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europe - grim prospect ahead?
IndianSummer
Posts: 854
Is POPULATION dead in Europe?
By James P. Gannon Mon Jan 9, 7:06 AM ET
In The Prague Post, an English-language weekly newspaper, a front-page article reports, in titillating detail, how the city has become Europe's new capital for pornographic filmmaking,
'Demographic suicide'
Among the consequences of Europe's abandonment of its religious roots and the moral code that derives therefrom is a plunge in its birth rates to below the replacement level. Abortion, birth control, acceptance of gay marriage and casual sex are driving the trend. Europe is "committing demographic suicide, systematically depopulating itself," according to Weigel.
United Nations population statistics back him up.
Not a single Western European country has a fertility rate sufficient to replace the current population, which demographers say requires 2.1 children per family. Germany, Russia, Spain, Poland and Italy all have rates of about 1.3 children, according to the U.N. The Czech Republic's is less than 1.2, and even Ireland is at 1.9 children. (The U.S. rate, which has remained stable, is slightly more than 2 children per woman.)
Fifteen countries, "mostly located in Southern and Eastern Europe, have reached levels of fertility unprecedented in human history," according to the U.N.'s World Population Prospects 2004 revision.
As children grow scarce and longevity increases in Europe, the continent is becoming one vast Leisure World. By 2050, the U.N. projects, more than 40% of the people in Italy will be 60 or older. By mid-century, populations in 25 European nations will be lower than they are now; Russia will lose 31 million people, Italy 7.2 million, Poland 6.6 million and Germany 3.9 million. So Europe is abandoning religion, growing older, shrinking and slowly killing itself. These are signs of a society in eclipse - the Roman Empire writ large. Is this any model for America?
James P. Gannon is a retired journalist and author ofA Life in Print: Selections from the Work of a Reporter, Columnist and Editor.
By James P. Gannon Mon Jan 9, 7:06 AM ET
In The Prague Post, an English-language weekly newspaper, a front-page article reports, in titillating detail, how the city has become Europe's new capital for pornographic filmmaking,
'Demographic suicide'
Among the consequences of Europe's abandonment of its religious roots and the moral code that derives therefrom is a plunge in its birth rates to below the replacement level. Abortion, birth control, acceptance of gay marriage and casual sex are driving the trend. Europe is "committing demographic suicide, systematically depopulating itself," according to Weigel.
United Nations population statistics back him up.
Not a single Western European country has a fertility rate sufficient to replace the current population, which demographers say requires 2.1 children per family. Germany, Russia, Spain, Poland and Italy all have rates of about 1.3 children, according to the U.N. The Czech Republic's is less than 1.2, and even Ireland is at 1.9 children. (The U.S. rate, which has remained stable, is slightly more than 2 children per woman.)
Fifteen countries, "mostly located in Southern and Eastern Europe, have reached levels of fertility unprecedented in human history," according to the U.N.'s World Population Prospects 2004 revision.
As children grow scarce and longevity increases in Europe, the continent is becoming one vast Leisure World. By 2050, the U.N. projects, more than 40% of the people in Italy will be 60 or older. By mid-century, populations in 25 European nations will be lower than they are now; Russia will lose 31 million people, Italy 7.2 million, Poland 6.6 million and Germany 3.9 million. So Europe is abandoning religion, growing older, shrinking and slowly killing itself. These are signs of a society in eclipse - the Roman Empire writ large. Is this any model for America?
James P. Gannon is a retired journalist and author ofA Life in Print: Selections from the Work of a Reporter, Columnist and Editor.
I have faced it, A life wasted...
Take my hand, my child of love
Come step inside my tears
Swim the magic ocean,
I've been crying all these years
Take my hand, my child of love
Come step inside my tears
Swim the magic ocean,
I've been crying all these years
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
How can you link falling birth rates and people waking up from the tyranny of religion?
Do you want people running around screwing each other and having ten children and AIDS?
Do you want a ban on condoms and abortion too? Force marriage on people not willing to bind themselves to the patriarchical principles of domination over women, of subjugation and opprssion?
Enlightenment is a good word, and its one you should try. But, being part of the flock, a sheep to Rome and the false god they have shoved down the worlds throat for 2000 years, I doubt you wil have the mental capacity to do so.
Some monkeys.
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
Viva Zapatista!
the more scary part is the one about demographic suicide - which incidentally is of the same rate both in god believing Italy and unbelievinf czech and ussr.
how will europe ride over the "pension bomb". how will they remain competitive when half their population above 50 years old?
Take my hand, my child of love
Come step inside my tears
Swim the magic ocean,
I've been crying all these years
I hate that term as well. Non believer. It intimates that i'm in the wrong, that I dont believe in something that, scientifically, logically, does not exist.
Its a bit like the politically correct way the Disabled lobby have switched the emphasis from the minority being 'disabled,' to the majority being 'abled'. I am not able-bodied, i am bodied. I am the norm. Labels, terms, pigeon holes, all elements of control we really dont need.
I believe in love, hate, good, evil, I believe in man, I believe in the earth, I believe in all that I can see, all that I feel. I dont need a false belief to get me through a life that is hard enough already. I only need me.
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
Viva Zapatista!
im sorry but they are all very valid, reasoned arguments and discussions to have. But you tied religion into it with the original post. Then turned it into a "oh my god America doesnt need that lets run to God." issue. Whats your next excuse, look out, the muslims are coming?
You could have started a thread about the pension problems, the aging population, but you didnt, and lost any credibility of trying to turn this into one by linking religion to those social issues, which arent really issues, just a matter of statistics and percentages. There are too many people in the world as is, who cares where they are? Less europeans, more room for Africans or Chinese or Asians. Humanity is humanity, regardless of the colour of skin or location, and humanity is exploding at an uncontrollable rate. 6.5 billion now, 10 billion by 2050? Id say well be doing just fine, numbers wise.
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
Viva Zapatista!
In other words, you are extremely close minded and only mentally able to grasp the concrete things you have personally experienced.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
The way you control the rest of the world with your president as top police officer, gives us nightmares of what will happen in the years to come.
It is scary that you teach everyone about freedom, right or wrong and religion.
One president is messing around with some girls and is being prosecuted for several years.
The next president is maybe connected with bin laden, maybe started the war in iraq on false terms, he is breaking international laws, and maybe did a lot of other thing wrong, but nothing happens ..
You talk about God, the Bible, Jesus, etc. Is the bible not telling us that we should not kill?
You do a lot of things in Gods name. How do you know god is on your side? Did he/she make some lightning from the heavens over US, or maybe some earthquake that spelled “U.S.A”? Did god whisper “hey George my boy, please kill that geek Sadam Hussain”.
I believe in god, but it can’t be the Amarican god, so I don’t really know what kind of god it is… please enlighten me….
Another fucking bible basher. I'm close minded for not believing in an 1800 year old text that was writeen purely as a means for the Roman Empire to control the midle east, to stave off rebellion, to neuter the Jewish faith, years after the 'fact' happened?
Jesus? He was an actual historical figure, but nothing more than a pagan heretic, a mouthy rebel jew, at best.
I believe in reality, in science, in logic, in humanity, in all the things the majority of this world believe in.
Not magic, not miracles, not dogma, not being told what to do in the guise of 'faith'.
Tell me, Mother Theresa, taking from that post you are a committed christian, so are al other religions wrong too? Islam, Hindu, Jewish, Buddhists, are they al wrong because they dont believe in what you believe?
Therein lies one of the many hypocrisies.
are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider
god-fearing and pious: Aristotle
Viva Zapatista!
Yes that will be a big challenge in the future. One of the reasons why they might want to take Turkey in to the EU is that they could provide Europe with a lot of young work force that is lacking elsewhere. Sadly religion plays a role in this too.
The whole religion part of the article was lame. If people want to have less children and give birth at an older age than before it's their choice. Of course it produces smaller generations than what we had before but banning birth control and abortions definitely isn't the right way to change the situation.
i didnt. i just c/p-ed the report.
religion was tied into the report by whoever conducted the study.
Take my hand, my child of love
Come step inside my tears
Swim the magic ocean,
I've been crying all these years
somehow outsourcing seems a better opotion. allowing turkey will create more problems than it will solve. instead of insourcing manpower from other countries, be it a turkey or a china or an india, a better option would be to outsource the jobs that the native population isnt big enough to handle and keep only as much as the falling population can take. at least it keeps the demographics intact, and from the point of view of the emmigrating country, checks a brain/brawn drain.
Take my hand, my child of love
Come step inside my tears
Swim the magic ocean,
I've been crying all these years
Yes to some extend outsourcing is a good way too but it seems that at the moment they are outsourcing jobs people here would like to keep doing and there's a desperate need for workers in low educated jobs like a nurse or a construction worker etc, which cannot be outsourced.
The situation is fairly new and still developing so that no politician really wants to say out loud what should be done since it's most likely something people don't want to hear.
Apart from the religious and humanitarian issues surrounding Turkey it would at least bring some vitality within the EU.
There really is no easy solution and the apalling state of decision making in EU doesn't suggest any change for the better any time soon.
i know so many americans who do work as shop hands in macy's or soem factory. the govt can tap into them and subsidise their nursing education. the value they will add to the economy as nurses will more than make up for the subsidy.
and if nothing works, there is medical outsourcing - where a person can come to china or thailand or india for a complete medical treatment - all for 3000 dollars. there will be 3 nurses attending round the clock
a far better and er.. safer investment would be to try and vitalise the dead eastern european/ex-commie economies.
well incentives to have babies are one way to correct issues.
somehow the thing that baffles me most in the whole thing is why simultaneously there is this noise about the shortage of manpower and protest about the outsourcing (which actually tackles the former problem)
Take my hand, my child of love
Come step inside my tears
Swim the magic ocean,
I've been crying all these years
You consider a nurse a low educated job? Can you please further elaborate. I only ask because my wife is a nurse and by no means is that a low educated job.
God is a Concept by which
we measure our pain
I'll say it again
God is a Concept by which
we measure our pain
I don't believe in magic
I don't believe in I-ching
I don't believe in Bible
I don't believe in Tarot
I don't believe in Hitler
I don't believe in Jesus
I don't believe in Kennedy
I don't believe in Buddha
I don't believe in Mantra
I don't believe in Gita
I don't believe in Yoga
I don't believe in Kings
I don't believe in Elvis
I don't believe in Zimmerman
I don't believe in Beatles
I just believe in me...and that reality
The dream is over
What can I say?
the Dream is Over
Yesterday
I was the Dreamweaver
But now I'm reborn
I was the Walrus
But now I'm John
and so dear friends
you'll just have to carry on
The Dream is over
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Yes, i didn't mean it in a disrespective way. It's not a job that needs academic education. Because of the shortage on nurses over here they are giving courses to become nurses for unemployed who want a new career and a certain job and those courses last about 1 1/2 - 2 years and consist largely of training in the workplace. I'm sure there are different types of nurses but what is mostly needed here is care takers for old people (giving food, medicine, changing the sheets, washing...) not in ER or the surgery room where i'm sure they need plenty of medical and other knowledge/ skills.
yeah, i think he meant what in usa is called a CNA (certified nurse assistant), those who are "care takers"
but back on topic - what are europe's choices now??
and is usa, and canada and australia and nz facing similar problems?
Take my hand, my child of love
Come step inside my tears
Swim the magic ocean,
I've been crying all these years
OK. It's the same here except home care givers are not called nurses, they are called Home Health Aides or Nurse's Aides.
i think i found a place to move after law school. spend my life nailing hot young czech women
honestly, people having less kids is a good thing i think. now if only we could find a way to redirect some of the resources they dont need to people who do need them, we'd be set.
I don't know that much about the health sector in Europa as a whole but at least for a while nurses form Finland have been going to Norway and U.K. and we've started to import doctors and nurses for the public sector from Estonia, since it's the easiest choice, because they already speak almost the same language and Estonian salaries are still smaller than ours.
In the constructions, where you don't need to speak much finnish, most workers come here from Estonia,Latvia and Lithuania.
So i think the same crunch will affect all the countries with similar population structure and many different types of jobs. Finland will be on the losing end since the work force will much rather go to Central Europe than here and highly educated finns will move abroad too after better salary and services.
exactly,but the political will to give them EU money to get them on their feet is lacking. Europe as an big unified state is a beautiful thought but still far from reality. The eastern european countries would be valuable fro many reasons, one being their good farm land, the best in Europe, but to get them to produce goods more efficiently they need a lot of economical support,which none of the old (rich) EU-countries is willing to give.
Every EU-member still considers giving aid to another (poorer) new member like they are losing money because of EU and the poor countries altho it would benefit the EU as a whole to get newer members on their feet.
That's one debate here. Should government pay companies for their losses when an employee has a child and can't work for a while. Also the women want to pursue their careers and educate themselves high and maybe have 1-2 children in their 30's when they've achieved a firm status in their workplace. Well over half of the university students here are women in some universities it's 80%. After 4-7 years of getting everyone wants to work and not stay home with kids.
I will get back on the last dilemma of yours after a smoke.
how about letting the companies of western europe do the job?? i mean going the FDI way instead of western european govts supplying aid money. much of china's economic success owes itself to fdi by b ig mnc companies where the company keeps the profits (after giving the chinese govt some royalty/tax) and the people of china get the jobs. same thing in india to, tho lesser scale.
getting what??
but even then there are so many stay at home moms. who could easily have more kids if the govt shared the burden of raising the kids.
Take my hand, my child of love
Come step inside my tears
Swim the magic ocean,
I've been crying all these years
If you want to improve the economy why don't we have the government give everyone an extra $100,000 annually that they have to spend on goods and services made in their country. Sounds pretty assinine but no more crazy than paying families to be baby making machines.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
should europe sit and watch itself weakening and collapsing and being overrun by immigrants??
Take my hand, my child of love
Come step inside my tears
Swim the magic ocean,
I've been crying all these years
Well it's a complex thing. It's hard to put a 40 year old factory worker to work in a hospital anyway. Back in the day of protectionism governments could fund domestic industries and keep them competitive. In Finland for example we have/had a strong metal industry since we had to pay Russia "war damages" for 20 years after the war with goods mostly made by the metal industry and even after the damages were payed they remained our biggest trade partner and mostly the trade was done by trading goods for goods no money. We got cheap oil form there so even the oil crisis in the 70's didn't affect us that much. When Russia collapsed and european markets opened the industry started to struggle. The old facilities were still up and running but no new investments were being made.
The same happened with forest/paper industry which is huge here and paper workers have always had huge salaries since their significance for export is grucial and they won't give away any benefits they've fought for during the years.
The education system couldn't adapt to the changing economical system and it was producing the same amount of young metal/paper workers as before when everyone got a job for sure so the number of unemployed got higher fast. At the same time the bigger generations were starting to need more and more health care and for longer periods than before since they were living longer. The underpayed health and social care sectors started to run out of money and new employees.
Even now schools have to compete to get in as much students as possible so they develop programs that attract large number of sudents like graphic design for example. There are vast amounts of new graphic designers graduating all over the country although there are basically now new job openings anywhere, but the shcools don't mind since they get their funds according to the amount of kids getting in and graduating.
So the biggest problem is that the outsourcing is uneven and affects the old traditional industries the most which for many people is hard to accept since thing like finnish wood and paper are somewhat a national thing to count on and be proud of but now it's diminishing.
The other problem is the difference between what type of people are graduating and what type of people are actually needed in the workforce...
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
Oh, sorry. =A gollege degree.
They should've made decisions to encourage people to have more kids 20 years ago now there's not much room to help young families since the pension bomb is about to blow
hitech/developed countries can ill afford to produce produce so many graduates in low-tech walks of life.
now i understand why he west is so woefully short of technically skilled manpower, while at the same time being technologically advanced.
and what baffles me now (a new bafffle !!) is why students want to graduate in arts based courses when the whole market demand is for science guys.
Take my hand, my child of love
Come step inside my tears
Swim the magic ocean,
I've been crying all these years
usa is the third most populous country inthe world and even after so many non-white immigrants, they account for maybe 10% of the population, if that.
if smaller european countries took in that many people, they would collapse or at least their demographics would get skewed permanently.
Take my hand, my child of love
Come step inside my tears
Swim the magic ocean,
I've been crying all these years
i see faith in a higher power as humans way of supporting its belief that we are advanced... we cannot imagine that we evolved from lower beings...our arrogance makes us believe that we are created by an "all-mighty god" to justify our arrogant view of ourself and our place in the world/universe
this subject can be very deep and causes me to drift off into hours of contemplation... so i do thank organized religion for that
ps... who doesnt know the catholic religion is a COMPLETE FRAUD?
i agree, and i dont even have kids