why???

decides2dream

angelica wrote:

The idea of the 95% being unhealthy refers to the fact that people generally are crippled in meeting their base emotional needs. They then develop all kinds of disorders to carry the burden for them. The problem is the disorders don't solve the problem and instead add more pain. Sometimes the pain is unbearable and people seek a way out. I support that.

I agree with most of what you say here. I believe we ALL--no matter what stage we are at--can begin to just be and accept ourselves, warts and all.

This thread and my comments here stemmed from the comments in the "gay people raising children" thread which said essentially: should gay people force children to endure having gay parents, with the problems associated with it? My answer was, why not? We ALL have our problems and raise children anyway, so why should gay people be any different?

see, the part i bolded..i just don't buy. "crippled" seems far-fetched at best. sure, perhaps don't sdeal as best they can...but far from crippled imho. sure, semantics...but isn't that the whole point? believe me, i get in debates and hung up on semantics all the time ...but i also think we as a society fget way too bogged down on labels, rationalizing away behaviors....and just generally down on ourselves, on life...full of excuses...etc.

and yes, i agree....we ALL have our problems...and i do not consider 'sexual orientation' to be one of them. hell, if you've got that part figured out...you';re one step closer to happiness. haha. seriously tho, i simply believe we get a bit carried away with thinking we have a 'problem'...when really, it's just LIFE. of course, i am not dismissing those with serious disorders...and even the run of the mill, i find counseling beneficial, etc...i just don't see 95% of the population 'crippled' emotionally...b/c i still say, if that were true...then that's as we should be....b/c otherwise, damn, we were poorly designed if 95% of us don't function properly.

angelica

decides2dream wrote:

see, the part i bolded..i just don't buy. "crippled" seems far-fetched at best. sure, perhaps don't sdeal as best they can...but far from crippled imho. sure, semantics...but isn't that the whole point? believe me, i get in debates and hung up on semantics all the time ...but i also think we as a society fget way too bogged down on labels, rationalizing away behaviors....and just generally down on ourselves, on life...full of excuses...etc.

and yes, i agree....we ALL have our problems...and i do not consider 'sexual orientation' to be one of them. hell, if you've got that part figured out...you';re one step closer to happiness. haha. seriously tho, i simply believe we get a bit carried away with thinking we have a 'problem'...when really, it's just LIFE. of course, i am not dismissing those with serious disorders...and even the run of the mill, i find counseling beneficial, etc...i just don't see 95% of the population 'crippled' emotionally...b/c i still say, if that were true...then that's as we should be....b/c otherwise, damn, we were poorly designed if 95% of us don't function properly.

Being imbalanced is about being crippled. Yes, just coffee addiction alone is accepted. Not to mention the myriad other 'conditions'. The fact is, addiction is debilitating. Addiction literally keeps part of our thought processes paralysed. Unfortuntely, we don't know what we are missing out on. We can look at the world and think that it's life and it happens. It's where we are in evolution. At the same time, we can also look at life and see how imbalanced we are that we abuse one another, kill others whose lifestyle's we don't like (take a look at the world stage). We have a society where one in three girls is molested before adulthood, etc. The ugliness is real, too. I see both sides of the coin. I do not minimise the degree that we are ill. I also don't wallow in it. It IS where we are right now--both good and bad.

El_Kabong

angelica wrote:

Being imbalanced is about being crippled. Yes, just coffee addiction alone is accepted. Not to mention the myriad other 'conditions'. The fact is, addiction is debilitating. Addiction literally keeps part of our thought processes paralysed. Unfortuntely, we don't know what we are missing out on. We can look at the world and think that it's life and it happens. It's where we are in evolution. At the same time, we can also look at life and see how imbalanced we are that we abuse one another, kill others whose lifestyle's we don't like (take a look at the world stage). We have a society where one in three girls is molested before adulthood, etc. The ugliness is real, too. I see both sides of the coin. I do not minimise the degree that we are ill. I also don't wallow in it. It IS where we are right now--both good and bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8k9o7qZs_Y

decides2dream

angelica wrote:

Being imbalanced is about being crippled. Yes, just coffee addiction alone is accepted. Not to mention the myriad other 'conditions'. The fact is, addiction is debilitating. Addiction literally keeps part of our thought processes paralysed. Unfortuntely, we don't know what we are missing out on. We can look at the world and think that it's life and it happens. It's where we are in evolution. At the same time, we can also look at life and see how imbalanced we are that we abuse one another, kill others whose lifestyle's we don't like (take a look at the world stage). We have a society where one in three girls is molested before adulthood, etc. The ugliness is real, too. I see both sides of the coin. I do not minimise the degree that we are ill. I also don't wallow in it. It IS where we are right now--both good and bad.

i simply don't view it in the same light as you do, or apparently some experts do either. i don't see it as being crippled or debilitated. can it be? sure. but for the vast majority, no...don't see it like that at all. perhaps holds you back some, maybe, but again...i just simply see it as different personalities, ways of dealing, etc...there is no one 'perfet' way to live, to be human, etc. we can always strive to do better for ourselves...but yea, i just don't see it in such stringent, views...and with such doom. it's life, and living. merely my take on it.

angelica

decides2dream wrote:

i simply don't view it in the same light as you do, or apparently some experts do either. i don't see it as being crippled or debilitated. can it be? sure. but for the vast majority, no...don't see it like that at all. perhaps holds you back some, maybe, but again...i just simply see it as different personalities, ways of dealing, etc...there is no one 'perfet' way to live, to be human, etc. we can always strive to do better for ourselves...but yea, i just don't see it in such stringent, views...and with such doom. it's life, and living. merely my take on it.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I understand that it's valid to see that point of view--one of accepting that we're not perfect and that it's okay. And I'm sure many share it. As I say, part of me accepts that, too.

The fact remains that frozen aspects of brain functioning leads to crippled choice. And 95% of the population is considered to have this issue. Psychology is an objective scientific study. It's not based on guesses and opinions. They identify what works for a human in meeting their needs and they can identify what does not work. They can identify that not meeting one's need--not wants--but needs, causes fallout that keeps people from unfolding as their blueprint would dictate.

You mentioned personality. Each personality type has the ways they can get off track when unhealthy, and also gifts, talents and qualities the person will exude when they are healthy.

decides2dream

angelica wrote:

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I understand that it's valid to see that point of view--one of accepting that we're not perfect and that it's okay. And I'm sure many share it. As I say, part of me accepts that, too.

The fact remains that frozen aspects of brain functioning leads to crippled choice. And 95% of the population is considered to have this issue. Psychology is an objective scientific study. It's not based on guesses and opinions. They identify what works for a human in meeting their needs and they can identify what does not work. They can identify that not meeting one's need--not wants--but needs, causes fallout that keeps people from unfolding as their blueprint would dictate.

You mentioned personality. Each personality type has the ways they can get off track when unhealthy, and also gifts, talents and qualities the person will exude when they are healthy.

well i shall merely leave it as a difference of opinion, politely agree to disagree...b/c even your 'facts' of psychology, i don't fully believe....it is not an 'exact' science, always evolving...and i still will completely diagree with the call of 95%, and also that it is so 'crippling'..personally, i find that rather dismissive of the term crippling. obviously, it can't be all that crippling since 95% of the population is still out there, functioning...and i don't think al that emotionally unhappy/unstable...etc. anyhoo..it's all interesting, but i see it as different points of view..not facts...even if you get a couple of docotrs/experts to back it up...still not definitive to me, not as of yet, anyway.

angelica

decides2dream wrote:

well i shall merely leave it as a difference of opinion, politely agree to disagree...b/c even your 'facts' of psychology, i don't fully believe....it is not an 'exact' science, always evolving...and i still will completely diagree with the call of 95%, and also that it is so 'crippling'..personally, i find that rather dismissive of the term crippling. obviously, it can't be all that crippling since 95% of the population is still out there, functioning...and i don't think al that emotionally unhappy/unstable...etc. anyhoo..it's all interesting, but i see it as different points of view..not facts...even if you get a couple of docotrs/experts to back it up...still not definitive to me, not as of yet, anyway.

You are backing up your disagreement with an opinion, and yet is your opinion an informed one? I mean do you have specific information/facts to back what you say and to counter what I've said? You have said that the facts of psychology are a point of view and not facts. What are your facts? Whether a line of study can improve and change does not minimise the fact that objective study is more reliable than personal opinion.

You say: "it can't be all that crippling since 95% of the population is still out there, functioning". The point is, you acknowledged earlier the many disorders and dysfunctions people have. When someone dysfunctions, they are not functioning okay--that's why the term is "dys" function.

angelica

El_Kabong wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8k9o7qZs_Y

that's adorable, and fits perfectly.

hippiemom

El_Kabong wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8k9o7qZs_Y

How I miss him :(

soulsinging

angelica wrote:

We have a society where one in three girls is molested before adulthood, etc.

i find that very difficult to believe. ive heard it said that 1 in 4 will be sexually harassed in college. but molested to me means basically raped or damn close to it and that seems a staggering number. that means i know very few girls who werent molested as a kid. where did you find this statistic?

im also curious about this 95% of us are dysfunctional thing. ive seen you mention it several times and i also find that pretty hard to swallow. ive always been curious where that one came from.

angelica

soulsinging wrote:

i find that very difficult to believe. ive heard it said that 1 in 4 will be sexually harassed in college. but molested to me means basically raped or damn close to it and that seems a staggering number. that means i know very few girls who werent molested as a kid. where did you find this statistic?

im also curious about this 95% of us are dysfunctional thing. ive seen you mention it several times and i also find that pretty hard to swallow. ive always been curious where that one came from.

The 1 in 3 statistic, I heard on Oprah, among other places, at different times, by different experts. I've also heard one in four. (http://www.darkness2light.org/KnowAbout/statistics_2.asp ... http://www.sexualassaultresources.org/ ) Many of the women I know were molested as children. The term molested, from what I understand, refers to all manner of sexual assault. For example, when I was five I was orally sodomised by neighbourhood boys. My daughter was manually groped and fondled in the genital area by a family friend when she was 4.

The 95% number comes specifically from books on co-dependency. My boyfriend and I were going through co-dependency books at a bookstore once. We were looking for some information and skimming through, and at the beginning of one book after another, each author separately used the 95% statistic. One of my favourite authors on the subject is John Bradshaw (the guys who started the "inner child" stuff)

The idea is that in childhood, we're taught to deny our feelings on a mass scale. Then our emotional self stays immature inside while we develop a false self--the image that is okay on the outside. The basis of psychological problems is that we are living as the false self, and we've lost touch with our real selves, without even knowing it since we did not develop in healthy ways to begin with. This would be fine if we did not have painful behaviours that cause us grief, pain, the breakdown of our families, and that ingrain dysfunctional patterns in our own kids.

Here is some information on the topic from a John Bradshaw book. Keep in mind that he refers to addictiveness/compulsivity in referring to not just the usual addictions but as addiction to sex/pornography, religion, abusive relationships, workaholism, shopaholism, eating disorders, gambling and many others:

" Addictiveness is the inner emptiness we try to fill up with any mood-altering behavior. The word addiction has often been limited to chemical substances like alcohol, nicotine, and other drugs that have their own inherent addictive properties....there are many types of non-chemical addiction...the common root of every addiction is compulsivity understood as addictiveness.

Compulsive/addictive behaviors are not about being hungry, thirsty, "horny" or needing to work. They are about mood alteration. They help us manage our own feelings. They distract us or alter the way we are feeling so that we don't have to feel the loneliness and emptiness of our abandonment and shame. The mood alteration that comes from distractive activities is mostly unrecognized in our culture.

The most crucial aspect of any compulsivity is the life-damaging aspect of it Life-damaging means that the compulsive/addictive behavior causes personal dysfunction. Compulsivity of any sort blocks us from getting our needs met through our own basic human power. The compulsivity takes up all our energy. Our choices are narrowed. Our freedom is lost. Our will is disabled. Compulsivity is a state of inner barrenness. We are totally externalized without any self-reflection and interior life. How can we have an inner life when we feel flawed and defective as a human being? This shame core keeps the addict from going inward. The true self hides behind a masked false-self."

angelica

More from John Bradshaw on this topic:

"Shame with it's accompanying loneliness and psychic numbness, fuels our compulsive/addictive lifestyle...Shame fuels compulsivity and compulsivity is the black plague of our time. We are driven. We want more money, more sex, more food, more booze, more drugs, more adrenaline rush, more entertainment, more possessions, more ecstasy. Like a starving person, even more of everything does not satiate us." (source: "Bradshaw on: The Family", by John Bradshaw)



Many on this board recognise that there are major underlying flaws to the way we live that are causing mass fallout around us. Because the workaholic appears successful, or because needing an adreneline rush Fear Factor style have become socially acceptable, much like the old days when smoking was portrayed as glamorous, does not effectively erase the underlying condition of the disease of unending "More". The problem is our pursuit of more will NEVER soothe the inner problem of co-dependency....The good news is co-dependency can be overcome and people can and DO find their way to health. Unfortunately, this issue is denied in our culture. The key to co-dependency IS denial.



""...our most pressing human problems focus on compulsive/addictive behavior. Addictions narrow our minds and disable our wills. Our life is no longer a conscious choice. (edit: remember, he refers to addiction to tv, or food--notice the obesity around us??--; he refers to addiction to pornography, or sexual conquests; or addiction to caffeine, nicotine, to religion)

It is false thinking to believe that addiction is only about dope fiends in dark alleys or belligerant and stumbling drunks.

In my own work as president of the Palmer Drug Abuse program, I found a very stereotyped conception of addiction. While we treated teenagers abusing chemicals, we also dealt with their parents and their families. All around me I found work addiction, religious addiction, eating disorders, co-dependent people addicts, parents addicted to their children, cigarette addicts and rageaholics.

...An addiction is a pathological relationship with any mood altering experience that has life-damaging consequences. The inability to relate in a healthy manner is the result of shame, since shame is the result of broken relationships. Once the interpersonal bridge with caretakers or survival figures is broken, children believe they do not have the right to depend on anyone. They quit trusting themselves and others and start depending on their fantasy bond and self-indulging patterns of behavior.They are set up for pathological relationships.

Pathological implies a delusional quality to the relationship. Delusion and denial are the essence of compulsive/addictive behavior.

he still stands

IndianSummer wrote:

intrigued by the following comment -




i want to ask... WHY???

why should the most prosperous part of the world barring maybe japan, be the most psychologically messed up???

how much of a contributing factor are the following

1) the high rate of broken marriages

2) the pill and the bedroom revolution that followed

3) labour class culture that became so popular

4) the western society could only have declined. i mean the stranglehold of the west on the world ever since colonisation began and till it ended with WW2 - couldnt get any more dominant. so after the ww2, while western dominance started slowly declining, western society meanwhile was facing a problem of abundance. people in asia and africa were starving while most people in the non-commie west at least had all basic things. i mean to say, all this affleuce made for an entire society of "spoilt children" in the west. could that be a reason??



i'd appreciate if people gave their answers/opinions to each of the four points and added a few that i could have missed out.

well I stopped reading after "why should the most prosperous part of the world barring maybe japan, be the most psychologically messed up???"

Thats a fairly ignorant statement since Japan has the highest suicide rate of any so-called "prosperous" nation.

angelica

Which reminds me....

I talk about the 95% and the western world being "messed up" because I have some sense of what that means. The co-dependency books that I get my information from do NOT imply at all that this issue is only occuring in the west...They talk about it as a human issue. I don't know if it is considered worldwide or not and therefore I cannot speak to that. I personally would not in any way say that the US is the most psychologically messed up place--by any stretch of the imagination.

This is NOT about one country being messed up and others being okay--as a matter of fact, that very mentality of looking down on others is a symptom of these imbalances!

he still stands

angelica wrote:

Which reminds me....

I talk about the 95% and the western world being "messed up" because I have some sense of what that means.

You're right, sorry to imply that if one commits suicide they are "messed up"... I know now that if you take your own life that you are mentally healthy.

angelica wrote:

This is NOT about one country being messed up and others being okay--as a matter of fact, that very mentality of looking down on others is a symptom of these imbalances

angelica wrote:

Whos looking down on others??? It was said that the so-called "prosperous world" barring Japan was "psychologically messed up"... obviously the correct nomenclature.... all I was saying is that isn't an accurate statement because the country with the highest suicide rate shouldn't be implied as the least psychologically messed up.

But going back to my above statement, I know now that suicide implies mental wellness, so I retract my previous statment.

PaperPlates

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
The liberal left along with hollywood and the like have made us a nation of "man-girls".

Why take responsibility for your actions/situation/life when you can blame your parents? Or your teachers? Or your friends? Hell, anyone but yourself. Japan has a high suicide rate DUE to their level of personal responsibility. I fucked up, I've mad a mess of things, IM going to fix it. Not saying their way of "fixing it" is right. But they don't blame others. They put the blame for their situations where it belongs. On themselves. Everyone creates their own reality, just not everyone accepts nor acknowledgest that fact.

angelica

PaperPlates wrote:

Everyone creates their own reality, just not everyone accepts nor acknowledgest that fact.

I agree with this 100%.

The catch is that many people are unconsciously creating their own reality--beyond their awareness, and they blame everyone for what is happening in their lives, rather than accepting responsibility.

angelica

he still stands wrote:

You're right, sorry to imply that if one commits suicide they are "messed up"... I know now that if you take your own life that you are mentally healthy.

I apologise if I was unclear. It looks like you felt my comments were directed to you. They were not. I took no issue with what you said, it's just that your post triggered my recall that I needed to clarify my original point, which this entire thread was (possibly falsely) based upon.

he still stands

angelica wrote:

I apologise if I was unclear. It looks like you felt my comments were directed to you. They were not. I took no issue with what you said, it's just that your post triggered my recall that I needed to clarify my original point, which this entire thread was (possibly falsely) based upon.

my apologies... I feel like an idiot.

angelica

he still stands wrote:

my apologies... I feel like an idiot.

No, problem. I think it's safe to assume we've all felt that way at one time or another out here.