why???

IndianSummer

intrigued by the following comment -

angelica wrote:

The problem is that 95% of us ARE such children!

95% of us in the western world are considered psychologically messed up. We were all born into families with challenges and problems. Many of us choose to have children and "toy" with them, and continue the cycles of our own dysfunction. It's human nature.

i want to ask... WHY???

why should the most prosperous part of the world barring maybe japan, be the most psychologically messed up???

how much of a contributing factor are the following

1) the high rate of broken marriages

2) the pill and the bedroom revolution that followed

3) labour class culture that became so popular

4) the western society could only have declined. i mean the stranglehold of the west on the world ever since colonisation began and till it ended with WW2 - couldnt get any more dominant. so after the ww2, while western dominance started slowly declining, western society meanwhile was facing a problem of abundance. people in asia and africa were starving while most people in the non-commie west at least had all basic things. i mean to say, all this affleuce made for an entire society of "spoilt children" in the west. could that be a reason??



i'd appreciate if people gave their answers/opinions to each of the four points and added a few that i could have missed out.

Pearl Jam and toast

indian summer wrote:

all this affleuce made for an entire society of "spoilt children" in the west. could that be a reason??

I dont think i have an answer that directly addresses the points, but i believe that our affluence is what spoiled us.

Yes we're spoiled.

But i think if more of us (and on a wide-scale) put our benefits and affluence into the world to do good we wouldn't be so "spoiled".

This increasing gap between rich and poor is a threat to the possibility of doing that.. but that's another topic.

Milhouse VanHouten

IndianSummer wrote:

how much of a contributing factor are the following

1) the high rate of broken marriages

2) the pill and the bedroom revolution that followed

3) labour class culture that became so popular

4) the western society could only have declined. i mean the stranglehold of the west on the world ever since colonisation began and till it ended with WW2 - couldnt get any more dominant. so after the ww2, while western dominance started slowly declining, western society meanwhile was facing a problem of abundance. people in asia and africa were starving while most people in the non-commie west at least had all basic things. i mean to say, all this affleuce made for an entire society of "spoilt children" in the west. could that be a reason??

Out of the four things you mentioned, I'd be inclined to partially agree with #4. A consumer driven culture like ours is bound to suffer when so much emphasis is put on acquiring wealth and material goods.

On #1, I'm not sure that broken marriages are a symptom of the problem or a cause of the problem. On the other hand, I'm not sure that the increased freedom for women to be granted a divorce isn't a good thing. Which leads us to #2...

I'm really unsure how giving women increased control over their reproductive choices is bad in any way.

#3: what do you mean by "labor class culture"??

Eva7

IndianSummer wrote:

intrigued by the following comment -




i want to ask... WHY???

why should the most prosperous part of the world barring maybe japan, be the most psychologically messed up???

how much of a contributing factor are the following

1) the high rate of broken marriages

2) the pill and the bedroom revolution that followed

3) labour class culture that became so popular

4) the western society could only have declined. i mean the stranglehold of the west on the world ever since colonisation began and till it ended with WW2 - couldnt get any more dominant. so after the ww2, while western dominance started slowly declining, western society meanwhile was facing a problem of abundance. people in asia and africa were starving while most people in the non-commie west at least had all basic things. i mean to say, all this affleuce made for an entire society of "spoilt children" in the west. could that be a reason??



i'd appreciate if people gave their answers/opinions to each of the four points and added a few that i could have missed out.

I don't know what Angelica was referring to, but in general I think that people in the western world is messed up from several factors: a stressful lifestyle imposed by the consumption/production system; loss of cultural values and roots; loss of touch with nature; imposed models by media, tv and various entertainment forms that prevent people to understand and practise their natural inclinations and creative forms of relationship with the surrounding reality; a life style preventing more social participation; wild individualism (or "the unique thinking" creating a general mindset concerned basically on the value of "personal success").
That said, I don't think that in the past people were less messed up. I think they were in other ways and for different reasons. I basically think that the human mind is "naturally" messed up.

CenterCity

Milhouse VanHouten wrote:

Out of the four things you mentioned, I'd be inclined to partially agree with #4. A consumer driven culture like ours is bound to suffer when so much emphasis is put on acquiring wealth and material goods.

On #1, I'm not sure that broken marriages are a symptom of the problem or a cause of the problem. On the other hand, I'm not sure that the increased freedom for women to be granted a divorce isn't a good thing. Which leads us to #2...

I'm really unsure how giving women increased control over their reproductive choices is bad in any way.

#3: what do you mean by "labor class culture"??

hi milhouse:
your pm box is full.

IndianSummer

Milhouse VanHouten wrote:

#3: what do you mean by "labor class culture"??

yes #2 is probably the effect not the cause. but this effect caused more children to be "messed up" and in turn begad more broken marriages.


as for labour class culture - beatles, jeans, long hair, tatooes, swear words in songs and literature, an "anti elite" movement of all sorts.

pearl jamm_n 4-life

there are obviously many reasons. but lets look at it for what it is. money, moral values and social status. they all go hand in hand. we are a prosperous nation due to our financial status. and most peoples desire for money supercedes the desire to maintain solid moral values. My grandparents and parents posses solid values. which i have developed and chosen to keep. my drive, not to be like the majority of individuals here who value the superficial things in life more than the simple things. social status is always an intangiable. its practicing what you have been taught, and then preaching it. well, these days too many kids are not taught. the envelope is constantly being pushed in society, the more wierd, the more elaborate, the craziest, fastest, shiniest, coolest, all of them. they are a social burden, with an added pressure on todays young society, moreso than in the past 25 years. and parents are in these binds as well. so, what does that teach teh child? not very good values. its ok to want to fit in, or be part of something. but too many people these days cant understand, if they dont like you for who you are. then fuck em. our country is sliding tragically on its values both personally and socially. and argue all you want, what you believe is what you are. and if you believe in those superficial means, then your kids fall into those same outlooks on life. lets not make life bigger than it already is. small, and simple. Teach to appreciate, respect, love, and mostly learn. I could go on forever, but i think ive made my point.

IndianSummer

Eva7 wrote:

I don't know what Angelica was referring to, but in general I think that people in the western world is messed up from several factors:

a stressful lifestyle imposed by the consumption/production system;

loss of cultural values and roots;

imposed models by media, tv and various entertainment forms that prevent people to understand and practise their natural inclinations and creative forms of relationship with the surrounding reality;

wild individualism (or "the unique thinking" creating a general mindset concerned basically on the value of "personal success").

interestingly enough, the commie eastern europe which is as western and "white" (in fact more so) then western europe and north america, has less of a stressful lifestyle, less consumerism, less of media hammering, and supressed individualism (to an extent i dont advocate... i dont advoce the "totally free to do what i want to" attitude of western europe either - thats what leads to nudist colonies and gereneral wierdoishness) - anyway the commie eastern europen belt scored less on all counts - and indeed they have less broken marrieges, less kids born out of wedlock, less drug addicts etc = less "psychologically challenged".

so you are prolly right.

Eva7 wrote:

I basically think that the human mind is "naturally" messed up.

to some extent you are right.

Milhouse VanHouten

IndianSummer wrote:

as for labour class culture - beatles, jeans, long hair, tatooes, swear words in songs and literature, an "anti elite" movement of all sorts.

I'm not sure how "labour class culture" could be considered detrimental in any way. The only thing better than "labour class culture" might be birth control.

What alternative to "labour class culture" would you prefer to see?

Milhouse VanHouten

CenterCity wrote:

hi milhouse:
your pm box is full.

Gotcha.

CenterCity

IndianSummer wrote:

intrigued by the following comment -




i want to ask... WHY???

why should the most prosperous part of the world barring maybe japan, be the most psychologically messed up???

how much of a contributing factor are the following

1) the high rate of broken marriages

2) the pill and the bedroom revolution that followed

3) labour class culture that became so popular

4) the western society could only have declined. i mean the stranglehold of the west on the world ever since colonisation began and till it ended with WW2 - couldnt get any more dominant. so after the ww2, while western dominance started slowly declining, western society meanwhile was facing a problem of abundance. people in asia and africa were starving while most people in the non-commie west at least had all basic things. i mean to say, all this affleuce made for an entire society of "spoilt children" in the west. could that be a reason??



i'd appreciate if people gave their answers/opinions to each of the four points and added a few that i could have missed out.

1. people seem to still be rebeling against the.....this is it notion.....being with one person for the rest of your life is absolute. ----from the past till the 50's
2. ode to the sexual revolution. of the 60s
3. labor class culture: more about the middle class.....where change happens the most....so the middle class becomes important....compared to the upper and lower economic classes.....
4. its not so much about spoiled children....as much as living in an a naive Americain bubble. yawn.

angelica

I agree that the human mind in general at this time is at a point in evolution where it is basically messed up. Considering psychology knows how to create healthy, well-adjusted people at this time as well, I don't at all believe that it is our natural state to be messed up at all. There ARE healthy, well-adjusted people out there. They've been studied, and it's well understood what the differences are between them and the rest of the population.

The problem is most of us are caught up in all the crazy symptoms of "more", "excess" etc. and accepting that pale imitation of happiness as our lot in life. We're accepting chasing our tails rather than seeking to outlet our true dreams and desires. Sadly, many of us believe it's impossible to make our dreams come true. If we have no desire to find health, and if we don't believe there is more out there, we will not seek it.

The fact that we feel happy and joyous when things are going well for us is an evolutionary carrot that directs us to our happiness and our dreams. However, we've been told to ignore our imaginations and our emotions and to be "reasonable"--we're not to follow silly dreams. We decided to believe such a crippled idea and we're paying for it despite the urgings of nature all around us.

IndianSummer

where does the solution lie???

if anything the whole world is becomming consumer-ish. eastern europe, asia and in future africa would too.

asians in the west are as messed up as their western counterparts. so influx wont improve things one bit.

on the other hand westerners who have taken to buddhism/yoga/zen/etc seem to be more er.. "mature" and with more values.

Eva7

IndianSummer wrote:

interestingly enough, the commie eastern europe which is as western and "white" (in fact more so) then western europe and north america, has less of a stressful lifestyle, less consumerism, less of media hammering, and supressed individualism (to an extent i dont advocate... i dont advoce the "totally free to do what i want to" attitude of western europe either - thats what leads to nudist colonies and gereneral wierdoishness) - anyway the commie eastern europen belt scored less on all counts - and indeed they have less broken marrieges, less kids born out of wedlock, less drug addicts etc = less "psychologically challenged".

so you are prolly right.

Well, I don't know if they have less of all these things, but I think they have other problems, most of all that their traditional values and culture are mainly "messed up", or actually have collapsed, by the consumeristic western model, which has brought in their countries various wild forms of mafia, prostitution, labor exploitation. Here I am not saying that our life style and models are wrong (even though I think so! ), but I certainly believe those things I have listed are mostly cause of the psychological mess you were asking about.....and I want to add that to avoid such psychological mess, it is absolutely necessary to analyze our personal attitude and role in this mess, and find our inner path and "antibodies" (I am sure Angelica knows what I mean ), considering the good things pearl jamm'n 4-life said.

Eva7

IndianSummer wrote:

where does the solution lie???

if anything the whole world is becomming consumer-ish. eastern europe, asia and in future africa would too.

asians in the west are as messed up as their western counterparts. so influx wont improve things one bit.

on the other hand westerners who have taken to buddhism/yoga/zen/etc seem to be more er.. "mature" and with more values.

maybe the solution lies only inside yourself. maybe there is no need of solution. Maybe this is the way things have to go. Maybe the solution will be found in the course of the events. Maybe the fact that you are wondering these things means that a solution is close to be found.

angelica

Eva7 wrote:

...and I want to add that to avoid such psychological mess, it is absolutely necessary to analyze our personal attitude and role in this mess, and find our inner path and "antibodies" (I am sure Angelica knows what I mean )

...I agree, the solution is for each of us to analyse our personal attitude and our own role. That's the only reality we have any control over, and that's okay, because it's by far the most important to us in our own world. We can literally change our own world, which triggers change all around us.

Eva7

angelica wrote:

...I agree, the solution is for each of us to analyse our personal attitude and our own role. That's the only reality we have any control over, and that's okay, because it's by far the most important to us in our own world. We can literally change our own world, which triggers change all around us.

yeah, I mean, It may seem a very abstract concept, but it is not. Once you have certain things clear and make your choices, and other people do the same, then you and others act in your daily life, and share these acts with others, and many things can really change through a sort of collective unconscious or conscious awareness. I believe that individual awareness never comes alone. It always comes together with a collective awareness, none here is particularly enlightened, I think. Things develope inside ourselves and outside outselves. It's the only way things have always developed and changed in history.

angelica

IndianSummer wrote:

where does the solution lie???

if anything the whole world is becomming consumer-ish. eastern europe, asia and in future africa would too.

asians in the west are as messed up as their western counterparts. so influx wont improve things one bit.

on the other hand westerners who have taken to buddhism/yoga/zen/etc seem to be more er.. "mature" and with more values.

The answers are very clear: the key is that we have not been raised in emotionally healthy ways. When our families did not teach us how to manage our emotions in healthy ways, we became imbalanced. We've developed logic and acquired knowledge in school, and yet we don't have balance. We have our emotional selves split off and we think it's normal--because it IS normal. It's not healthy, however. We think we're fine because everyone around us is the same. We look at other people and we see how messed up they are--yet we can't see how messed up we are because we don't have the inner lenses--the skills to allow us to understand and fix it.

Here is the key: Each of our dysfunctions--our tv addiction, addiction to nicotine, caffeine, alcohol, drugs, our shopaholism, our workaholism, our religion-overload, our mental illnesses, our eating disorders, our abusive ways, etc, etc, etc.... Our each personal issues hold the key for each one of us to begin unlocking the negative patterns. We have to want to do it, though. When we want to become unaddicted, or stop the workaholism or the shopaholism or the tv addiction, the programs--the information is out there. By taking these paths we DO learn the skills we are lacking and it does turn around.

Everything else is the symptom of the true problem, which is our emotional stuntedness. We were raised by emotionally stunted people and we'll probably raise emotionally stunted people until we decide to stop the patterns, and find our way to health.

angelica

Eva7 wrote:

maybe the solution lies only inside yourself. maybe there is no need of solution. Maybe this is the way things have to go. Maybe the solution will be found in the course of the events. Maybe the fact that you are wondering these things means that a solution is close to be found.

I also agree totally with this. I believe that what is happening is happening exactly the way it has to happen. There is nothing "wrong". I believe the solution is in the course of events. My biggest thing is that if we are aware of these dynamics, we will begin to see it around us. It seems abstract to fix something we don't understand, but to just become aware, we will start to notice little things and those little things will lead us to small yet profound changes. It's very dynamic.

Eva7 wrote:

yeah, I mean, It may seem a very abstract concept, but it is not. Once you have certain things clear and make your choices, and other people do the same, then you and others act in your daily life, and share these acts with others, and many things can really change through a sort of collective unconscious or conscious awareness. I believe that individual awareness never comes alone. It always comes together with a collective awareness, none here is particularly enlightened, I think. Things develope inside ourselves and outside outselves. It's the only way things have always developed and changed in history.

It's the way they are developing and changing now. We are ourselves while also being an important part in the whole of things. We're so much more powerful than most of us understand.

We are evolving into a new age. We humans are waking up and recognising our own individual power. We are becomomg aware of exactly what we contribute. We are also realising the need to contribute to life with awareness and by being constructive. The usual "programs" that we've been programmed with are deconstructing and falling away. Because we are letting go of what does not work, we will learn to be present in our lives in each moment and to create at one with ourselves. We are learning to let go of letting the past dictate where we are going, for we are realising we continue to recreate the past by limiting ourselves to ideas of what has come before. We are learning to create NOW. We are learning that we can change anything in the now, rather than be stuck due to past choices. We are becoming activated instead of being numbed up. It's very exciting.

Eva7

angelica wrote:

I also agree totally with this. I believe that what is happening is happening exactly the way it has to happen. There is nothing "wrong". I believe the solution is in the course of events. My biggest thing is that if we are aware of these dynamics, we will begin to see it around us. It seems abstract to fix something we don't understand, but to just become aware, we will start to notice little things and those little things will lead us to small yet profound changes. It's very dynamic.

It's the way they are developing and changing now. We are ourselves while also being an important part in the whole of things. We're so much more powerful than most of us understand.

We are evolving into a new age. We humans are waking up and recognising our own individual power. We are becomomg aware of exactly what we contribute. We are also realising the need to contribute to life with awareness and by being constructive. The usual "programs" that we've been programmed with are deconstructing and falling away. Because we are letting go of what does not work, we will learn to be present in our lives in each moment and to create at one with ourselves. We are learning to let go of letting the past dictate where we are going, for we are realising we continue to recreate the past by limiting ourselves to ideas of what has come before. We are learning to create NOW. We are learning that we can change anything in the now, rather than be stuck due to past choices. We are becoming activated instead of being numbed up. It's very exciting.

you're very encouraging Angelica! Actually I believe that the "we" you mention is still a minority though...... I hope there will be enough time for things to evolve in the way you're figuring. thanks for the good vision, a great way to say goodbye for today.

angelica

Eva7 wrote:

you're very encouraging Angelica! Actually I believe that the "we" you mention is still a minority though...... I hope there will be enough time for things to evolve in the way you're figuring. thanks for the good vision, a great way to say goodbye for today.

Thanks, Eva.

If you consider the "we" that is a minority(and I agree with that), and then imagine the effects each person has on the person next to them and continue multiplying the effects, it's very powerful. There is constant evolution going on all the time if we look to see beneath the surface.

I realise this change will happen over time. I do see the mind shift happening, and I've personally been through a lot of it. So have many others. Therefore people are spreading the "map" around. This "map" is showing others how to get to a better place. The map shows people that we no longer have to be controlled by the past. We can step out of the cycles. It's understandable that the process, including others deciding to start their own journey, will take time. It only takes an instant for each person to "get" this idea and to turn to take off on their own exciting adventure, though!

Have a great day, everyone.