why???

IndianSummer

about 2 months ago, i was travelling in a place called Darjeeling in india.

I was in a car, with 3 other americans, all girls, one rock climber and 2 twin sisters. and also an irish guy.

along the way to Pelling, we saw lots of huts and tea gardens and saw people and working there or doing household stuff (drying out their clothes etc). those people live a hand to mouth existance or only slightly better - but the kids wore huge smiles, waved at us and loked so cheerful. the rock climber commented to the twins - "their kids are so much happier than our kids".

surferdude

IndianSummer wrote:

about 2 months ago, i was travelling in a place called Darjeeling in india.

I was in a car, with 3 other americans, all girls, one rock climber and 2 twin sisters. and also an irish guy.

along the way to Pelling, we saw lots of huts and tea gardens and saw people and working there or doing household stuff (drying out their clothes etc). those people live a hand to mouth existance or only slightly better - but the kids wore huge smiles, waved at us and loked so cheerful. the rock climber commented to the twins - "their kids are so much happier than our kids".

But we have demonized being poor and promoted the idoltry of self. We have decided that we don't want their type of happiness even if it resigns us to less happy lives.

IndianSummer

i think the success of the west (w-europe and n.america) at fighting communism at the macro level, has screwed up the mentality of the people into becomming ultra-consumers at a micro-level.

angelica

surferdude wrote:

But we have demonized being poor and promoted the idoltry of self. We have decided that we don't want their type of happiness even if it resigns us to less happy lives.

First off, I loved your story, IndianSummer, and it's implications.

I agree surferdude that we've got some zany ideas of what success "should" be. Unfortunately we lose touch with simplicity and happiness.

I'm a bit caught on the term "self". In all of my understandings, it's the actual inner self we must listen to, including emotional, spiritual, etc. It's the false outer "more"-obsessed so called shadow-self that people mistakenly idolise. We have been taught to identify with our false masks rather than identify with who we really are. No wonder we feel empty and continuously seek and hunger for anything to fill the void.

surferdude

angelica wrote:

First off, I loved your story, IndianSummer, and it's implications.

I agree surferdude that we've got some zany ideas of what success "should" be. Unfortunately we lose touch with simplicity and happiness.

I'm a bit caught on the term "self". In all of my understandings, it's the actual inner self we must listen to, including emotional, spiritual, etc. It's the false outer "more"-obsessed so called shadow-self that people mistakenly idolise. We have been taught to identify with our false masks rather than identify with who we really are. No wonder we feel empty and continuously seek and hunger for anything to fill the void.

By self I was meaning more the individual is celbrated now more than the community. Acting on behalf of anyone other than yourself is no longer an expectation. For a good many the idea "that the good of the many out weigh the good of the few" has no meaning. Doing the right thing has lost all meaning.

angelica

surferdude wrote:

By self I was meaning more the individual is celbrated now more than the community. Acting on behalf of anyone other than yourself is no longer an expectation. For a good many the idea "that the good of the many out weigh the good of the few" has no meaning. Doing the right thing has lost all meaning.

Good point. I believe there must be a balance between the self and the community--for sure.

There is a large group of people who are unhealthy because they don't know that they can only help others when they take good care of themselves, first. My mental illnesses happened to a large degree because I was unable to balance my own needs with my concern for others. I took my own concerns out of the equation and many of my actions that were meant to help backfired because of my own lack of self. Many times it is women who are trained to do so.

I totally agree when you talk about people who go too far in the other direction and are selfish and put themselves above others. The problem is that the underlying problem is the same. When such individuals on either side of the coin learn to truly meet their REAL needs--ie: emotional needs that they've been taught to deny--they naturally find ways to be balanced with all of life around them. Healthy people by definition understand life is an even playing field and we are all equal, with strengths and weaknesses. Healthy people know that when they hurt others in any way, they literally hurt themselves. They also know if any human is diminished they are diminished as well.

IndianSummer

angelica wrote:

First off, I loved your story, IndianSummer, and it's implications.

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No wonder we feel empty and continuously seek and hunger for anything to fill the void.

thanks.

i think it wont be a bad idea to replace the chasing and taking advantage of "our rights", with a sense of doing "our duties".

one reason why people in developed countries dont seem to have their feet on the ground and/or their minds steady is that they have little to live for and few causes - their countries are all developed and rich and they themselves are better off than their asian or east european countreparts. people of developping countries have their feet on the ground on the other hand, cos both their coiuntries could do with another engineer instead of another guitarist and also becomming another engineer instead of another guitarist would mean the developing country guy can earn better.


another story if you care, not first hand though.

my uncle used to visit a german research institute often and still does. once in about 1980ish, when he was there, one day on some public park there were 2 yuppie kind of kids, a teen boy and a girl, busy flirting. at that point an old german lady asked them to get busy with more important things in their lives and try and become worthwhile citizens. then told my uncle how her generation of women had rebuilt germany from scratch single handedly (with most german men folk dead in the war) and how the present generation
cared little for such causes and were more busy "living their lives to the fullest" and enjoying the fruits of the previous generation's labours.

CenterCity

IndianSummer wrote:

about 2 months ago, i was travelling in a place called Darjeeling in india.

I was in a car, with 3 other americans, all girls, one rock climber and 2 twin sisters. and also an irish guy.

along the way to Pelling, we saw lots of huts and tea gardens and saw people and working there or doing household stuff (drying out their clothes etc). those people live a hand to mouth existance or only slightly better - but the kids wore huge smiles, waved at us and loked so cheerful. the rock climber commented to the twins - "their kids are so much happier than our kids".

oh my gosh: what were you guys up to?
i've never been with friends.....to india....its always been with family and visiting family. Hearing stories from my parents and their relatives is always fun though.

and so i'm jealous that you know you got to see India with friends that you share interests with that you developed from or that they developed from scratch.

IndianSummer

CenterCity wrote:

oh my gosh: what were you guys up to?
i've never been with friends.....to india....its always been with family and visiting family.

i was traveling. and so were they. i didnt know them. the long distance taxi-car was the sort where they take some 6 people (from A to , who may or may not know each other, for a fixed price.

oh and i am indian.

CenterCity

IndianSummer wrote:

i was traveling. and so were they. i didnt know them. the long distance taxi-car was the sort where they take some 6 people (from A to , who may or may not know each other, for a fixed price.

oh and i am indian.

oh cool.....that kinda reminds me of taking the shuttle from the airport, and being put in this situation that is the car ride, with totally random people. lol
of course, you know that you all share the same ride so. lol....do you know what i mean?

IndianSummer

CenterCity wrote:

of course, you know that you all share the same ride so. lol....do you know what i mean?

no i dont.

CenterCity

IndianSummer wrote:

no i dont.

just one of those situations.....where you meet cool people.

CenterCity

IndianSummer wrote:

i was traveling. and so were they. i didnt know them. the long distance taxi-car was the sort where they take some 6 people (from A to , who may or may not know each other, for a fixed price.

oh and i am indian.

yeah that is my heritage too.

IndianSummer

bump bump bump

CenterCity

IndianSummer wrote:

bump bump bump

you know what is it me or.....well especially during the opening of the world wide sucide video.....does it sound like a "sunk".....(the sea shell that's blown to initiate and end aarti/puja)....even till the crescendo.....it sounds really cool.

IndianSummer

CenterCity wrote:

you know what is it me or.....well especially during the opening of the world wide sucide video.....does it sound like a "sunk".....(the sea shell that's blown to initiate and end aarti/puja)....even till the crescendo.....it sounds really cool.

its pronounced "shunkh" and literally means "conch".

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f67/GITadmin/varanasi/ARATI7.jpg

CenterCity

IndianSummer wrote:

its pronounced "shunkh" and literally means "conch".

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f67/GITadmin/varanasi/ARATI7.jpg

right. yeah that must be from the sanksrit. ......i love that sound.....especially when it cresendos.

know1

I don't agree with the original quote. It's just a way for people to justify their shortcomings without taking responsibility or changing their actions. There is no way the number is at 95%.

angelica

know1 wrote:

I don't agree with the original quote. It's just a way for people to justify their shortcomings without taking responsibility or changing their actions. There is no way the number is at 95%.

Because we all know you study psychology, know1.

I think you might want to look into the concept called : denial.

Of course we are justifying shortcomings. It's what explanation is about. Because we can explain the why's does doesn't mean we are excused from accountability for our shortcomings by any stretch of the imagination! I see it as quite the contrary: By understanding problems, we are empowered to solve them. With blame, blindness and lack of understanding, we keep ourselves/others bound up in the denial and shame that keeps us/them from facing the problem to begin with. Shame is the root of our mass problem with dysfunction at this time. People will do anything to avoid the deep source of shame within and therefore they perpetuate the patterns. Therefore, we keep being so messed up. Lighten up on the blame unless you want to be part of the problem. At the same time, I believe in fully holding people to account for what they do.

know1

angelica wrote:

Because we all know you study psychology, know1.

I think you might want to look into the concept called : denial.

Of course we are justifying shortcomings. It's what explanation is about. Because we can explain the why's does doesn't mean we are excused from accountability for our shortcomings by any stretch of the imagination! I see it as quite the contrary: By understanding problems, we are empowered to solve them. With blame, blindness and lack of understanding, we keep ourselves/others bound up in the denial and shame that keeps us/them from facing the problem to begin with. Shame is the root of our mass problem with dysfunction at this time. People will do anything to avoid the deep source of shame within and therefore they perpetuate the patterns. Therefore, we keep being so messed up. Lighten up on the blame unless you want to be part of the problem. At the same time, I believe in fully holding people to account for what they do.

Actually, Psychology is one of my favorite subjects.

I maintain that you're are placing too much relevance on searching for external sources to answer why someone is messed up. You give that far too much credibility. Ultimately, I believe people are more responsible for their own actions than "society" or their parents are.