europe - grim prospect ahead?

danmac

IndianSummer wrote:

not a zero iq tho. did u pass college?

i dont keep going round in circles about unprovable things like god , that to in a thread about demographic and economic problems.

No, it was thread about loss of faith and how AMerica does nt ned to follw this pseudo "European way".

its been fun, but I dont discuss or argue points with a spinless back tracker who cannot stick to the point of her original post. Enjoy the summer.

danmac

IndianSummer wrote:

not a zero iq tho. did u pass college?

i dont keep going round in circles about unprovable things like god , that to in a thread about demographic and economic problems.

No, it was a thread about loss of faith and how America doesnt need to follow this pseudo, non religious decline, the "European way".

its been fun, but I dont discuss or argue points with a spinless back tracker who cannot stick to the point of her original post. Enjoy the summer.

danmac

For those that care, heres little miss spinless's original post.

Is God dead in Europe?
By James P. Gannon
Two snapshots from a recent tourist trip to Europe: We are in Prague, the lovely and lively capital of the Czech Republic, where the bars and cafes are full, the glitzy crystal and art shops are busy, and the dozens of historic cathedrals and churches are largely empty — except for gawking tourists snapping photos. In The Prague Post, an English-language weekly newspaper, a front-page article reports, in titillating detail, how the city has become Europe's new capital for pornographic filmmaking, while an op-ed examines why only 19% of the people in this once-religious country believe that God exists.
Change the scene to Rome. We are at the Vatican, swimming in a sea of 150,000 people waiting in St. Peter's Square for Pope Benedict XVI to appear at a special celebration for Catholic children who have made their first communion in the past year. Rock bands and kids' choirs entertain the faithful until a roar sweeps through the crowd at the first sighting of the "Popemobile," carrying the waving, white-robed Benedict down barricaded lanes through the throng. The crowd goes wild.

FOCUS ON FAITH
Faith. Religion. Spirituality. Increasingly those words are part of public life — a controversial part. Every Monday, writers of varying perspectives seek to illuminate the issues. For a look at all stories, click here






For an American Catholic visitor, Europe is a puzzling and sometimes discouraging place these days. Is God dead here? Many signs suggest that Europeans think so.

Decline in attendance

"Common wisdom has it that alcoholics outnumber practicing Christians and that more Czechs believe in UFOs than believe in God — and common wisdom may be correct," wrote Nate and Leah Seppanen Anderson in a Prague Post commentary; he's a freelance writer, and she's a political science professor at Wheaton College in Illinois and a specialist in Czech politics and society. Surveys show a sharp decline in church attendance and religious practice in most European countries. A series of Eurobarometer surveys since 1970 in five key countries (France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany and Italy) shows that regular church attendance fell from about 40% of the population to about half that figure. Declines were sharpest in predominantly Catholic nations.

Even so, how do we account for the extraordinary outpouring of grief at Pope John Paul II's death in April and the enthusiasm that his successor seems to evoke? Are these mere public spectacles, signifying nothing about Europe's drift from its religious roots, or are they signs of yearning for something more than peace, prosperity and la dolce vita?

As only an occasional visitor to Europe, I claim no expertise in these matters. But some who do see the emergence of a post-Christian era in Europe that has profound consequences for the continent and perhaps is an ominous portend for the United States. Where Europe has gone, America could be going — and that is a prospect that is frightening Christians and sharpening the religious divide in this country.

Western Europe, the cradle of modern Christianity, has become a "post-Christian society" in which the ruling class and cultural leaders are anti-religious or "Christophobic," writes George Weigel, a Catholic columnist and U.S. biographer of Pope John Paul II. In his new book, The Cube and the Cathedral: Europe, America, and Politics Without God, he argues that religious differences help explain the policy tensions between Europe and the United States.

"It would be too simple to say that the reason Americans and Europeans see the world so differently is that the former go to church on Sundays and the latter don't," Weigel writes. "But it would also be a grave mistake to think that the dramatic differences in religious belief and practice in the United States and Europe don't have something important to do with those different perceptions of the world — and the different policies to which those perceptions eventually lead."

A fierce controversy over any mention of Europe's Christian heritage erupted in 2004 when officials were drafting a constitution for the European Union, Weigel notes.

Any mention of the continent's religious past or contributions of Christian culture — in a preface citing the sources of Europe's distinct civilization — would be exclusionary and offensive to non-Christians, many argued. Former French president Valery Giscard d'Estaing, who presided over the process, summed up the dominant view: "Europeans live in a purely secular political system, where religion does not play an important role."

'Demographic suicide'

Among the consequences of Europe's abandonment of its religious roots and the moral code that derives therefrom is a plunge in its birth rates to below the replacement level. Abortion, birth control, acceptance of gay marriage and casual sex are driving the trend. Europe is "committing demographic suicide, systematically depopulating itself," according to Weigel.

United Nations population statistics back him up.

Not a single Western European country has a fertility rate sufficient to replace the current population, which demographers say requires 2.1 children per family. Germany, Russia, Spain, Poland and Italy all have rates of about 1.3 children, according to the U.N. The Czech Republic's is less than 1.2, and even Roman Catholic Ireland is at 1.9 children. (The U.S. rate, which has remained stable, is slightly more than 2 children per woman.)

Fifteen countries, "mostly located in Southern and Eastern Europe, have reached levels of fertility unprecedented in human history," according to the U.N.'s World Population Prospects 2004 revision.

As children grow scarce and longevity increases in Europe, the continent is becoming one vast Leisure World. By 2050, the U.N. projects, more than 40% of the people in Italy will be 60 or older. By mid-century, populations in 25 European nations will be lower than they are now; Russia will lose 31 million people, Italy 7.2 million, Poland 6.6 million and Germany 3.9 million. So Europe is abandoning religion, growing older, shrinking and slowly killing itself. These are signs of a society in eclipse — the Roman Empire writ large. Is this any model for America?

In his 2001 book, The Death of the West, conservative commentator Patrick Buchanan argues that a European-style "de-Christianization of America" is the goal of many liberals — and they are succeeding.

Court decisions that have banned school-sponsored prayer, removed many Nativity scenes from public squares, and legalized gay marriage are part of that pattern, as is the legal effort to erase "In God We Trust" from U.S. currency and "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance.

Europe is showing us where this path leads. It is not the right path for America.

James P. Gannon is a retired journalist and author ofA Life in Print: Selections from the Work of a Reporter, Columnist and Editor.

my2hands

know1 wrote:

As I said before, you have a closed mind.



Open your mind and you may see that as well.

you dont even know him

my2hands

danmac wrote:

You have zero backbone.

you dont even know him or her?

danmac

my2hands wrote:

you dont even know him

Hi! Im Danny, pleased to meet you all. Now everyone knows me.
Doesnt make know1nothings posts any more relevant, but thanks for the crutch. I feel like im banging my head against a wall today. Feel like Pearl Jam is a band i should not love because they have people like this who follow them. Fascism and the Inquisition died a long time ago, or so i thought.

know1

my2hands wrote:

you dont even know him

How do you know?

Collin

I'd make a thread about God vs. Science, but I'd feel it would be pages and pages going 'round circles... saying the same things over and over again... if anyone else wants to make one, I would join in of course (and prove I'm right;))

my2hands

cincybearcat wrote:

You don't discuss religion, you only use it as a means to belittle people that do not believe the same as you.

again, i do not feel that i am belittleing anyone...i have admitted that i have faults and weakness, i just see a faith in a higher power as a human weakness... that is not "belittling"

i did not say they were inferior, or lesser than me, or scum? i just said that it was a weakness, not that they were weak...there is a difference IMO

danmac

my2hands wrote:

you dont even know him or her?

I know what she posted, and then she backtracked when realising she was wrong and could not back up the original intention of the post.
Thats a good indication of being spineless.

IndianSummer

danmac wrote:

No, it was a thread about loss of faith and how America doesnt need to follow this pseudo, non religious decline, the "European way".

its been fun, but I dont discuss or argue points with a spinless back tracker who cannot stick to the point of her original post. Enjoy the summer.

damn !!!

you show the tenacity of a british bulldog in ruining this thread .

its a thread about the demographic problems europe is goign to face. try to get that into your fool head.

IndianSummer

danmac wrote:

I know what she posted, and then she backtracked when realising she was wrong and could not back up the original intention of the post.

loking at the thread title what the fuck do u think was the original intention of the post???

had it been about religion, it'd have been titled down the lines of "europe - godless prospects ahead". dig?

danmac wrote:

Thats a good indication of being spineless.

and you are a fine example of the recently lobotomised brainless sort.

soulsinging

danmac wrote:

Hi! Im Danny, pleased to meet you all. Now everyone knows me.
Doesnt make know1nothings posts any more relevant, but thanks for the crutch. I feel like im banging my head against a wall today. Feel like Pearl Jam is a band i should not love because they have people like this who follow them. Fascism and the Inquisition died a long time ago, or so i thought.

hahaha, you're quite a bit of fun to read. i must ask... how old are you? im guessing junior high... high school at best. threatening to "leave" pearl jam cos the other fans wont see your way... that's pretty hilarious. what are you... 7 years old? dont like the way the other kids are playing the game so you'll take your toys and go home?

you are truly off your rocker my friend. you can hang with pat robertson and jerry jenkins in the "lost touch with reality" club any day!

my2hands

have i told you that i love you all

my2hands

danmac wrote:

Thats a good indication of being spineless.

not needed

IndianSummer

so now that we have got rid of the (religious) pain in our collective asses, can we get th4e thread back on track??

what are the demographic and economic challenges europe is likely/is sure to face and how are they going to tackle it?

BrotherLoveBone

IndianSummer wrote:

so now that we have got rid of the (religious) pain in our collective asses, can we get th4e thread back on track??

what are the demographic and economic challenges europe is likely/is sure to face and how are they going to tackle it?

Well firstly they have to decide what European Union really means to people.

Over here for example they always show figures how much we pay to EU and how much we get aid back in cold cash and they forget to mention how much we gain from the lower interest rates and the integrated bigger market compared if we still had our own weak currency and had to pay all the tariffs that countries outside EU have to pay to to trade with EU. So even still it's how much WE pay THEM and what do we get back in pure money and rarely it's mentioned how much the stability of being a part of a bigger economy actually brings.

So the main question is that will people of Europe start to treat the Europe as their home or do they still stick to the old geographical borders and only look at EU's value as the benefits it brings to their own country. That's why i think the EU is going to face a long ice age since all the politicians are judged on how they look after their own countries benefits and not what is good for whole Europe.

I'm pro EU but also a realist and i'm pretty sure the integration progress will come to a halt until people realize that teaming up can be a good thing and that everyone needs to compromise to get the Union to work...at this moment it's still how many euros we pay to Brussels and how many they give us back-type of bs.

cincybearcat

my2hands wrote:

again, i do not feel that i am belittleing anyone...i have admitted that i have faults and weakness, i just see a faith in a higher power as a human weakness... that is not "belittling"

i did not say they were inferior, or lesser than me, or scum? i just said that it was a weakness, not that they were weak...there is a difference IMO

Perhaps that is your intent. But I don't think it is the way you come across.

It comes across as an arrogant...I know the truth sort of way and religion is most certainly THE #1 topic that nobody can be sure of the truth.

rebelpleb

Maybe I can get this thread back on track ...

Personally, I don't see a decline in population as a problem nor a challenge. I see it as a step in the right direction.

Economics is a belief system based upon false assuptions about how markets work. That is why economic predictions are so variable and so wrong. Societies based upon these erroneous economic principles are bound to erupt into social chaos and bound to fail. We see signs of this all over the place: war, corporate collapse, genocide, extreme weather, re-emergence of infectious diseases, cancer, species extinction, ecological degredation. Yes, all of these effects are caused by our adherence to a spurious way of living.

Who is it that created all the vital problems on the globe? Dinosaurs? Giraffes? Tigers? Elephants? Wooly Mammoth?

I think the fewer people the better. I think all countries should be working on lowering their populations. And I think economics be dammed.

As an old Native American prophesy states:

"When the last fish has been caught and the last tree has been cut down...Only then will man realize that he cannot eat money."

Carlos D

Europe is so messed up,people think that just because a country has a great economy that everything is perfect.Ireland has a wonderful economy now,all thanks to the EU but since we've got that good economy our society has been reduced to a pathetic level.Suicides,alcoholism,divorce and drug use are everywhere and it's all because our government would rather concentrate on our economy then pur people.