I'm 25, atheist, living alone at an entry-level job and I'm quite happy. My life isn't all together, I'm malnourished, can't quit smoking and have some kind of sleep disorder, but all in all I'm pretty happy. The reason for this is just being happy. It's not all bad, I'm alive right?
I find things I can enjoy, like posting here, listening to music, learning and researching. There are many many things I would like to do that aren't quite in reach, but that won't get me down. I guess if I"m still alive when I"m 65, I'll be even happier to be alive.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I'm 25, atheist, living alone at an entry-level job and I'm quite happy. My life isn't all together, I'm malnourished, can't quit smoking and have some kind of sleep disorder, but all in all I'm pretty happy. The reason for this is just being happy. It's not all bad, I'm alive right?
I find things I can enjoy, like posting here, listening to music, learning and researching. There are many many things I would like to do that aren't quite in reach, but that won't get me down. I guess if I"m still alive when I"m 65, I'll be even happier to be alive.
look at it this way: you could be in a fox hole in Iraq.
Not going to read through everyone's replies. Just read the article and thought I'd pop in my two cents. The author's ludicrously interchangeable usage of "secular" and "atheist" just illustrates he doesn't have the first clue what either word actually means. I'm not even going to begin with his laughably skewed "understanding" of history.
Nonsense, beginning to end.
And just for the record, I'm an atheist who thinks Richard Dawkins is a moron.
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
The German invasion of the U.S.S.R was codenamed operation 'Barbarossa' after the German born Holy Roman Emperor Frederick I (1122 - 1190), called Barbarossa - meaning 'redbeard'.
that was possibly the stupidest thing I've ever read. Joseph Stalin was a single example of a psychotic person taking control of a vast nation, the same applies for Hitler. How can you pin that on atheism?
You can't. You can't pin it on religion or faith either. Both are equally ridiculous.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Fact is i don't know what Hitler held in his heart regarding God and whatnot (again his WORDS mean absolutely nothing). My point, is you simply cannot blame Christianity for the holocaust. You just can't. Regardless of what hitler believed. This is what you are ignorantly trying to do and you are full of fucking shit. Period.
...
Boy... here's an extreme case of denial of truth.
The truth that Hitler used the Christian religion to fuel Christian German Soldiers to put bullets in the ears of Jews in Buchenwald cannot be denied... no matter how much you want it to be. The Soldiers who wore belt buckles proclaiming 'Gott Mit Uns' (God With Us) and were not godless baby eating rapists. Yet, these soldiers carried out the orders and commited the horrible deeds.
You know... and your fellow Christians know... that HAD Hitler been an admitted Atheist, you and your religious fellowship would hold all Atheists responsible for the Holocaust. You would see Atheism synonymous with Nazism, right?
I have never stated that Christianity was responsible for the Holocaust... that is probably due to the years of religious guilt the church reigns down on you. I am saying that Christianity's hands are not clean, regarding the Holocaust and the responsible thing to do... in my book... is to accept it as one of the flaws of major organized religions... all organized religions... and learn from it so it never happens again. The flaw that normally good hearted Christians can be swayed by their belief into doing horrible things to others. To pretend it wasn't true means you haven't learned a damn thing... you stand there with clean hands, pretending it was some other belief system to blame... ready to repeat the same thing all over again.
No one wants Hitler on their side of the fence... I understand that. But, he clearly stands on the side of Christianity (if you consider Catholics as Christians), no matter how much you wish him to be on the Atheist side... deal with it, learn from it, do not repeat it.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Why is i when a religious person does something bad it's because of their beliefs, but when a non-religious person does something bad we don't blame their lack of belief?
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It all depends upon the deed... and the intent.
A guy straps on a bomb and steps onto a crowded city bus, cries out 'God is Great' and dentonates in in order to kill as many Jews as possible in a Jihad against his religion and his homeland.
A woman believes that her child is going to live a horrible life on this Earth and wants him to be with Jesus... so she smothers him in his sleep with a pillow.
...
Yes... in both cases, the individual is to blame and should be held for their actions. Are they nuts? Are they crazy because of their beliefs?
...
A kid comes into a classroom and shoots up the place because he was picked on by the jocks.
Would having religion in his life changed a thing?
Who knows... maybe... maybe not.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Would having religion in his life changed a thing?
Who knows... maybe... maybe not.
Perhaps sympathy, understanding and tolerance would have change something in all those lives.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Perhaps sympathy, understanding and tolerance would have change something in all those lives.
...
That is correct. And Religion is not a pre-requisite for sympathy, understanding and tolerance. I know several people who are kind and charitable and caring for people, animals and the environment who do not belong to any religion and some who do not believe in God.
I'm not anti-religion for others... I just haven't found a religion I can believe in. If someone chooses Islam or Christianity or Scientology... and it makes them happy... good for them. It's not my call to decide who should believe what.
I do not believe one religion has cornered the market on God's love... and that God accepts us for who we are and what we do... not what we believe.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
That is correct. And Religion is not a pre-requisite for sympathy, understanding and tolerance. I know several people who are kind and charitable and caring for people, animals and the environment who do not belong to any religion and some who do not believe in God.
I'm not anti-religion for others... I just haven't found a religion I can believe in. If someone choses Islam or Christianity or Scientology... and it make them happy... good for them. It's not my call to decide who should believe what.
I do not believe one religion has cornered the market on God's love... and that God accepts us for who we are and what we do... not what we believe.
That's a good perception of God.
A fellow I work with named "Rich" is a highly religious Christian. His belief is that all other belief systems are counterfeit. Islam, Buddhism, Catholic, etc.. he says they are all distorted versions of the truth. I argued that since the original stories were passed down verbally through many generations that the stone tablets are probably also distorted, thus the King James version he claims is genuine is probably also counterfeit. He didn't like that very much, so I said "Don't you think it's a little bigoted to say that all other religions are wrong?" he didn't like that much either. I had to end the conversation at that point, it was getting too heated for work.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Fact is i don't know what Hitler held in his heart regarding God and whatnot (again his WORDS mean absolutely nothing). My point, is you simply cannot blame Christianity for the holocaust. You just can't. Regardless of what hitler believed. This is what you are ignorantly trying to do and you are full of fucking shit. Period.
watch that language, corny.
that's a violation here.
say you are sorry!
9/98, 9/00 - DC, 4/03 - Pitt., 7/03 - Bristow, 10/04 - Reading, 10/05 - Philly, 5/06 - DC, 6/06 - Pitt., 6/08 - Va Beach, 6/08 - DC, 5/10 - Bristow, 10/13 B'more
8/08 - Ed solo in DC, 6/09 Ed in B'more,
10/10 - Brad in B'more
...
Boy... here's an extreme case of denial of truth.
The truth that Hitler used the Christian religion to fuel Christian German Soldiers to put bullets in the ears of Jews in Buchenwald cannot be denied... no matter how much you want it to be. The Soldiers who wore belt buckles proclaiming 'Gott Mit Uns' (God With Us) and were not godless baby eating rapists. Yet, these soldiers carried out the orders and commited the horrible deeds.
You know... and your fellow Christians know... that HAD Hitler been an admitted Atheist, you and your religious fellowship would hold all Atheists responsible for the Holocaust. You would see Atheism synonymous with Nazism, right?
I have never stated that Christianity was responsible for the Holocaust... that is probably due to the years of religious guilt the church reigns down on you. I am saying that Christianity's hands are not clean, regarding the Holocaust and the responsible thing to do... in my book... is to accept it as one of the flaws of major organized religions... all organized religions... and learn from it so it never happens again. The flaw that normally good hearted Christians can be swayed by their belief into doing horrible things to others. To pretend it wasn't true means you haven't learned a damn thing... you stand there with clean hands, pretending it was some other belief system to blame... ready to repeat the same thing all over again.
No one wants Hitler on their side of the fence... I understand that. But, he clearly stands on the side of Christianity (if you consider Catholics as Christians), no matter how much you wish him to be on the Atheist side... deal with it, learn from it, do not repeat it.
Pure bullshit. Every bit.
NOTHING in Christian teaching or scripture encourages the type of behavior Hitler demonstrated. Christianity cannot be blamed. That type of logic is abso-fucking-lutely ridiculous. Try to absorb this. i know its difficult for you. What Hitler said or what the Nazis had on their fucking belt-buckles means nothing.
But hey, if thats the way it has to be around here, i now declare Pol fucking Pot to be a shining example of Atheism and Atheistic behavior. Pol Pot is the worlds leading Atheist represrntative. Pack that in your bowl and smoke it.
Wake up. Your hatred has you completely blinded. Just like Hitler. i also declare that you are barely more enlightened than him.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
Blaming Hitler's action on his religion is as ridiculous as blaming it on his being German. His action were not promptedby either.
Correct. Which means blaming atheism for all the genocides is just as futile and ridiculous. I'm guessing that's the point here.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Pure bullshit. Every bit.
NOTHING in Christian teaching or scripture encourages the type of behavior Hitler demonstrated. Christianity cannot be blamed. That type of logic is abso-fucking-lutely ridiculous. Try to absorb this. i know its difficult for you. What Hitler said or what the Nazis had on their fucking belt-buckles means nothing.
But hey, if thats the way it has to be around here, i now declare Pol fucking Pot to be a shining example of Atheism and Atheistic behavior. Pol Pot is the worlds leading Atheist represrntative. Pack that in your bowl and smoke it.
Wake up. Your hatred has you completely blinded. Just like Hitler. i also declare that you are barely more enlightened than him.
You're missing the point, I think. The point is that Hitler considered himself very much a religious man, and used it a lot in his speeches and propaganda. That it was a distorted version of christianity, I do not doubt. I dont think anyone is saying Hitler is a shining example. But if we're gonna play the label game, Hitler was a christian, who (ab)used the religion actively in his politics and propaganda. Like his slogan for women's role in society: Kinder, Küche, Kirche. (Kids, Kitchen and Church) It doesn't say that christianity really encourages Hitler-like behaviour and policies.
I dont understand why you get so mad about it. Hitler was christian. None have proposed Hitler as the model christian, and a champion of all christianity. The whole thing started from the article, labelling Hitler as atheist, when that is actually wrong. That is what have been pointed out. Christians can also be bastards, against the article's premises.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Pure bullshit. Every bit.
NOTHING in Christian teaching or scripture encourages the type of behavior Hitler demonstrated. Christianity cannot be blamed. That type of logic is abso-fucking-lutely ridiculous. Try to absorb this. i know its difficult for you. What Hitler said or what the Nazis had on their fucking belt-buckles means nothing.
But hey, if thats the way it has to be around here, i now declare Pol fucking Pot to be a shining example of Atheism and Atheistic behavior. Pol Pot is the worlds leading Atheist represrntative. Pack that in your bowl and smoke it.
Wake up. Your hatred has you completely blinded. Just like Hitler. i also declare that you are barely more enlightened than him.
Wow, Cosmo writes two of the most enlightened, pursuasive fact based responses to this article in the thread, and all you've done is spit vitriol while calling him a hater. Religion is a symbol, people commit atrocities for their belt buckles just as easily as for their flag. Hitler used religion, and he used a lot of old German folklore to justify his Aerian race. People ate it up, symbols have a way of severing that nerve cord to the brain that makes us question our actions in the present. But thanks for making absolutely no valid points, being obscenely rude in response to tactful, well thought-out discussion, and in fact I think making everyone who read this thread a little dumber.
Correct. Which means blaming atheism for all the genocides is just as futile and ridiculous. I'm guessing that's the point here.
Peace
Dan
I fully agree with this. But I think if you took the time to notice you would find a re-occurring sentiment on this board that religion is bad and causes harm in the world.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
Pure bullshit. Every bit.
NOTHING in Christian teaching or scripture encourages the type of behavior Hitler demonstrated. Christianity cannot be blamed. That type of logic is abso-fucking-lutely ridiculous. Try to absorb this. i know its difficult for you. What Hitler said or what the Nazis had on their fucking belt-buckles means nothing.
But hey, if thats the way it has to be around here, i now declare Pol fucking Pot to be a shining example of Atheism and Atheistic behavior. Pol Pot is the worlds leading Atheist represrntative. Pack that in your bowl and smoke it.
Wake up. Your hatred has you completely blinded. Just like Hitler. i also declare that you are barely more enlightened than him.
...
This is a perfect example of religious ferver short circuiting reason and cognitive thought. Your childish, unsubstantiated tantrum is the SAME type of things we hear from these Muslims that try to convince us that the rants of Isalmic religious leaders, preaching death and destruction have nothing to do with the religion of Islam. They need to accept the fact that the religion of Islam is being used by influential men to advocate death and violence... JUST LIKE HITLER used Christianity in his quest to rid Europe of the 'Jewish Scourge'. True or false interpretations of the religion or not... the religion is being used to convince followers of that religion to act in ways that is contrary to what the religion actually teaches. That is the dark side of blind faith (religion)... the ability of some to convince the masses of what their destiny is.
Your attacks on me do nothing to me, because I don't give a fuck what you think of me... you simply shine a light on your own narrow little mind. You can go on and continue to pretend that the factual truths of the past do not exist, simply because you are too small of a man to accept them. But, wish as you may... your faith will never change those truths or make them go away.
...
Add... Regarding Pol Pot:
"People were executed for not working hard enough, complaining about living conditions, collecting or stealing food for their own use, wearing jewelry, having sexual relations, grieving over the loss of relatives or friends, or expressing religious sentiments. Even something as simple as wearing eye glasses could result in execution because the Khmer Rouge associated it with Western intellectualism. Sick people were often killed. The killings often occurred without even the pretense of a show trial, and they continued, uninterrupted, until Vietnam invaded in 1979."
"Article 20 of the 1976 Constitution of Democratic Kampuchea guaranteed religious freedom, but it also declared that "all reactionary religions that are detrimental to Democratic Kampuchea and the Kampuchean People are strictly forbidden." About 85 percent of the population follows the Theravada school of Buddhism. The country's 40,000 to 60,000 Buddhist monks, regarded by the regime as social parasites, were defrocked and forced into labor brigades. Many monks were executed; temples and pagodas were destroyed or turned into storehouses or jails. Images of the Buddha were defaced and dumped into rivers and lakes. People who were discovered praying or expressing religious sentiments were often killed. The Christian and Muslim communities also were even more persecuted, as they were labelled as part of a pro-Western cosmopolitan sphere, hindering Cambodian culture and society. The Roman Catholic cathedral of Phnom Penh was completely razed. The Khmer Rouge forced Muslims to eat pork, which they regard as an abomination. Many of those who refused were killed. Christian clergy and Muslim imams were executed.
The Khmer Rouge's treatment of minorities seems to have varied from group to group. The Vietnamese endured the greatest suffering. Tens of thousands were raped, mutilated, and murdered in regime-organized massacres. Most of the survivors fled to Vietnam. The Cham, a Muslim minority who are the descendants of migrants from the old state of Champa, were forced to adopt the Khmer language and customs. Their communities, which traditionally had existed apart from Khmer villages, were broken up. Forty thousand Cham were killed in two districts of Kampong Cham Province alone. Thai minorities living near the Thai border also were persecuted."
...
Ref. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Kampuchea
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I fully agree with this. But I think if you took the time to notice you would find a re-occurring sentiment on this board that religion is bad and causes harm in the world.
I think the harm stems from how religions often take away an individual's responsibilty of using their own reasoning, thought processes, inner feelings and replace them with doctrine. When things are made right and wrong with no reasoning behind them other than supposedly being 'god's way' then a lot of unnecessary hate and prejudice can be created. People may often feel what they are doing or supporting is wrong but their blind faith all but erases that natural consciousness that guides us.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I fully agree with this. But I think if you took the time to notice you would find a re-occurring sentiment on this board that religion is bad and causes harm in the world.
I think the harm stems from how religions often take away an individual's responsibilty of using their own reasoning, thought processes, inner feelings and replace them with doctrine. When things are made right and wrong with no reasoning behind them other than supposedly being 'god's way' then a lot of unnecessary hate and prejudice can be created. People may often feel what they are doing or supporting is wrong but their blind faith all but erases that natural consciousness that guides us.
That can be true of any -ism as well as religion.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
I just think if man follows his heart and by doing so is a good man, then he is truly a good man, if he follows a book then he is just a robot, a sheep, programmed, theres no righteousness in that.
I dont believe any God wants me to spend my life worrying about what he thinks, we'll have a chat about it all at a later date (much later i hope)
I just think if man follows his heart and by doing so is a good man, then he is truly a good man, if he follows a book then he is just a robot, a sheep, programmed, theres no righteousness in that.
I dont believe any God wants me to spend my life worrying about what he thinks, we'll have a chat about it all at a later date (much later i hope)
I like your first post. Welcome onboard!
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
NOTHING in Christian teaching or scripture encourages the type of behavior Hitler demonstrated. Christianity cannot be blamed.
...
Your childish, unsubstantiated tantrum is the SAME type of things we hear from these Muslims that try to convince us that the rants of Isalmic religious leaders, preaching death and destruction have nothing to do with the religion of Islam. They need to accept the fact that the religion of Islam is being used by influential men to advocate death and violence... JUST LIKE HITLER used Christianity in his quest to rid Europe of the 'Jewish Scourge'. True or false interpretations of the religion or not... the religion is being used to convince followers of that religion to act in ways that is contrary to what the religion actually teaches.
To me there is a very distinct differentiation here--there is a difference between the tenets of a religion instigating and causing death and destruction, and with people distorting such tenets for their sadly flawed and pathological purposes and causing death and destruction. Religion is responsible for what it specifically teaches. And further, religion is not responsible for how hostile, unbalanced individuals distort and mutate religion for opposite-to-religion purposes.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
What I find interesting is that Richard Dawkins of the original article is an evolutionary scientist. According to levels of human development at this time, large numbers of people on this planet are clearly at a stage in their evolution where they predominantly follow or believe mythical-order belief systems over logical, reasoning systems. We can blame and morally judge all we want, making these people wrong. The FACT of the matter is that they are exactly where evolution itself has put them. Humans go through developmental stages as a whole and individually. If a large chunk of humanity has not passed through mythical-order developmental stages (as in religious fundamentalism/moral majority) naturally, then scientifically speaking and beyond moral, value judgments, evolution itself is accountable. Humans can only understand the worldview level they are currently in developmentally. They cannot live from stages of evolution that they are not yet at. Furthermore, humans must go from one stage of development to the next--one cannot skip any stage in processes of personal transcendence. Those who view life through magical/mythical/hard-rules stages over logical visionary stages are exactly where they've been designed to be--by nature, herself. Maybe it's our personal moral judgments, religious OR athiest, wherein we make others "wrong" and that happen to depict what level of development WE ARE AT that is the REAL problem. Evolution just is what and where it is at this time, beyond petty human judgment. To say it is religion or athiesm causing problems throughout history seems to me to naively say the tail wags the dog.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I guess us Atheists have to visit churches and educate people on Atheism.
There is no Atheist doctrine, there is no Atheist church and no Atheist Bible. Besides denying the existance of God, there is nothing to Atheism.
You are probably correct about the heart of atheism. At the same time, like religion, the unacknowledged emotional issues that accompany atheism in most cases I have personally observed--in most of the athiests I know--tend to colour the "image" of atheism just like the unhealthy emotional issues perpetuated in the name of religion colour the truths of religion. Such unconscious issues tend to keep many athiests/religious people locked in a cycle--seemingly attracted to one another, due to a lacking balanced emotionally healthy view on either side. As is seen frequently on this board.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
...
This is a perfect example of religious ferver short circuiting reason and cognitive thought. Your childish, unsubstantiated tantrum is the SAME type of things we hear from these Muslims that try to convince us that the rants of Isalmic religious leaders, preaching death and destruction have nothing to do with the religion of Islam. They need to accept the fact that the religion of Islam is being used by influential men to advocate death and violence... JUST LIKE HITLER used Christianity in his quest to rid Europe of the 'Jewish Scourge'. True or false interpretations of the religion or not... the religion is being used to convince followers of that religion to act in ways that is contrary to what the religion actually teaches. That is the dark side of blind faith (religion)... the ability of some to convince the masses of what their destiny is.
Your attacks on me do nothing to me, because I don't give a fuck what you think of me... you simply shine a light on your own narrow little mind. You can go on and continue to pretend that the factual truths of the past do not exist, simply because you are too small of a man to accept them. But, wish as you may... your faith will never change those truths or make them go away.
...
Add... Regarding Pol Pot:
"People were executed for not working hard enough, complaining about living conditions, collecting or stealing food for their own use, wearing jewelry, having sexual relations, grieving over the loss of relatives or friends, or expressing religious sentiments. Even something as simple as wearing eye glasses could result in execution because the Khmer Rouge associated it with Western intellectualism. Sick people were often killed. The killings often occurred without even the pretense of a show trial, and they continued, uninterrupted, until Vietnam invaded in 1979."
"Article 20 of the 1976 Constitution of Democratic Kampuchea guaranteed religious freedom, but it also declared that "all reactionary religions that are detrimental to Democratic Kampuchea and the Kampuchean People are strictly forbidden." About 85 percent of the population follows the Theravada school of Buddhism. The country's 40,000 to 60,000 Buddhist monks, regarded by the regime as social parasites, were defrocked and forced into labor brigades. Many monks were executed; temples and pagodas were destroyed or turned into storehouses or jails. Images of the Buddha were defaced and dumped into rivers and lakes. People who were discovered praying or expressing religious sentiments were often killed. The Christian and Muslim communities also were even more persecuted, as they were labelled as part of a pro-Western cosmopolitan sphere, hindering Cambodian culture and society. The Roman Catholic cathedral of Phnom Penh was completely razed. The Khmer Rouge forced Muslims to eat pork, which they regard as an abomination. Many of those who refused were killed. Christian clergy and Muslim imams were executed.
The Khmer Rouge's treatment of minorities seems to have varied from group to group. The Vietnamese endured the greatest suffering. Tens of thousands were raped, mutilated, and murdered in regime-organized massacres. Most of the survivors fled to Vietnam. The Cham, a Muslim minority who are the descendants of migrants from the old state of Champa, were forced to adopt the Khmer language and customs. Their communities, which traditionally had existed apart from Khmer villages, were broken up. Forty thousand Cham were killed in two districts of Kampong Cham Province alone. Thai minorities living near the Thai border also were persecuted."
...
Ref. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Kampuchea
Religious ferver short circuiting reason and cognitive thought? Thats rich. All i've done is counter your rantings about Hitler proving Christianity is responsible for the holocaust (which in no way resembles a cognitive thought, by the way) "with a little sugar on top". Deal with it. i have to read shit on here like "You and your fellow Christians... blah, blah, blah," and when i respond, I"M the one thats full of ferver and mindlessness!? Please. If i were to say " You and atheists like you know damn well that if you were to put down the bong, take John Lennon's "Imagine" off repeat in the CD player, step out into the world and open your eyes, you would see just how ful of shit you really are", i would be blasted for pages. Enough with the hypocrisy already. Just stop. in case you didn't notice, i agreed that Atheism cannot be blamed for Hitler.. I called such reasoning "ridiculous". Just as ridiculous as you postulating a BS hypothesis suggesting Christianity is responsible for the holocaust and Islam is responsible for 9/11 blah, blah, blah,...
Further more what does citing information from wikipedia regarding the Pol Pot regime do? Nothing. i know what happened under Pol POt just like i know what happened under Hitler. Pol Pot was a known atheist. If you are going to insist that Hitler stands "on my side of the fence" , then i will insist that Pol Pot stands on yours. You know what they say about people in glass houses...
*wanders off to create and market "Pol Pot = Atheism" bumper stickers*
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
I think the harm stems from how religions often take away an individual's responsibilty of using their own reasoning, thought processes, inner feelings and replace them with doctrine. When things are made right and wrong with no reasoning behind them other than supposedly being 'god's way' then a lot of unnecessary hate and prejudice can be created. People may often feel what they are doing or supporting is wrong but their blind faith all but erases that natural consciousness that guides us.
Using Cosmo's example of Hitler, please explain how the non-religipus German folks fell in line. People will use any excuse to support their deeds. Some people on this board follow "Ishmeal"-ism or so it seems, some "Ed"-ism.
Religion never takes away an individual's responsibility for using their own reasoning. At least no more so than family, sport team or political party affiliation, or the neighbour you live in does. Joining any group never takes away individual responsibility, it can only make you more easily swayed by group think or mob mentality. Now unless you think every sort of group should be done away with then you are unfiarly scapegoating religion.
Usign some of the reasoning on this board regarding religion we'd be able to hate blacks because they have a higher crime rate in the US so we could surmise that black people have done more harm than good. Then we could look at China, look at all the poverty and poorness created by the manufacturing jobs exported to China. Let's hate them too and wish they never existed, the world would be a better place without them.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
What I find interesting is that Richard Dawkins of the original article is an evolutionary scientist. According to levels of human development at this time, large numbers of people on this planet are clearly at a stage in their evolution where they predominantly follow or believe mythical-order belief systems over logical, reasoning systems. We can blame and morally judge all we want, making these people wrong. The FACT of the matter is that they are exactly where evolution itself has put them. Humans go through developmental stages as a whole and individually. If a large chunk of humanity has not passed through mythical-order developmental stages (as in religious fundamentalism/moral majority) naturally, then scientifically speaking and beyond moral, value judgments, evolution itself is accountable. Humans can only understand the worldview level they are currently in developmentally. They cannot live from stages of evolution that they are not yet at. Furthermore, humans must go from one stage of development to the next--one cannot skip any stage in processes of personal transcendence. Those who view life through magical/mythical/hard-rules stages over logical visionary stages are exactly where they've been designed to be--by nature, herself. Maybe it's our personal moral judgments, religious OR athiest, wherein we make others "wrong" and that happen to depict what level of development WE ARE AT that is the REAL problem. Evolution just is what and where it is at this time, beyond petty human judgment. To say it is religion or athiesm causing problems throughout history seems to me to naively say the tail wags the dog.
I love you. and wish I was smart enough to have gotten to this point without your help.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
Comments
I find things I can enjoy, like posting here, listening to music, learning and researching. There are many many things I would like to do that aren't quite in reach, but that won't get me down. I guess if I"m still alive when I"m 65, I'll be even happier to be alive.
look at it this way: you could be in a fox hole in Iraq.
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Nonsense, beginning to end.
And just for the record, I'm an atheist who thinks Richard Dawkins is a moron.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_I_(Barbarossa)
Boy... here's an extreme case of denial of truth.
The truth that Hitler used the Christian religion to fuel Christian German Soldiers to put bullets in the ears of Jews in Buchenwald cannot be denied... no matter how much you want it to be. The Soldiers who wore belt buckles proclaiming 'Gott Mit Uns' (God With Us) and were not godless baby eating rapists. Yet, these soldiers carried out the orders and commited the horrible deeds.
You know... and your fellow Christians know... that HAD Hitler been an admitted Atheist, you and your religious fellowship would hold all Atheists responsible for the Holocaust. You would see Atheism synonymous with Nazism, right?
I have never stated that Christianity was responsible for the Holocaust... that is probably due to the years of religious guilt the church reigns down on you. I am saying that Christianity's hands are not clean, regarding the Holocaust and the responsible thing to do... in my book... is to accept it as one of the flaws of major organized religions... all organized religions... and learn from it so it never happens again. The flaw that normally good hearted Christians can be swayed by their belief into doing horrible things to others. To pretend it wasn't true means you haven't learned a damn thing... you stand there with clean hands, pretending it was some other belief system to blame... ready to repeat the same thing all over again.
No one wants Hitler on their side of the fence... I understand that. But, he clearly stands on the side of Christianity (if you consider Catholics as Christians), no matter how much you wish him to be on the Atheist side... deal with it, learn from it, do not repeat it.
Hail, Hail!!!
It all depends upon the deed... and the intent.
A guy straps on a bomb and steps onto a crowded city bus, cries out 'God is Great' and dentonates in in order to kill as many Jews as possible in a Jihad against his religion and his homeland.
A woman believes that her child is going to live a horrible life on this Earth and wants him to be with Jesus... so she smothers him in his sleep with a pillow.
...
Yes... in both cases, the individual is to blame and should be held for their actions. Are they nuts? Are they crazy because of their beliefs?
...
A kid comes into a classroom and shoots up the place because he was picked on by the jocks.
Would having religion in his life changed a thing?
Who knows... maybe... maybe not.
Hail, Hail!!!
Perhaps sympathy, understanding and tolerance would have change something in all those lives.
That is correct. And Religion is not a pre-requisite for sympathy, understanding and tolerance. I know several people who are kind and charitable and caring for people, animals and the environment who do not belong to any religion and some who do not believe in God.
I'm not anti-religion for others... I just haven't found a religion I can believe in. If someone chooses Islam or Christianity or Scientology... and it makes them happy... good for them. It's not my call to decide who should believe what.
I do not believe one religion has cornered the market on God's love... and that God accepts us for who we are and what we do... not what we believe.
Hail, Hail!!!
That's a good perception of God.
A fellow I work with named "Rich" is a highly religious Christian. His belief is that all other belief systems are counterfeit. Islam, Buddhism, Catholic, etc.. he says they are all distorted versions of the truth. I argued that since the original stories were passed down verbally through many generations that the stone tablets are probably also distorted, thus the King James version he claims is genuine is probably also counterfeit. He didn't like that very much, so I said "Don't you think it's a little bigoted to say that all other religions are wrong?" he didn't like that much either. I had to end the conversation at that point, it was getting too heated for work.
watch that language, corny.
that's a violation here.
say you are sorry!
8/08 - Ed solo in DC, 6/09 Ed in B'more,
10/10 - Brad in B'more
naděje umírá poslední
Pure bullshit. Every bit.
NOTHING in Christian teaching or scripture encourages the type of behavior Hitler demonstrated. Christianity cannot be blamed. That type of logic is abso-fucking-lutely ridiculous. Try to absorb this. i know its difficult for you. What Hitler said or what the Nazis had on their fucking belt-buckles means nothing.
But hey, if thats the way it has to be around here, i now declare Pol fucking Pot to be a shining example of Atheism and Atheistic behavior. Pol Pot is the worlds leading Atheist represrntative. Pack that in your bowl and smoke it.
Wake up. Your hatred has you completely blinded. Just like Hitler. i also declare that you are barely more enlightened than him.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
You're missing the point, I think. The point is that Hitler considered himself very much a religious man, and used it a lot in his speeches and propaganda. That it was a distorted version of christianity, I do not doubt. I dont think anyone is saying Hitler is a shining example. But if we're gonna play the label game, Hitler was a christian, who (ab)used the religion actively in his politics and propaganda. Like his slogan for women's role in society: Kinder, Küche, Kirche. (Kids, Kitchen and Church) It doesn't say that christianity really encourages Hitler-like behaviour and policies.
I dont understand why you get so mad about it. Hitler was christian. None have proposed Hitler as the model christian, and a champion of all christianity. The whole thing started from the article, labelling Hitler as atheist, when that is actually wrong. That is what have been pointed out. Christians can also be bastards, against the article's premises.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Wow, Cosmo writes two of the most enlightened, pursuasive fact based responses to this article in the thread, and all you've done is spit vitriol while calling him a hater. Religion is a symbol, people commit atrocities for their belt buckles just as easily as for their flag. Hitler used religion, and he used a lot of old German folklore to justify his Aerian race. People ate it up, symbols have a way of severing that nerve cord to the brain that makes us question our actions in the present. But thanks for making absolutely no valid points, being obscenely rude in response to tactful, well thought-out discussion, and in fact I think making everyone who read this thread a little dumber.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
This is a perfect example of religious ferver short circuiting reason and cognitive thought. Your childish, unsubstantiated tantrum is the SAME type of things we hear from these Muslims that try to convince us that the rants of Isalmic religious leaders, preaching death and destruction have nothing to do with the religion of Islam. They need to accept the fact that the religion of Islam is being used by influential men to advocate death and violence... JUST LIKE HITLER used Christianity in his quest to rid Europe of the 'Jewish Scourge'. True or false interpretations of the religion or not... the religion is being used to convince followers of that religion to act in ways that is contrary to what the religion actually teaches. That is the dark side of blind faith (religion)... the ability of some to convince the masses of what their destiny is.
Your attacks on me do nothing to me, because I don't give a fuck what you think of me... you simply shine a light on your own narrow little mind. You can go on and continue to pretend that the factual truths of the past do not exist, simply because you are too small of a man to accept them. But, wish as you may... your faith will never change those truths or make them go away.
...
Add... Regarding Pol Pot:
"People were executed for not working hard enough, complaining about living conditions, collecting or stealing food for their own use, wearing jewelry, having sexual relations, grieving over the loss of relatives or friends, or expressing religious sentiments. Even something as simple as wearing eye glasses could result in execution because the Khmer Rouge associated it with Western intellectualism. Sick people were often killed. The killings often occurred without even the pretense of a show trial, and they continued, uninterrupted, until Vietnam invaded in 1979."
"Article 20 of the 1976 Constitution of Democratic Kampuchea guaranteed religious freedom, but it also declared that "all reactionary religions that are detrimental to Democratic Kampuchea and the Kampuchean People are strictly forbidden." About 85 percent of the population follows the Theravada school of Buddhism. The country's 40,000 to 60,000 Buddhist monks, regarded by the regime as social parasites, were defrocked and forced into labor brigades. Many monks were executed; temples and pagodas were destroyed or turned into storehouses or jails. Images of the Buddha were defaced and dumped into rivers and lakes. People who were discovered praying or expressing religious sentiments were often killed. The Christian and Muslim communities also were even more persecuted, as they were labelled as part of a pro-Western cosmopolitan sphere, hindering Cambodian culture and society. The Roman Catholic cathedral of Phnom Penh was completely razed. The Khmer Rouge forced Muslims to eat pork, which they regard as an abomination. Many of those who refused were killed. Christian clergy and Muslim imams were executed.
The Khmer Rouge's treatment of minorities seems to have varied from group to group. The Vietnamese endured the greatest suffering. Tens of thousands were raped, mutilated, and murdered in regime-organized massacres. Most of the survivors fled to Vietnam. The Cham, a Muslim minority who are the descendants of migrants from the old state of Champa, were forced to adopt the Khmer language and customs. Their communities, which traditionally had existed apart from Khmer villages, were broken up. Forty thousand Cham were killed in two districts of Kampong Cham Province alone. Thai minorities living near the Thai border also were persecuted."
...
Ref. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Kampuchea
Hail, Hail!!!
I think the harm stems from how religions often take away an individual's responsibilty of using their own reasoning, thought processes, inner feelings and replace them with doctrine. When things are made right and wrong with no reasoning behind them other than supposedly being 'god's way' then a lot of unnecessary hate and prejudice can be created. People may often feel what they are doing or supporting is wrong but their blind faith all but erases that natural consciousness that guides us.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Certainly.
That can be true of any -ism as well as religion.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
I dont believe any God wants me to spend my life worrying about what he thinks, we'll have a chat about it all at a later date (much later i hope)
I like your first post. Welcome onboard!
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
To me there is a very distinct differentiation here--there is a difference between the tenets of a religion instigating and causing death and destruction, and with people distorting such tenets for their sadly flawed and pathological purposes and causing death and destruction. Religion is responsible for what it specifically teaches. And further, religion is not responsible for how hostile, unbalanced individuals distort and mutate religion for opposite-to-religion purposes.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
You are probably correct about the heart of atheism. At the same time, like religion, the unacknowledged emotional issues that accompany atheism in most cases I have personally observed--in most of the athiests I know--tend to colour the "image" of atheism just like the unhealthy emotional issues perpetuated in the name of religion colour the truths of religion. Such unconscious issues tend to keep many athiests/religious people locked in a cycle--seemingly attracted to one another, due to a lacking balanced emotionally healthy view on either side. As is seen frequently on this board.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Religious ferver short circuiting reason and cognitive thought? Thats rich. All i've done is counter your rantings about Hitler proving Christianity is responsible for the holocaust (which in no way resembles a cognitive thought, by the way) "with a little sugar on top". Deal with it. i have to read shit on here like "You and your fellow Christians... blah, blah, blah," and when i respond, I"M the one thats full of ferver and mindlessness!? Please. If i were to say " You and atheists like you know damn well that if you were to put down the bong, take John Lennon's "Imagine" off repeat in the CD player, step out into the world and open your eyes, you would see just how ful of shit you really are", i would be blasted for pages. Enough with the hypocrisy already. Just stop. in case you didn't notice, i agreed that Atheism cannot be blamed for Hitler.. I called such reasoning "ridiculous". Just as ridiculous as you postulating a BS hypothesis suggesting Christianity is responsible for the holocaust and Islam is responsible for 9/11 blah, blah, blah,...
Further more what does citing information from wikipedia regarding the Pol Pot regime do? Nothing. i know what happened under Pol POt just like i know what happened under Hitler. Pol Pot was a known atheist. If you are going to insist that Hitler stands "on my side of the fence" , then i will insist that Pol Pot stands on yours. You know what they say about people in glass houses...
*wanders off to create and market "Pol Pot = Atheism" bumper stickers*
Religion never takes away an individual's responsibility for using their own reasoning. At least no more so than family, sport team or political party affiliation, or the neighbour you live in does. Joining any group never takes away individual responsibility, it can only make you more easily swayed by group think or mob mentality. Now unless you think every sort of group should be done away with then you are unfiarly scapegoating religion.
Usign some of the reasoning on this board regarding religion we'd be able to hate blacks because they have a higher crime rate in the US so we could surmise that black people have done more harm than good. Then we could look at China, look at all the poverty and poorness created by the manufacturing jobs exported to China. Let's hate them too and wish they never existed, the world would be a better place without them.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley