I think the truly strong admit to their weaknesses but don't point out others.
As I tell my son that he can't make himself bigger by making someone else smaller. He can only make him seem bigger by making someone else bigger. But in the end he can only be who he is and that it's up to hm if he lives up to that potential. And we allhave the potential to be more amazing than we imagine.
my intent was not to point at one individual and judge them, point out individaul weakness, or put them down...
i completely agree with you, and i have spent most of my life sticking up for the little guy
so should i not share my opinions with grown adults because their feelings may get hurt? simply because i do not agree with them?
God and religion are a security blanket, IMO, plain and simple... that does not mean you are inferior or that i am better or smarter than you
i can admit that i am flawed, imperfect, and usually wrong... i just wish some others would try and join me
No - it's not. And you can't unconditionally prove that it is. Therefore, we're all in the same boat with regard to faith.
Again, the bible is a theory that doesn't hold under the information and conditions we know today... As I said, you can boil water and you know exactly when it will boil. 1+1=3 etc.
You can't do that with anything from the bible... that is why science is more right than the bible.
No - it's not. And you can't unconditionally prove that it is. Therefore, we're all in the same boat with regard to faith.
Err, no.
The day Im in the same boat as you is the day I take a swim.
Do you deny the world is round?
Do you deny the earth is not the centre of the cosmos, as was preofessed until the middle ages.
Do you believe that light and colour comes from god, and not the sun?
If so, then you are 600 years late.
Heres a quick list of what science has done, for you, in a language you wil understand.
Your car, your heating, your electricity, your light, your internet, your aeroplanes, your microwave ovens, your pen, your paper, most of your food now, on and on and on. If something has been invented, its because of science, because of people applying scientific principles to a problem and creating a solution, based on a theory, a hypothesis, that they believe will lead them to a solution to that problem.
You really are lost. Taken your meds today?
A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
i can admit that i am flawed, imperfect, and usually wrong... i just wish some others would try and join me
i can and have. in fact, i used to think exactly as you profess about religion right now. i realized and admitted that i was very wrong about that mindset.
if we want to talk about europe's troubles... i fail to see how this dip in population can be said to be the fault of a lack of religion. as others have pointed out, the problem is simply that 1) single incomes aren't what they used to be and it's tough to raise a with only one parent working one job and 2) as women enter the workforce more and in higher positions of power and spend so much time pursuing an education, they aren't as willing to sacrifice their careers to pump out babies.
as i said previously, i fail to see how this is a problem. as has been stated, outsource jobs or import workers. so the ethnic makeup of europe might change... who really cares?
this is about europe's problems or unemployment, lack of manpower, emmigration, demographic suicide, pension bomb etc.
So why did you post a report written by a right wing neo-christian?
Why did you explicitly link God to european social problems?
Because you believed in what the report said. yOu think that lack of faith is the source of the worlds ills, and wil be AMericas if you dont believe in the power of your God.
Sorry to call you out on this, but maybe youll learn a valuable lesson and restructure your posts to suit your opinions, not the other way around when called on it.
A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
The day Im in the same boat as you is the day I take a swim.
Do you deny the world is round?
Do you deny the earth is not the centre of the cosmos, as was preofessed until the middle ages.
Do you believe that light and colour comes from god, and not the sun?
If so, then you are 600 years late.
Heres a quick list of what science has done, for you, in a language you wil understand.
Your car, your heating, your electricity, your light, your internet, your aeroplanes, your microwave ovens, your pen, your paper, most of your food now, on and on and on. If something has been invented, its because of science, because of people applying scientific principles to a problem and creating a solution, based on a theory, a hypothesis, that they believe will lead them to a solution to that problem.
You really are lost. Taken your meds today?
As I said before, you have a closed mind.
Humans may call the earth round, but it's a concept that they invented themselves.
I believe that color and light come from the sun as directed by God.
I do not deny that science has resulted in many helpful tools. Surely you can see the difference between INVENTION and PROVEN. I just deny that it has proven anything.
Open your mind and you may see that as well.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I do not deny that science has resulted in many helpful tools. Surely you can see the difference between INVENTION and PROVEN. I just deny that it has proven anything.
You can test science. take the water boiling example, again, you can do it a million times... guess what, water boils at 100 degrees celsius.
You can test the bible but you will never find an answer, that why it's faith.
You can test science. take the water boiling example, again, you can do it a million times... guess what, water boils at 100 degrees celsius.
You can test the bible but you will never find an answer, that why it's faith.
I'm not denying that you can test science. I'm denying that you can PROVE it.
Ever think about how people not only invented the concept of boiling but also the temperature measurement by which it is gauged? Any coincidence there?
Furthermore, as I've said before, just because it boils at that temperature today is no guarantee that it will boil there tomorrow. Therefore, it has not been unconditionally proven.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I'm not denying that you can test science. I'm denying that you can PROVE it.
Ever think about how people not only invented the concept of boiling but also the temperature measurement by which it is gauged? Any coincidence there?
Furthermore, as I've said before, just because it boils at that temperature today is no guarantee that it will boil there tomorrow. Therefore, it has not been unconditionally proven.
The temperature measurement by which it is gauged isn't relevant.
It has, indeed, not been unconditionally proven. But that's not really my point. My point is, I can test it today and you will agree, water boils at 100 degrees celsius. You can test something from the bible today... and nothing, you'll find nothing.
So, I'd say the bible is less acurate than science, because science can prove something (although not unconditionally). The bible can't prove anything.
Humans may call the earth round, but it's a concept that they invented themselves.
I believe that color and light come from the sun as directed by God.
I do not deny that science has resulted in many helpful tools. Surely you can see the difference between INVENTION and PROVEN. I just deny that it has proven anything.
Open your mind and you may see that as well.
A concept that the earth is round? You really are in a world of hurt my friend.
For further tests on your sanity, answer me these simple questions.
Do you think the earth was created in 6 days, 6000 years ago, as specified in your holy book?
Do you think the earth is the centre of the cosmos, as your good book says, as Rome taught for 1600 years?
Do you think that humans are the spawn of Adam and Eve, as your book says?
Did the magician known as jesus turn water into wine, feed the 5000, walk on water? If so, can you prove any of the above?
A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
So why did you post a report written by a right wing neo-christian?
Why did you explicitly link God to european social problems?
Because you believed in what the report said. yOu think that lack of faith is the source of the worlds ills, and wil be AMericas if you dont believe in the power of your God.
Sorry to call you out on this, but maybe youll learn a valuable lesson and restructure your posts to suit your opinions, not the other way around when called on it.
god damn it i didnt write andf couldnt give a rats ass if europes takes to the bible or to porn.
i wanted to know about their problems and how they could tackle them. i have a good mind to edit the religious bits of the original post and leave you guys hanging in the air.
I have faced it, A life wasted...
Take my hand, my child of love
Come step inside my tears
Swim the magic ocean,
I've been crying all these years
god damn it i didnt write andf couldnt give a rats ass if europes takes to the bible or to porn.
i wanted to know about their problems and how they could tackle them. i have a good mind to edit the religious bits of the original post and leave you guys hanging in the air.
I think Europe's big problem isn't the change but their reluctance to adapt to the change. Fighting change is futile.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
i have never claimed to be "better" than anyone... and i certainly never said i "hated" any bible beaters?... and i have never claimed to be "smarter" than anyone or anything so please stop putting words in my mouth. Thank You
i said that a belief in a "higher being" or "God" is a weakness... i also admitted to have many weaknesses myself... i am capable of self-reflection
this is why religion is a subject i do not discuss, because people over-react
You don't discuss religion, you only use it as a means to belittle people that do not believe the same as you.
Personally, the only people in the whole religion debate that I really can;t stand are the in-your-face religious people and the in-your-face atheists.
now you can continue debating about god and bible and evolution in a thread that wanted to discuss how europe is going to tackle the problem of too much humping and too less reproducing. why am i chuckling?
I have faced it, A life wasted...
Take my hand, my child of love
Come step inside my tears
Swim the magic ocean,
I've been crying all these years
now you can continue debating about god and bible and evolution in a thread that wanted to discuss how europe is going to tackle the problem of too much humping and too less reproducing. why am i chuckling?
You are chuckling because you ran away, took the cowards way out.
You made a staement by posting that report, you retract once caught out. You believe in nothing, and cannot defend anything you say. YOu have lost all credibility.
And you do care about faith and god, or you wouldnt have posted it, would not have been surfing the right wing bible web site you found the report on.
You have zero backbone.
A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
You are chuckling because you ran away, took the cowards way out.
You made a staement by posting that report, you retract once caught out. You believe in nothing, and cannot defend anything you say. YOu have lost all credibility.
And you do care about faith and god, or you wouldnt have posted it, would not have been surfing the right wing bible web site you found the report on.
You have zero backbone.
not a zero iq tho. did u pass college?
i dont keep going round in circles about unprovable things like god , that to in a thread about demographic and economic problems.
I have faced it, A life wasted...
Take my hand, my child of love
Come step inside my tears
Swim the magic ocean,
I've been crying all these years
i dont keep going round in circles about unprovable things like god , that to in a thread about demographic and economic problems.
No, it was thread about loss of faith and how AMerica does nt ned to follw this pseudo "European way".
its been fun, but I dont discuss or argue points with a spinless back tracker who cannot stick to the point of her original post. Enjoy the summer.
A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
i dont keep going round in circles about unprovable things like god , that to in a thread about demographic and economic problems.
No, it was a thread about loss of faith and how America doesnt need to follow this pseudo, non religious decline, the "European way".
its been fun, but I dont discuss or argue points with a spinless back tracker who cannot stick to the point of her original post. Enjoy the summer.
A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
For those that care, heres little miss spinless's original post.
Is God dead in Europe?
By James P. Gannon
Two snapshots from a recent tourist trip to Europe: We are in Prague, the lovely and lively capital of the Czech Republic, where the bars and cafes are full, the glitzy crystal and art shops are busy, and the dozens of historic cathedrals and churches are largely empty — except for gawking tourists snapping photos. In The Prague Post, an English-language weekly newspaper, a front-page article reports, in titillating detail, how the city has become Europe's new capital for pornographic filmmaking, while an op-ed examines why only 19% of the people in this once-religious country believe that God exists.
Change the scene to Rome. We are at the Vatican, swimming in a sea of 150,000 people waiting in St. Peter's Square for Pope Benedict XVI to appear at a special celebration for Catholic children who have made their first communion in the past year. Rock bands and kids' choirs entertain the faithful until a roar sweeps through the crowd at the first sighting of the "Popemobile," carrying the waving, white-robed Benedict down barricaded lanes through the throng. The crowd goes wild.
FOCUS ON FAITH
Faith. Religion. Spirituality. Increasingly those words are part of public life — a controversial part. Every Monday, writers of varying perspectives seek to illuminate the issues. For a look at all stories, click here
For an American Catholic visitor, Europe is a puzzling and sometimes discouraging place these days. Is God dead here? Many signs suggest that Europeans think so.
Decline in attendance
"Common wisdom has it that alcoholics outnumber practicing Christians and that more Czechs believe in UFOs than believe in God — and common wisdom may be correct," wrote Nate and Leah Seppanen Anderson in a Prague Post commentary; he's a freelance writer, and she's a political science professor at Wheaton College in Illinois and a specialist in Czech politics and society. Surveys show a sharp decline in church attendance and religious practice in most European countries. A series of Eurobarometer surveys since 1970 in five key countries (France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany and Italy) shows that regular church attendance fell from about 40% of the population to about half that figure. Declines were sharpest in predominantly Catholic nations.
Even so, how do we account for the extraordinary outpouring of grief at Pope John Paul II's death in April and the enthusiasm that his successor seems to evoke? Are these mere public spectacles, signifying nothing about Europe's drift from its religious roots, or are they signs of yearning for something more than peace, prosperity and la dolce vita?
As only an occasional visitor to Europe, I claim no expertise in these matters. But some who do see the emergence of a post-Christian era in Europe that has profound consequences for the continent and perhaps is an ominous portend for the United States. Where Europe has gone, America could be going — and that is a prospect that is frightening Christians and sharpening the religious divide in this country.
Western Europe, the cradle of modern Christianity, has become a "post-Christian society" in which the ruling class and cultural leaders are anti-religious or "Christophobic," writes George Weigel, a Catholic columnist and U.S. biographer of Pope John Paul II. In his new book, The Cube and the Cathedral: Europe, America, and Politics Without God, he argues that religious differences help explain the policy tensions between Europe and the United States.
"It would be too simple to say that the reason Americans and Europeans see the world so differently is that the former go to church on Sundays and the latter don't," Weigel writes. "But it would also be a grave mistake to think that the dramatic differences in religious belief and practice in the United States and Europe don't have something important to do with those different perceptions of the world — and the different policies to which those perceptions eventually lead."
A fierce controversy over any mention of Europe's Christian heritage erupted in 2004 when officials were drafting a constitution for the European Union, Weigel notes.
Any mention of the continent's religious past or contributions of Christian culture — in a preface citing the sources of Europe's distinct civilization — would be exclusionary and offensive to non-Christians, many argued. Former French president Valery Giscard d'Estaing, who presided over the process, summed up the dominant view: "Europeans live in a purely secular political system, where religion does not play an important role."
'Demographic suicide'
Among the consequences of Europe's abandonment of its religious roots and the moral code that derives therefrom is a plunge in its birth rates to below the replacement level. Abortion, birth control, acceptance of gay marriage and casual sex are driving the trend. Europe is "committing demographic suicide, systematically depopulating itself," according to Weigel.
United Nations population statistics back him up.
Not a single Western European country has a fertility rate sufficient to replace the current population, which demographers say requires 2.1 children per family. Germany, Russia, Spain, Poland and Italy all have rates of about 1.3 children, according to the U.N. The Czech Republic's is less than 1.2, and even Roman Catholic Ireland is at 1.9 children. (The U.S. rate, which has remained stable, is slightly more than 2 children per woman.)
Fifteen countries, "mostly located in Southern and Eastern Europe, have reached levels of fertility unprecedented in human history," according to the U.N.'s World Population Prospects 2004 revision.
As children grow scarce and longevity increases in Europe, the continent is becoming one vast Leisure World. By 2050, the U.N. projects, more than 40% of the people in Italy will be 60 or older. By mid-century, populations in 25 European nations will be lower than they are now; Russia will lose 31 million people, Italy 7.2 million, Poland 6.6 million and Germany 3.9 million. So Europe is abandoning religion, growing older, shrinking and slowly killing itself. These are signs of a society in eclipse — the Roman Empire writ large. Is this any model for America?
In his 2001 book, The Death of the West, conservative commentator Patrick Buchanan argues that a European-style "de-Christianization of America" is the goal of many liberals — and they are succeeding.
Court decisions that have banned school-sponsored prayer, removed many Nativity scenes from public squares, and legalized gay marriage are part of that pattern, as is the legal effort to erase "In God We Trust" from U.S. currency and "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance.
Europe is showing us where this path leads. It is not the right path for America.
James P. Gannon is a retired journalist and author ofA Life in Print: Selections from the Work of a Reporter, Columnist and Editor.
A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
Hi! Im Danny, pleased to meet you all. Now everyone knows me.
Doesnt make know1nothings posts any more relevant, but thanks for the crutch. I feel like im banging my head against a wall today. Feel like Pearl Jam is a band i should not love because they have people like this who follow them. Fascism and the Inquisition died a long time ago, or so i thought.
A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
I'd make a thread about God vs. Science, but I'd feel it would be pages and pages going 'round circles... saying the same things over and over again... if anyone else wants to make one, I would join in of course (and prove I'm right;))
You don't discuss religion, you only use it as a means to belittle people that do not believe the same as you.
again, i do not feel that i am belittleing anyone...i have admitted that i have faults and weakness, i just see a faith in a higher power as a human weakness... that is not "belittling"
i did not say they were inferior, or lesser than me, or scum? i just said that it was a weakness, not that they were weak...there is a difference IMO
I know what she posted, and then she backtracked when realising she was wrong and could not back up the original intention of the post.
Thats a good indication of being spineless.
A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
Comments
No - it's not. And you can't unconditionally prove that it is. Therefore, we're all in the same boat with regard to faith.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
this is about europe's problems or unemployment, lack of manpower, emmigration, demographic suicide, pension bomb etc.
Take my hand, my child of love
Come step inside my tears
Swim the magic ocean,
I've been crying all these years
my intent was not to point at one individual and judge them, point out individaul weakness, or put them down...
i completely agree with you, and i have spent most of my life sticking up for the little guy
so should i not share my opinions with grown adults because their feelings may get hurt? simply because i do not agree with them?
God and religion are a security blanket, IMO, plain and simple... that does not mean you are inferior or that i am better or smarter than you
i can admit that i am flawed, imperfect, and usually wrong... i just wish some others would try and join me
Again, the bible is a theory that doesn't hold under the information and conditions we know today... As I said, you can boil water and you know exactly when it will boil. 1+1=3 etc.
You can't do that with anything from the bible... that is why science is more right than the bible.
naděje umírá poslední
Err, no.
The day Im in the same boat as you is the day I take a swim.
Do you deny the world is round?
Do you deny the earth is not the centre of the cosmos, as was preofessed until the middle ages.
Do you believe that light and colour comes from god, and not the sun?
If so, then you are 600 years late.
Heres a quick list of what science has done, for you, in a language you wil understand.
Your car, your heating, your electricity, your light, your internet, your aeroplanes, your microwave ovens, your pen, your paper, most of your food now, on and on and on. If something has been invented, its because of science, because of people applying scientific principles to a problem and creating a solution, based on a theory, a hypothesis, that they believe will lead them to a solution to that problem.
You really are lost. Taken your meds today?
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
Viva Zapatista!
leave this one alone.
Take my hand, my child of love
Come step inside my tears
Swim the magic ocean,
I've been crying all these years
i can and have. in fact, i used to think exactly as you profess about religion right now. i realized and admitted that i was very wrong about that mindset.
if we want to talk about europe's troubles... i fail to see how this dip in population can be said to be the fault of a lack of religion. as others have pointed out, the problem is simply that 1) single incomes aren't what they used to be and it's tough to raise a with only one parent working one job and 2) as women enter the workforce more and in higher positions of power and spend so much time pursuing an education, they aren't as willing to sacrifice their careers to pump out babies.
as i said previously, i fail to see how this is a problem. as has been stated, outsource jobs or import workers. so the ethnic makeup of europe might change... who really cares?
So why did you post a report written by a right wing neo-christian?
Why did you explicitly link God to european social problems?
Because you believed in what the report said. yOu think that lack of faith is the source of the worlds ills, and wil be AMericas if you dont believe in the power of your God.
Sorry to call you out on this, but maybe youll learn a valuable lesson and restructure your posts to suit your opinions, not the other way around when called on it.
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
Viva Zapatista!
As I said before, you have a closed mind.
Humans may call the earth round, but it's a concept that they invented themselves.
I believe that color and light come from the sun as directed by God.
I do not deny that science has resulted in many helpful tools. Surely you can see the difference between INVENTION and PROVEN. I just deny that it has proven anything.
Open your mind and you may see that as well.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
You can test science. take the water boiling example, again, you can do it a million times... guess what, water boils at 100 degrees celsius.
You can test the bible but you will never find an answer, that why it's faith.
naděje umírá poslední
I'm not denying that you can test science. I'm denying that you can PROVE it.
Ever think about how people not only invented the concept of boiling but also the temperature measurement by which it is gauged? Any coincidence there?
Furthermore, as I've said before, just because it boils at that temperature today is no guarantee that it will boil there tomorrow. Therefore, it has not been unconditionally proven.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
The temperature measurement by which it is gauged isn't relevant.
It has, indeed, not been unconditionally proven. But that's not really my point. My point is, I can test it today and you will agree, water boils at 100 degrees celsius. You can test something from the bible today... and nothing, you'll find nothing.
So, I'd say the bible is less acurate than science, because science can prove something (although not unconditionally). The bible can't prove anything.
naděje umírá poslední
A concept that the earth is round? You really are in a world of hurt my friend.
For further tests on your sanity, answer me these simple questions.
Do you think the earth was created in 6 days, 6000 years ago, as specified in your holy book?
Do you think the earth is the centre of the cosmos, as your good book says, as Rome taught for 1600 years?
Do you think that humans are the spawn of Adam and Eve, as your book says?
Did the magician known as jesus turn water into wine, feed the 5000, walk on water? If so, can you prove any of the above?
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
Viva Zapatista!
Methinks that statement is too absolute to be backed up...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
god damn it i didnt write andf couldnt give a rats ass if europes takes to the bible or to porn.
i wanted to know about their problems and how they could tackle them. i have a good mind to edit the religious bits of the original post and leave you guys hanging in the air.
Take my hand, my child of love
Come step inside my tears
Swim the magic ocean,
I've been crying all these years
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
You don't discuss religion, you only use it as a means to belittle people that do not believe the same as you.
Personally, the only people in the whole religion debate that I really can;t stand are the in-your-face religious people and the in-your-face atheists.
now you can continue debating about god and bible and evolution in a thread that wanted to discuss how europe is going to tackle the problem of too much humping and too less reproducing. why am i chuckling?
Take my hand, my child of love
Come step inside my tears
Swim the magic ocean,
I've been crying all these years
You are chuckling because you ran away, took the cowards way out.
You made a staement by posting that report, you retract once caught out. You believe in nothing, and cannot defend anything you say. YOu have lost all credibility.
And you do care about faith and god, or you wouldnt have posted it, would not have been surfing the right wing bible web site you found the report on.
You have zero backbone.
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
Viva Zapatista!
not a zero iq tho. did u pass college?
i dont keep going round in circles about unprovable things like god , that to in a thread about demographic and economic problems.
Take my hand, my child of love
Come step inside my tears
Swim the magic ocean,
I've been crying all these years
No, it was thread about loss of faith and how AMerica does nt ned to follw this pseudo "European way".
its been fun, but I dont discuss or argue points with a spinless back tracker who cannot stick to the point of her original post. Enjoy the summer.
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
Viva Zapatista!
No, it was a thread about loss of faith and how America doesnt need to follow this pseudo, non religious decline, the "European way".
its been fun, but I dont discuss or argue points with a spinless back tracker who cannot stick to the point of her original post. Enjoy the summer.
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
Viva Zapatista!
Is God dead in Europe?
By James P. Gannon
Two snapshots from a recent tourist trip to Europe: We are in Prague, the lovely and lively capital of the Czech Republic, where the bars and cafes are full, the glitzy crystal and art shops are busy, and the dozens of historic cathedrals and churches are largely empty — except for gawking tourists snapping photos. In The Prague Post, an English-language weekly newspaper, a front-page article reports, in titillating detail, how the city has become Europe's new capital for pornographic filmmaking, while an op-ed examines why only 19% of the people in this once-religious country believe that God exists.
Change the scene to Rome. We are at the Vatican, swimming in a sea of 150,000 people waiting in St. Peter's Square for Pope Benedict XVI to appear at a special celebration for Catholic children who have made their first communion in the past year. Rock bands and kids' choirs entertain the faithful until a roar sweeps through the crowd at the first sighting of the "Popemobile," carrying the waving, white-robed Benedict down barricaded lanes through the throng. The crowd goes wild.
FOCUS ON FAITH
Faith. Religion. Spirituality. Increasingly those words are part of public life — a controversial part. Every Monday, writers of varying perspectives seek to illuminate the issues. For a look at all stories, click here
For an American Catholic visitor, Europe is a puzzling and sometimes discouraging place these days. Is God dead here? Many signs suggest that Europeans think so.
Decline in attendance
"Common wisdom has it that alcoholics outnumber practicing Christians and that more Czechs believe in UFOs than believe in God — and common wisdom may be correct," wrote Nate and Leah Seppanen Anderson in a Prague Post commentary; he's a freelance writer, and she's a political science professor at Wheaton College in Illinois and a specialist in Czech politics and society. Surveys show a sharp decline in church attendance and religious practice in most European countries. A series of Eurobarometer surveys since 1970 in five key countries (France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany and Italy) shows that regular church attendance fell from about 40% of the population to about half that figure. Declines were sharpest in predominantly Catholic nations.
Even so, how do we account for the extraordinary outpouring of grief at Pope John Paul II's death in April and the enthusiasm that his successor seems to evoke? Are these mere public spectacles, signifying nothing about Europe's drift from its religious roots, or are they signs of yearning for something more than peace, prosperity and la dolce vita?
As only an occasional visitor to Europe, I claim no expertise in these matters. But some who do see the emergence of a post-Christian era in Europe that has profound consequences for the continent and perhaps is an ominous portend for the United States. Where Europe has gone, America could be going — and that is a prospect that is frightening Christians and sharpening the religious divide in this country.
Western Europe, the cradle of modern Christianity, has become a "post-Christian society" in which the ruling class and cultural leaders are anti-religious or "Christophobic," writes George Weigel, a Catholic columnist and U.S. biographer of Pope John Paul II. In his new book, The Cube and the Cathedral: Europe, America, and Politics Without God, he argues that religious differences help explain the policy tensions between Europe and the United States.
"It would be too simple to say that the reason Americans and Europeans see the world so differently is that the former go to church on Sundays and the latter don't," Weigel writes. "But it would also be a grave mistake to think that the dramatic differences in religious belief and practice in the United States and Europe don't have something important to do with those different perceptions of the world — and the different policies to which those perceptions eventually lead."
A fierce controversy over any mention of Europe's Christian heritage erupted in 2004 when officials were drafting a constitution for the European Union, Weigel notes.
Any mention of the continent's religious past or contributions of Christian culture — in a preface citing the sources of Europe's distinct civilization — would be exclusionary and offensive to non-Christians, many argued. Former French president Valery Giscard d'Estaing, who presided over the process, summed up the dominant view: "Europeans live in a purely secular political system, where religion does not play an important role."
'Demographic suicide'
Among the consequences of Europe's abandonment of its religious roots and the moral code that derives therefrom is a plunge in its birth rates to below the replacement level. Abortion, birth control, acceptance of gay marriage and casual sex are driving the trend. Europe is "committing demographic suicide, systematically depopulating itself," according to Weigel.
United Nations population statistics back him up.
Not a single Western European country has a fertility rate sufficient to replace the current population, which demographers say requires 2.1 children per family. Germany, Russia, Spain, Poland and Italy all have rates of about 1.3 children, according to the U.N. The Czech Republic's is less than 1.2, and even Roman Catholic Ireland is at 1.9 children. (The U.S. rate, which has remained stable, is slightly more than 2 children per woman.)
Fifteen countries, "mostly located in Southern and Eastern Europe, have reached levels of fertility unprecedented in human history," according to the U.N.'s World Population Prospects 2004 revision.
As children grow scarce and longevity increases in Europe, the continent is becoming one vast Leisure World. By 2050, the U.N. projects, more than 40% of the people in Italy will be 60 or older. By mid-century, populations in 25 European nations will be lower than they are now; Russia will lose 31 million people, Italy 7.2 million, Poland 6.6 million and Germany 3.9 million. So Europe is abandoning religion, growing older, shrinking and slowly killing itself. These are signs of a society in eclipse — the Roman Empire writ large. Is this any model for America?
In his 2001 book, The Death of the West, conservative commentator Patrick Buchanan argues that a European-style "de-Christianization of America" is the goal of many liberals — and they are succeeding.
Court decisions that have banned school-sponsored prayer, removed many Nativity scenes from public squares, and legalized gay marriage are part of that pattern, as is the legal effort to erase "In God We Trust" from U.S. currency and "under God" from the Pledge of Allegiance.
Europe is showing us where this path leads. It is not the right path for America.
James P. Gannon is a retired journalist and author ofA Life in Print: Selections from the Work of a Reporter, Columnist and Editor.
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
Viva Zapatista!
you dont even know him
you dont even know him or her?
Hi! Im Danny, pleased to meet you all. Now everyone knows me.
Doesnt make know1nothings posts any more relevant, but thanks for the crutch. I feel like im banging my head against a wall today. Feel like Pearl Jam is a band i should not love because they have people like this who follow them. Fascism and the Inquisition died a long time ago, or so i thought.
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
Viva Zapatista!
How do you know?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
naděje umírá poslední
again, i do not feel that i am belittleing anyone...i have admitted that i have faults and weakness, i just see a faith in a higher power as a human weakness... that is not "belittling"
i did not say they were inferior, or lesser than me, or scum? i just said that it was a weakness, not that they were weak...there is a difference IMO
I know what she posted, and then she backtracked when realising she was wrong and could not back up the original intention of the post.
Thats a good indication of being spineless.
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
Viva Zapatista!