why???

angelica

know1 wrote:

Actually, Psychology is one of my favorite subjects.

I maintain that you're are placing too much relevance on searching for external sources to answer why someone is messed up. You give that far too much credibility. Ultimately, I believe people are more responsible for their own actions than "society" or their parents are.

You said you disagree with the original quote. I'm assuming you mean this : "95% of us in the western world are considered psychologically messed up. We were all born into families with challenges and problems."

Do you disagree that most families have problems and challenges? I don't think there would be much need for the study of psychology if most families or people did not have problems and challenges. Is the psychology you like about those who don't have problems?

know1

angelica wrote:

You said you disagree with the original quote. I'm assuming you mean this : "95% of us in the western world are considered psychologically messed up. We were all born into families with challenges and problems."

Do you disagree that most families have problems and challenges? I don't think there would be much need for the study of psychology if most families or people did not have problems and challenges. Is the psychology you like about those who don't have problems?

No - I disagree that 95% are considered psychologically messed up.

angelica

know1, you say that I place too much relevence on searching for external sources--that I give it far too much credibility.

I don't believe I do so at all. I realise it is only the individual who can rectify their own problems. In this thread alone, I said things like:

angelica wrote:

The problem is most of us are caught up in all the crazy symptoms of "more", "excess" etc. and accepting that pale imitation of happiness as our lot in life. We're accepting chasing our tails rather than seeking to outlet our true dreams and desires. Sadly, many of us believe it's impossible to make our dreams come true. If we have no desire to find health, and if we don't believe there is more out there, we will not seek it.

The fact that we feel happy and joyous when things are going well for us is an evolutionary carrot that directs us to our happiness and our dreams. However, we've been told to ignore our imaginations and our emotions and to be "reasonable"--we're not to follow silly dreams. We decided to believe such a crippled idea and we're paying for it despite the urgings of nature all around us.

or:

angelica wrote:

I agree, the solution is for each of us to analyse our personal attitude and our own role. That's the only reality we have any control over, and that's okay, because it's by far the most important to us in our own world. We can literally change our own world, which triggers change all around us.

angelica wrote:

Here is the key: Each of our dysfunctions--our tv addiction, addiction to nicotine, caffeine, alcohol, drugs, our shopaholism, our workaholism, our religion-overload, our mental illnesses, our eating disorders, our abusive ways, etc, etc, etc.... Our each personal issues hold the key for each one of us to begin unlocking the negative patterns. We have to want to do it, though. When we want to become unaddicted, or stop the workaholism or the shopaholism or the tv addiction, the programs--the information is out there. By taking these paths we DO learn the skills we are lacking and it does turn around.

and:

angelica wrote:

We humans are waking up and recognising our own individual power. We are becomomg aware of exactly what we contribute. We are also realising the need to contribute to life with awareness and by being constructive. The usual "programs" that we've been programmed with are deconstructing and falling away. Because we are letting go of what does not work, we will learn to be present in our lives in each moment and to create at one with ourselves. We are learning to let go of letting the past dictate where we are going, for we are realising we continue to recreate the past by limiting ourselves to ideas of what has come before. We are learning to create NOW. We are learning that we can change anything in the now, rather than be stuck due to past choices. We are becoming activated instead of being numbed up.

I think it is quite clear that I believe each individual is responsible for their own problems and dysfunction, and that only they can turn it around for themselves.

Edit: I want to add that I place the RELEVENT accountability on external sources for exactly the actions they have on the individual and for the consequences of their exact actions--nothing more, and definitely nothing less. For example, parents are 100% responsible for how they raise their children, mistakes they make and for the consequences for such actions.

CenterCity

IndianSummer wrote:

its pronounced "shunkh" and literally means "conch".

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f67/GITadmin/varanasi/ARATI7.jpg

speaking of the shunkh, i was at a sitar concert a while ago, and the sitar player wasn't sitting or taking the stance that you're suppose to take traditionally when playing the sitar. he was playing it like a guitar. is something like that acceptable? in other words, does it still respect classical indian music----that is, playing the sitar like a guitar? i personally think its fine----its just out of concern and respect for heritage and tradition----i'm like well that's not how the sitar's suppose to be played.....i mean is something like that okay?

SadPanda

I think that there are TOO many people, who want TOO much stuff, and they all want it RIGHT NOW!


There is a book out .... I think its called AFFLUENZA .... I checked it out at the Library some years ago ........
we are ALL creating the problems ..... every thing we do each day makes the problem get bigger ............ we want to be entertained too much and not educated !


this was a really good topic!

NCfan

Eva7 wrote:

I don't know what Angelica was referring to, but in general I think that people in the western world is messed up from several factors: a stressful lifestyle imposed by the consumption/production system; loss of cultural values and roots; loss of touch with nature; imposed models by media, tv and various entertainment forms that prevent people to understand and practise their natural inclinations and creative forms of relationship with the surrounding reality; a life style preventing more social participation; wild individualism (or "the unique thinking" creating a general mindset concerned basically on the value of "personal success").
That said, I don't think that in the past people were less messed up. I think they were in other ways and for different reasons. I basically think that the human mind is "naturally" messed up.

Awesome post - glad to agree with you on something!

Laz

The question I have is why are we so disguested with all this? What is it inside of us that despises what Western Civ has become?

IndianSummer

meanwhile the question i have is how come japan (and to some extent south korea and taiwan), which is no less affluent, developed, industrialised than most if not all western nations, can retain its values, can rever their parents and ancestors, can preserve marriages, has lesser children born out of wedlock, has fewer teen agers taking to drugs, fewer rape cases, more values, religious tolerance etc etc.

IndianSummer

Laz wrote:

The question I have is why are we so disguested with all this? What is it inside of us that despises what Western Civ has become?

befoe that, let us get one thing cleared up first -

question - what is so despicable about what "western civ" has become??


after we have that answer, we could try and find out why some people find it so despicable.

rebornFixer

That 95% stat is a complete crock of bull, by the way. The actual stat is somewhere between 20 and 30 percent meeting criteria for some form of mental disorder, and that rate is NOT higher than the rate seen in most non-Western countries.

SadPanda

IndianSummer wrote:

meanwhile the question i have is how come japan (and to some extent south korea and taiwan), which is no less affluent, developed, industrialised than most if not all western nations, can retain its values, can rever their parents and ancestors, can preserve marriages, has lesser children born out of wedlock, has fewer teen agers taking to drugs, fewer rape cases, more values, religious tolerance etc etc.

But not all statistics are right because some of these things that happen are not reported ......
rapes for instance or babies born out of wedlock ... they could be aborted and nobody would know ... I think they are no better off than we are ........ but I think one of the BIG things in this country that messes up A LOT of people is how we listen to everything that is being marketed to us .... (not every single person of course) but ............. ITS ALL AROUND YOU .... Dress this way, watch this movie, watch this show, buy this it will make you more attractive, buy this it will make you smarter, buy that it will make you lose weight ...........In the US we buy more into all of that I think .......
....we are chasing the "american dream"

which is to have all the looks and have all the toys.

In those countries they are probably ....more satisfied with having what they need!

....that is just my take on it ...???

angelica

reborncareerist wrote:

That 95% stat is a complete crock of bull, by the way. The actual stat is somewhere between 20 and 30 percent meeting criteria for some form of mental disorder, and that rate is NOT higher than the rate seen in most non-Western countries.

The percentage of psychologically healthy people is estimated at 2% according to Abraham Maslow's widely accepted theory of self-actualised people who are at one with themselves, realistic and not coping with their problems using some form of dysfunction to keep an inner balance.

Conversely, pick up any book on co-dependency. I've seen this number in numerous books. It is believed to be 95% of the population that has coping skills that do not meet their emotional needs in healthy ways, thereby causing the individual to cut off from their true self. This includes any kind of addiction (which includes caffeine addiction, or sugar addictions, nicotine addiction). Although these addicitions are looked upon as acceptable in the "norm", they still carry with it the mentally stagnating effect of addiction). This stat includes all disorders, addictions, dysfunctions: workaholism, shopaholism, sex addiction, religious addiction, drugs, alcohol, medication misuse etc. It includes those who are addicted to addicts of any kind (including all of the above) or who are drawn to unhealthy connections with those who dysfunction in other ways. Such people use the addict's drama as a smokescreen to hide from their own problems. There are gambling problems, compulsive shoplifters....you name it, someone around you has it: broken marriages, broken families, intact but dysfunctioning relationships, people who deal with their problems by using power abuse. Those who accept power abuse and submit. Unwanted pregnancies in any sense.... And this is beyond the more sensationalised disorders like schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder, OCD, ADD, multiple personality disorder, socio/psychopathy, etc.

While such a state of life is "normal" at this time--we've got our issues on a very wide scale-- psychology can say it's not healthy when compared to those who learn to develop coping skills that enable them to unfold in life-affirming ways. Such ways are defined in that they empower humans to outlet who they are--their potential, rather than cause them to stagnate in imbalance, living in the small-ego way, far from wholeness. Again, the healthy ones are 2% of the population.

Laz

IndianSummer wrote:

befoe that, let us get one thing cleared up first -

question - what is so despicable about what "western civ" has become??


after we have that answer, we could try and find out why some people find it so despicable.

Isn't the gripe here with the decadence? We have the most of any country yet we're not content. No one likes a spoiled child yet that is what we in America have become, no?

decides2dream

angelica wrote:

You said you disagree with the original quote. I'm assuming you mean this : "95% of us in the western world are considered psychologically messed up. We were all born into families with challenges and problems."

Do you disagree that most families have problems and challenges? I don't think there would be much need for the study of psychology if most families or people did not have problems and challenges. Is the psychology you like about those who don't have problems?

if 95% of anyone had anything that 'common'...how is it then messed up?...i'd then think it's the norm, personally. EVERYone has problems and challenges..it's simply called living. sure, there are SOME more greatly challenged than others, and i have no idea how large/small a # that may be.....but i would think it is no where near 95%...b/c again, then that would just be considered 'normal'...whatever that is. i think we al have our issues, but i think that's life...you learn, you deal...you do the best you can. some require more help along the way and i hope all get what they need......but i don't see any need to go and label everything and everyone in such a manner....some of it is simply LIFE.


and yea...i've had more than my fair share of psych/sociology courses and love it too.....but one needs to take responsibility for who they are. i take no issue with the whole idea of 'self-actualization' etc......but sure, many just simply don't give a shit. haha. seriously, even if 95% are not 'self-actualized'... does that really mean their lives are unhappy, discontent? so yea.....i think we can throw around all the labels we like, and who knoiws...maybe it's all true...but in the scheme of things, i really don't think such matters all that much......happiness can be achieved for most w/o 'self-actualization'...or whatever.

angelica

decides2dream wrote:

if 95% of anyone had anything that 'common'...how is it then messed up?...i'd then think it's the norm, personally.

I did address this fact in my last post. It is the norm, it's just not operating in a healthy balanced way. Normal and healthy are two very different things. At this point in our evolution, it's normal to be imbalanced.

EVERYone has problems and challenges..it's simply called living. sure, there are SOME more greatly challenged than others, and i have no idea how large/small a # that may be.....but i would think it is no where near 95%...b/c again, then that would just be considered 'normal'...whatever that is.

Again, yep, it's totally normal to be imbalanced. And yet, it's still imbalanced. I don't come up with the 95% figure--it's psychological study that makes such distinctions--I just share what I've learned.

i think we al have our issues, but i think that's life...you learn, you deal...you do the best you can. some require more help along the way and i hope all get what they need......but i don't see any need to go and label everything and everyone in such a manner....some of it is simply LIFE.

The psychology profession names and defines the varying ways we develop and experience disorder, so that we can define our problems. Once we figure out what the problem is, and accept that, it's the first step to solving it. "Beginning is half done".

With proper understanding of what we are dealing with, we are empowered to seek the correct path in solving our problems. It's great if we don't want to solve our problems, and yet, it's important to remember the solutions are out there if we seek them.

and yea...i've had more than my fair share of psych/sociology courses and love it too.....but one needs to take responsibility for who they are.

I agree 100%.

i take no issue with the whole idea of 'self-actualization' etc......but sure, many just simply don't give a shit. haha. seriously, even if 95% are not 'self-actualized'... does that really mean their lives are unhappy, discontent? so yea.....i think we can throw around all the labels we like, and who knoiws...maybe it's all true...but in the scheme of things, i really don't think such matters all that much......happiness can be achieved for most w/o 'self-actualization'...or whatever.

Life is colourful and diverse, and I think all aspects of the human condition have a certain beauty--the good/bad or indifferent. Imo, the key is that it's up to the individual--when one feels pain and discomfort and wants to find solutions to their problems, great, the help and support is there. If they do not, people are beautiful and special at every stage of the game.

IndianSummer

SadPanda wrote:

....we are chasing the "american dream"



In those countries they are probably ....more satisfied with having what they need!

i think i agree... i never heard of a japanese dream yet.

SadPanda

IndianSummer wrote:

i think i agree... i never heard of a japanese dream yet.

ya ...maybe their dream is usually to move over here ...YIKES

SadPanda

...OH YA ... I forgot the part about having the McMansion ...with a 4 car garage and drive a SUBURBAN/SCHOOL BUS .... with your 2.5 kids in tow & be part of the OPRAH book of the month club... yay! oh what fun!

decides2dream

angelica wrote:

I did address this fact in my last post. It is the norm, it's just not operating in a healthy balanced way. Normal and healthy are two very different things. At this point in our evolution, it's normal to be imbalanced.

Again, yep, it's totally normal to be imbalanced. And yet, it's still imbalanced. I don't come up with the 95% figure--it's psychological study that makes such distinctions--I just share what I've learned.

The psychology profession names and defines the varying ways we develop and experience disorder, so that we can define our problems. Once we figure out what the problem is, and accept that, it's the first step to solving it. "Beginning is half done".

With proper understanding of what we are dealing with, we are empowered to seek the correct path in solving our problems. It's great if we don't want to solve our problems, and yet, it's important to remember the solutions are out there if we seek them.

I agree 100%.

Life is colourful and diverse, and I think all aspects of the human condition have a certain beauty--the good/bad or indifferent. Imo, the key is that it's up to the individual--when one feels pain and discomfort and wants to find solutions to their problems, great, the help and support is there. If they do not, people are beautiful and special at every stage of the game.

sure, i get all that. point is, what exactly is healthy'...if say 95% of the population is fuctioning, seemingly normal/happy/healthy? that's all i am saying. sure, we can all strive to do better, and perhaps we don't have the best role models and/or best coping strategies...i just think sometimes we get too caught up in the labels, and should simply try and BE. even within dysfunction...and there seems to be varying degrees if dysfunction everywhere...we can strive for our happiness and not get so hung up on analyzing it all.....that's all. i am all for self-discovery, but i am also all for the art of living, enjoying the here and now...and not continually worrying/sriving for this unattainable 'perfection of self.'

angelica

decides2dream wrote:

sure, i get all that. point is, what exactly is healthy'...if say 95% of the population is fuctioning, seemingly normal/happy/healthy? that's all i am saying. sure, we can all strive to do better, and perhaps we don't have the best role models and/or best coping strategies...i just think sometimes we get too caught up in the labels, and should simply try and BE. even within dysfunction...and there seems to be varying degrees if dysfunction everywhere...we can strive for our happiness and not get so hung up on analyzing it all.....that's all. i am all for self-discovery, but i am also all for the art of living, enjoying the here and now...and not continually worrying/sriving for this unattainable 'perfection of self.'

The idea of the 95% being unhealthy refers to the fact that people generally are crippled in meeting their base emotional needs. They then develop all kinds of disorders to carry the burden for them. The problem is the disorders don't solve the problem and instead add more pain. Sometimes the pain is unbearable and people seek a way out. I support that.

I agree with most of what you say here. I believe we ALL--no matter what stage we are at--can begin to just be and accept ourselves, warts and all.

This thread and my comments here stemmed from the comments in the "gay people raising children" thread which said essentially: should gay people force children to endure having gay parents, with the problems associated with it? My answer was, why not? We ALL have our problems and raise children anyway, so why should gay people be any different?