions considers that when we put people on a lowered victimhood plane in such a way indicates an imbalanced view on our part. ie: my choices are intelligent and considered, and the other guy's choices have been warped by the brainwashing of organized religion. Therefore I am "better" and "right".
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http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
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Families, yes. A soccer team, not so much, hooligans don't believe they are doing the right thing. Political parties, yes.
And I believe if you commit a crime because your parents taught you that, for example, all muslims are devious and dangerous animals and they should be killed, your parents are just as much to blame as you are and should be punished as well. You cannot punish religion, however, because that would be the same as punishing all parents because those parents who taught or trained their children to be murderers or psychos. But if a bunch of people start killing people because God told them to do so, I think it's potentially dangerous to deny religion had anything to do with it. Religion can make people do the most wonderful things but it can also make people do the most horrible things... well that's just my opinion anyway.
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What religion IS responsible for, I think, is fostering the mindset that accepting things on "faith" is a positive value. Your soccer team might want you to identify with it, but it knows it had better play well or large groups of it's fans will lose interest, and how well they play is readily discernable, you're not expected to have faith that they're playing well. Political parties are expected to have real ideas and put them into real action, and there is always debate involved, even within the party.
If you debate any religion long enough, you eventually come to the point where you have to accept it on faith and nothing more. People always point out that this is true of science as well ... that with physics or evolution or other areas, there comes a point where faith is involved. The big difference between the two as I see it is that the scientist is always ready to toss a theory out the window if new evidence comes in that contradicts it, whereas the religious person absolutely refuses to do this. This fosters a very sloppy way of thinking that allows the mind to be easily misled by all sorts of nonsense. The teachings of a religion itself may be harmless or even positive, but a mind that's trained from birth to accept things with no evidence whatsoever is easily led astray.
I definitely agree that we must point to the distorted role of religion when it is involved in any kind of atrocity. Finding distorted beliefs, understanding them, and holding those who choose to act on them accountable when they act illegally or unethically is something I agree with. I also agree with intellectually challenging people on their beliefs if they are harmful in any way. The part that gets sticky is that we all like to believe we have the freedom to believe what we want. It's our basic will to do so, even if the entire planet disagrees with us. It's part of autonomy. Sometimes people choose to believe something we think is deplorable, and mostly, there is little we can do. We can however hold them accountable for harmful actions that spring from harmful beliefs.
I'm all for intelligently looking at these subjects and discussing the role of religion in people's lives, when poor actions result. Sometimes it's painfully clear that people come to such debate with a counter-productive attitude, though, and are harmful themselves. I accept those actions as much as I accept poor religion-fuelled harmful actions.
And, yikes! You think a parent should be held responsible for what an adult child does?
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That's not what I said.
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It's sometimes almost fashionable to assume religious individuals are brainwashed rather than recognize they are in their natural evolutionary place. We're ALL products of our environments, unless we become "enlightened" and escape such normal life cycles. This includes when we're intellectuals, or existentialists, or just plain practical. Our development is intimately connected to our environments.
Also, I want to say that I know many highly intelligent, logical, educated people who find much healthy purpose to organized religion. Such individuals are logical and yet have integrated a one-time more mythical view of religion into a new version--a healthy view. They are able to recognize nonsense and are able to therefore receive much social support, camaraderie, fellowship, inspiration, spiritual connection-avenues, etc. from organized worship.
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You said: "And I believe if you commit a crime because your parents taught you that, for example, all muslims are devious and dangerous animals and they should be killed, your parents are just as much to blame as you are and should be punished as well."
Are you referring to minor children?
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Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
You can't compare the crusades to the witch trials.
The author is unbelievably biased.
http://www.wishlistfoundation.org
Oh my, they dropped the leash.
Morgan Freeman/Clint Eastwood 08' for President!
"Make our day"
I don't think they should be held responsible for the actions of their children, but should be punished as well, for their own actions. Charles Manson is in jail yet he didn't kill anyone, he was convicted of conspiracy to commit murder. What's the difference?
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Are you talking about children who are not yet adults? Or do you mean also adult children?
If you are talking about children who are not adult and who commit crimes, parents are held accountable for them in numerous ways.
The way I see it, Charles Manson's intent was much different than the average parent who teaches their kids horrible things but who mean well and do it in good conscience. I think the spirit of the law understands that difference. Particularly our lawmakers who spend their lives assessing fine lines of accountability. I think the average person does not as easily see such difference.
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Everybody is wanting to know what music were the kids listening to, or what movies were they watching... Whatever happened to crazy? What, you can't be crazy no more? Should we eliminate crazy from the dictionary?
Even with a vast mental health history, I basically agree with you.
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i mean we always try to put reasons why people do things...we have to blame something in our society. I was just so frustrated reading the thread with people saying it's religion, it's atheism etc... There are dangerous people who are religious, atheistic, repubs, dems, anarchists...and there are plenty of decent people who are religious, atheistic etc... it seems like we like to get in pissing matches about who the least screwed up is instead of figuring out how to not screw up again. sorry for the rant; it's one of those days.
Another thing I know from my mental health history is that no matter how delusional I've been, I was firmly held to accountability for my actions. In the issue of my accountability, my past and what brought me to such a place was irrelevent. My accountability for my actions WAS relevent. No one else is in charge of my actions--delusional or sane. For example, I was seriously disabled with delusions, but I was still expected to feed my children, being a single mom. This, even though I thought my kids and myself were ethereal beings who did not need human nourishment. I'm legally entitled to believe what I choose, but I am legally obliged to adequately care for my kids. My behaviour was questioned and analyzed and lines of action against me were put into play through proper channels. Granted my own strategizing was not in a great place and the strategies against me effectively led to my hospitalization and being medicated and thusly returned to normal functioning. I do not now, nor did I then have any problem with this type of common sense. If anything I realize all the more how important it is and that it is only fair to hold each individual to their accountability. Truth dictates it. And thank God accountability it helped me find better ways, whereas excuses and justifications did not.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
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Wow... your comical rage is truely hilarious.
Let me dumb this down for you...
Fact: Hitler was a Christian. Therefore, you cannot blame his actions on Atheism. Read, 'Mein Kampf' and look at all of the references towards his belief in Christianity. Good Christian, Bad Christian? That's not my call to make. If it were, I would be able to determine if you were a Good Christian or a Bad one... I can't and I won't.
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I never said Christianity was the cause of the Holocaust. That is probably your religious guilt that brings you to that conclusion. I said, Hitler USED Christianity as justification to rid Europe of the 'Scourge of the Jew'. Just as these religious clerics use Islam to justify suicide bombings in Tel Aviv. Religious followers believe this shit, so shepperding the Jews into the gas chambers or blowing them us on busses is justified as God's work.
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And the Pol Pot thing was to refute your point that he was an Atheist...
About 85 percent of the population of Kampuchea follows the Theravada school of Buddhism. Buddhist, not atheist. The whole thing about the Khmer Rouge was to rid their peasant society of 'Reactionary Religions', such as Christianity and Islam and basically create a Buddhist Theocracy. Again, religion... one religion.. saying it is better than all of the others.
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and what's with your unhealthy infatuation with bongs?
Hail, Hail!!!
Non-Religious people fell into line due to Nationalism... Pride in the restoration of the Fatherland. Something else Hitler was adept to tapping into.
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And are you saying that your favorite football team and the Republican party are on the same level of influence as your Christianity? I don't think so. For most people, genreally speaking... it is God first, not the Yankees. Well, knowing Yankees fans... that may be a basd example. Religion, generally speaking, is a great motivator... much greater than your neighborhood watch group. More people have killed in the name of their God, than in the name of their football team... except, of course, for the Raiders.
Hail, Hail!!!
I'm not saying that religion should be disbanded. Never said that, never felt that way. I believe Hope and faith in people's lives is a good thing.
I know that religion does a lot of good for people and that religious people are not all mindless sheep. But, religion is such a great influence in people's lives, that it can be warped to the point where you send young men off to kill in the name of your Lord, cremate people as part of God's work or blow up yourself in a city bus in order to receive the promise of Heaven. Last time I checked, no one ever planted a bomb in a marketplace in the name of the Anaheim Angels.
I'm pretty sure those German Soldiers that ran those awful camps... and those horrible trains that lead to them... thought their actions were good and just for their country and their God. It wasn't so much of a 'Thou shalt not kill' thing, because the act was justified and their sins forgiven.
And look at our soldiers in Iraq... are they all atheists? What about 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' when you unleash a barrage of artillery fire in a structure where you know there are people? They are not godless monsters... they are soldiers. Motivaded by... Nationalism? Religion? Vengence? Duty?
Religion does a lot of good and I think most people understand that. It the whole belief that religion is ONLY good that take issue with. Religion is good, yet has motivated people to do bad things. Religion has to hold some of the responsibility for past actions... or quit trying to influence people.
Hail, Hail!!!
Who's to say who is unbalanced and who is not? Cant't they all say that that are merely carrying out the religious orders, handed down from God?
...
Personally, I think they are ALL unbalanced... Hitler, using Christianity against the Jews, Islamic clerics using Islam to justify a Jihad or President Bush claiming to seek advice from his 'Higher Father' on waging a War in Iraq. All of those people are assholes in my book. But, people believe them? Why? Because they use their faith to justiufy their actions.
Hail, Hail!!!
I know that myself I do more than enough things that go against my christian beliefs. But they in no way make religion a bad thing, they only go to show what a bad role model for christianity I am.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
"Pol Pot and his army, called the Khmer Rouge, came to power in Cambodia (Kampuchea) in 1975. He was named prime minister of the new communist government in 1976 and began a program of violent reform. The Khmer Rouge abolished currency, RELIGION and private property"
http://www.who2.com/polpot.html
ALL religion. Either claim him, or stop trying to push Hitler off on me. Thats my only point.
Honestly i think this is a stupid argument i don't blame atheism or atheists for the actions of any one insane individual. As i've stated, (for the third time now in this thread) that would be ridiculous. i wish not to derail this conversation, but i will ask one more question (and then i'm done with this circle jerk).
To you or anyone else who foolishly, and blindly postulates that religion is the source of all things evil i ask this:
How many Atheist based shelters and soup kitchens are there?
What is the Atheist based equivalent to Habitat for Humanity?
Please point me to the Atheist Equivalent to Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Direct me to the Atheist version of Mother Theresa.
i ask these things not to make blanket indictments of Atheists as i have known many whose company i enjoy. They are just honest questions.
Wow! The voice of reason. Great post!!
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I wasn't in Germany in 1936... I don't know.
The only point i am making is that Hitler claimed to be a religious person. He used his Christian religion as a basis for his goals. To make the claim that he had nothing to do with religion flies in the face of the truth. I am in no position to say he was 'really a Christian or not' because I don't know.
And YES... Hitler did use people's ignorance, weaknesses, fear, hatred and FAITH to mobilize his military nightmare on the rest of Europe. Religion was not the only motivation... but, it clearly was one of the motivating factors he employed.
Germany's motivation was National pride in a nation that was blessed by God.
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And I believe you are being honest when you say that you knowingly do things you know go against your Christian beliefs... I'm guessing that the majority of Christians do this. Most of the Christians I know don't follow the tenents of Christianity.
For me... if that were the case... I would not consider myself a Christian.
Hail, Hail!!!
I think you have made several servere errors here in your assessment of me. Probably due to your prejudicial stereotyping of what an Atheist is.
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I believe in God. I guess that makes me an atheist in your book.
I believe in the teaching of Jesus Christ. The guy had it figured out and laid out a pretty good basis for us to live our lives. Again, something that Atheists believe, right?
I do not know if Jesus was ressurrected or if He is our Savior.
I don't trust the Church because it has proven to me, time and time again that it is basically a large governing body that is run by men seeking power and influence and therefore, a corruptible entity.
I do not trust the Bible because it was in the hands of the Church for too long and who knows what they did to its truths.
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It is not my place to say who is a good Christian and who is not. And I do not believe you were given that authority, either.
Christianity is a religion... as so is Islam, Hinduism and Scientology. I do not prescribe to any of them because they all claim to have all the answers and negate the beliefs of the other religions.
I don't care if others find religion. If they do... good for them. Organized Religion is just not my gig.
Religions do a lot of good... but, they have done an awful lot of bad. To pretend they are only good and that Man is responsible for everything means that religion is not doing a very good job teaching Man and is therefore, a failing institution.
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Say what you want... who really cares? I don't. I you want to pretend you are all sweetness and light... I don't care.
Personally... you bore me, now. I'm done talking to you.
Hail, Hail!!!
My point is that tenets that do not encourage death and destruction cannot be responsible for death and destruction no matter how we slice it. People can say whatever they want, they can blame whomever, or whatever they choose for they bad behaviour. That's one thing. If we want to support fallacy, if we are unable to discern the difference between a falsehood and accountability, I see that as us contributing to the problem. In the end, only the accountable can truly be held accountable. Fallacy cannot stand, as it's an illusion.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I did reply to your post, and was operating off of what you said about individuals and atheism, and yet I didn't mean for my response to be as much to you as to everyone. I apologize if I was misleading.
I see a lot of craziness done in the name of religion. Seriously, I can't believe some of the people I know and what they justify, and sometimes in God's name. And the killing thing--that's just completely distorted and people entitle themselves to mutate base religious law. It's sickening to me. And yet, I've made a ton of shamefull errors myself in my life. What I see is that the truths in religion are pure and beautiful, but once perfect truth trickles down to this earth plane, we completely distort everything. It's the nature of the beast here--duality: good/bad. I agree much bad is done in the name of religion. However, I've had a ton of mystical experiences wherein I've been honoured with seeing some of the dazzling truths firsthand and man, words just cannot do justice to these truths. And just thinking about them, I distort them from their mesmerizing perfection. The fact remains, in this level of existence, there can be great beauty, there is great ugliness, and all kinds of degrees in between. I think we can agree on that. There is the dark side to everything, including in religion. The idea of the devil represents this dark side that exists to us. But the fact of the matter is that until we learn to heal our own dualistic view living in this 3-d dimension, or until we are beyond this physical life, we'll just have to live with the good and the bad. And we're all accountable for our actions, no matter what rationalization or justification we give for atrocity.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
A couple of cases in point:
1. The relentless use of the Bible stating that homosexuality is an abomination. It says it right there in Leviticus. So, taken at face value, if you believe Leviticus.. then, God does, indeed, hate fags.
Is the religion wrong or the Reverend Phelps and his congregation?
2. The use of Jihad in the Koran. No, not knowing the Koran so well, I cannot say one way or the other. I do know that this is often used as a justification by followers of Islam to wage acts of violence towards 'infidels'. Since I don't know, is this the religion... even when the religious leaders call for it... or the fault of the follower who is called to commit the act?
3. 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'. It is right there... in the Ten Commandmants. We all know this. As Christians... and as a Christian nation... how do we explain the Death Penalty and soldiers, killing in our name? Where is the waiver that states we CAN kill in these specific cases?
...
We should either stick to the tenents of the religions we claim to be... or accept the idea that we do not follow religion. Or is Religion one of those things where you're okay... as long as you 'try'. Because, to me... you don't 'try' to be a good person... you either are or you aren't. Is it possilble to try to be Christian... and still claim to be Christian?
Hail, Hail!!!
You and I are on the same page here.
I don't believe in Satan... only God. I believe that Satan is an entity originally created by Man to give Man an excuse to lay his faults upon. To me... Satan and Man are the same thing. That isn't Satan tempting you to cheat on your tax return, lie to that gal in order to bang her or knowingly keeping the extra 10 that the cashier mistakenly gave you... it is you. You cannot blame bad acts on Satan. Those are your deeds and you need to accept them as such.
On the other hand... I don't credit God for my accomplishments. God does not let one team in the World Series win over the other and He does not direct who wins a Grammy. I thank God for this life and the things I find in this world. It is up to me to figure out what to do with them.
And yeah... no one is perfect. We are human... errors are part of our being. Our religions are created by Man, be it the authors of the Bible, the Gospels or L.Ron Hubbard and contain the same flaws that reside in us.
Hail, Hail!!!