I think you are making a moral mistake by considering all of those viewpoints to be valid. How can it even be argued that a human is not a human from the moment it is conceived?
Who has the right to make such arbitrary declarations about when a human becomes a human?
But that's arbitrary. I could just as well decide that a human is not really a human until he or she has control of over its own behavior.
you're right. it IS arbitrary. that's the point. so why should all of society have to follow YOUR arbitrary line?
Neither of you have said why a person might feel guilty about seeking an abortion after having seen such images.
It has been mentioned in this thread that this is an attempt to put a guilt trip on women.
Why might they feel guilty?
they are MANIPULATED into feeling guilty for aborting. they are MANIPULATED into feeling that what they are doing is wrong. out of experience i can tell you that you are degraded by some for your decision. that sometimes people damn you to hell. and that they are people who don't know you or your circumstance.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
they are MANIPULATED into feeling guilty for aborting. they are MANIPULATED into feeling that what they are doing is wrong. out of experience i can tell you that you are degraded by some for your decision. that sometimes people damn you to hell. and that they are people who don't know you or your circumstance.
Exactly. The purpose of the ultra sound, to make the girl see the baby so they choose not to have the abortion and to make them feel guilty if they do.
A choice one feels must be kept secret because people are so judgemental and cruel. Many moons ago I made a choice when I was quite young and in an abusive relationship with nowhere to go. Yes, I think about what might have been and feel loss and wonder but considering what my situation was at that time, I was scared enough for my own life let alone a little baby.
"Speak your mind even if your voice shakes" ~ M Kuhn
you're right. it IS arbitrary. that's the point. so why should all of society have to follow YOUR arbitrary line?
I don't have a line. I believe a human being is a human being regardless of its stage of development.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
they are MANIPULATED into feeling guilty for aborting. they are MANIPULATED into feeling that what they are doing is wrong. out of experience i can tell you that you are degraded by some for your decision. that sometimes people damn you to hell. and that they are people who don't know you or your circumstance.
I didn't ask why they might feel guilty for getting an abortion. But looking at that in and of itself, I can't believe that it isn't natural to feel loss and despair after an abortion. That's bullshit to say a woman would only feel guilty because of society.
Why might the ultrasound make them feel guilty?
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
the ultrasound is a visual representation of what it is they are disposing of.
Yes. And why might seeing that make them guilty?
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
I don't have a line. I believe a human being is a human being regardless of its stage of development.
that is a line. why not an egg? what about sperm? is masturbation genocide? at what point after you blow your load inside her does it become a human? do you even know? once the egg is fertilized? that's a line you're drawing. is a woman who drinks while pregnant liable for murder or child abuse? what if she's a poor eater and it damages the fetus? negligent care? how far does this line go?
it's still a line amigo. you just draw it earlier. people of your ilk used to draw it even earlier than you do. they realized how stupid that was though. here's hoping you come to the same realization about your ideology and one day have the strength to admit that your belief is not fact.
cos it looks like a person and they know one day it might be. ever watch a movie and cry? know anyone who has? did they think it was really happening? that the person who just died onscreen actually died? or did the images simply trigger their human capacity for empathy and emotion, and make them feel sad, or angry, or proud? seeing an ultrasound and having it upset you means nothing. all it means is the people wanting to add to psychological pain of a woman making such a difficult decision are sick sons of bitches who get off on manipulating people to prove a political point.
women who see it might feel guilt becos it was a difficult choice to make and it will have consequences and we are all bound to second guess ourselves on major decisions. is an american soldier wrong for feeling guilty about shooting an iraqi suicide bomber becos he wonders if maybe he could have stopped it some other way? maybe he could have, maybe he couldnt have. but he made a difficult judgment call and it is not for us to second guess his decisions in a situation we cannot begin to comprehend. should we "prepare" soldiers for battle in iraq by showing them the mangled bodies of iraqi children, just so that they "know" what they might end up doing by their decision to enlist?
abortion blablabla...some people want it some people don't.... whatever...
now they can get a postcard if they want of the whole experience.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
cos it looks like a person and they know one day it might be. ever watch a movie and cry? know anyone who has? did they think it was really happening? that the person who just died onscreen actually died? or did the images simply trigger their human capacity for empathy and emotion, and make them feel sad, or angry, or proud? seeing an ultrasound and having it upset you means nothing. all it means is the people wanting to add to psychological pain of a woman making such a difficult decision are sick sons of bitches who get off on manipulating people to prove a political point.
women who see it might feel guilt becos it was a difficult choice to make and it will have consequences and we are all bound to second guess ourselves on major decisions. is an american soldier wrong for feeling guilty about shooting an iraqi suicide bomber becos he wonders if maybe he could have stopped it some other way? maybe he could have, maybe he couldnt have. but he made a difficult judgment call and it is not for us to second guess his decisions in a situation we cannot begin to comprehend. should we "prepare" soldiers for battle in iraq by showing them the mangled bodies of iraqi children, just so that they "know" what they might end up doing by their decision to enlist?
Oooh! There's an idea ss. Not that I'd ever advocate it. But as a potential suggestion, why don't they fit cameras to the helmets of all soldiers so that they video tape every killing and then make them sit through the video after the fact? Yeah, a completely sick thought, I agree but I'm just wondering perhaps if Trau might be able to better understand this analogy better than the women/abortion/ultrasound one?
that is a line. why not an egg? what about sperm? is masturbation genocide? at what point after you blow your load inside her does it become a human? do you even know? once the egg is fertilized? that's a line you're drawing.
I consider human to be a human as soon as he or she is conceived. This is not a line drawn by me but by nature, and is therefore not arbitrary.
Sperm and eggs are not humans by themselves because they will not, on their own, develop into anything else. They are what they are. When a child is conceived, a process of development has begun.
is a woman who drinks while pregnant liable for murder or child abuse? what if she's a poor eater and it damages the fetus? negligent care?
Yes, of course.
it's still a line amigo. you just draw it earlier.
Again, I haven't drawn any line at all. I have gone to the beginning, where nature has chosen to begin the process of human development.
people of your ilk used to draw it even earlier than you do. they realized how stupid that was though. here's hoping you come to the same realization about your ideology and one day have the strength to admit that your belief is not fact.
Just what is my ilk and what is my ideology?
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
"If you think that women take the issue of abortion with a grain of salt then I think you are very much mistaken."
Why not take it with a grain of salt? Why is it a difficult decision to make?
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
The potential is there for an independent human life. I know this will please you no end. So jump on me now. That's what you've been hoping for right?
Have you been manipulated by society to feel compassion for a life that will be lost? Or do you think that as a human being, you would naturally find it difficult to decide whether or not to rid yourself of the child?
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
Have you been manipulated by society to feel compassion for a life that will be lost? Or do you think that as a human being, you would naturally find it difficult to decide whether or not to rid yourself of the child?
As a human being I would find it difficult to decide whether or not to rid my body of the potential for a human being.
Okay. And what reasons would you deem acceptable for extinguishing that "potential" life?
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
I didn't know having a child could drive you insane.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
1) The health/psychological/economic/social or physical hardship of the incubator. As decided by the incubator.
2) The complete non participation of the male dna donor
3) The health of the potential life
4) The potential for ill health/psychological/economic/social or physical harship of the potential life as decided by the incubator.
Why are each of those reasons more important than the right of that "potential" person to live?
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
Why are each of those reasons more important than the right of that "potential" person to live?
These may not be the reasons that other people have for seeking a termination of pregnancy Trau.
So bearing in mind that they are mine, then I'll say quiet plainly that I am an advocate of quality of life over quantity of life.
So should I find myself pregnant and wanting a termination for any of the above reasons then my decision to terminate would always be based on the following question. Can I provide a quality life for this potential person?
Life above all else is not always the most humane option.
Especially since you don't have to raise the child if you do not want to.
It seems like convenience for you versus another person's right to exist.
In the shadow of the light from a black sun
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
Comments
you're right. it IS arbitrary. that's the point. so why should all of society have to follow YOUR arbitrary line?
they are MANIPULATED into feeling guilty for aborting. they are MANIPULATED into feeling that what they are doing is wrong. out of experience i can tell you that you are degraded by some for your decision. that sometimes people damn you to hell. and that they are people who don't know you or your circumstance.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Exactly. The purpose of the ultra sound, to make the girl see the baby so they choose not to have the abortion and to make them feel guilty if they do.
A choice one feels must be kept secret because people are so judgemental and cruel. Many moons ago I made a choice when I was quite young and in an abusive relationship with nowhere to go. Yes, I think about what might have been and feel loss and wonder but considering what my situation was at that time, I was scared enough for my own life let alone a little baby.
I don't have a line. I believe a human being is a human being regardless of its stage of development.
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
I didn't ask why they might feel guilty for getting an abortion. But looking at that in and of itself, I can't believe that it isn't natural to feel loss and despair after an abortion. That's bullshit to say a woman would only feel guilty because of society.
Why might the ultrasound make them feel guilty?
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
the ultrasound is a visual representation of what it is they are disposing of.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Yes. And why might seeing that make them guilty?
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
that is a line. why not an egg? what about sperm? is masturbation genocide? at what point after you blow your load inside her does it become a human? do you even know? once the egg is fertilized? that's a line you're drawing. is a woman who drinks while pregnant liable for murder or child abuse? what if she's a poor eater and it damages the fetus? negligent care? how far does this line go?
it's still a line amigo. you just draw it earlier. people of your ilk used to draw it even earlier than you do. they realized how stupid that was though. here's hoping you come to the same realization about your ideology and one day have the strength to admit that your belief is not fact.
"If you think that women take the issue of abortion with a grain of salt then I think you are very much mistaken."
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
cos it looks like a person and they know one day it might be. ever watch a movie and cry? know anyone who has? did they think it was really happening? that the person who just died onscreen actually died? or did the images simply trigger their human capacity for empathy and emotion, and make them feel sad, or angry, or proud? seeing an ultrasound and having it upset you means nothing. all it means is the people wanting to add to psychological pain of a woman making such a difficult decision are sick sons of bitches who get off on manipulating people to prove a political point.
women who see it might feel guilt becos it was a difficult choice to make and it will have consequences and we are all bound to second guess ourselves on major decisions. is an american soldier wrong for feeling guilty about shooting an iraqi suicide bomber becos he wonders if maybe he could have stopped it some other way? maybe he could have, maybe he couldnt have. but he made a difficult judgment call and it is not for us to second guess his decisions in a situation we cannot begin to comprehend. should we "prepare" soldiers for battle in iraq by showing them the mangled bodies of iraqi children, just so that they "know" what they might end up doing by their decision to enlist?
now they can get a postcard if they want of the whole experience.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
i didn't say it did. i said they were manipulated into feeling they were wrong in taking a human life despite its primitive form.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Oooh! There's an idea ss. Not that I'd ever advocate it. But as a potential suggestion, why don't they fit cameras to the helmets of all soldiers so that they video tape every killing and then make them sit through the video after the fact? Yeah, a completely sick thought, I agree but I'm just wondering perhaps if Trau might be able to better understand this analogy better than the women/abortion/ultrasound one?
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
I consider human to be a human as soon as he or she is conceived. This is not a line drawn by me but by nature, and is therefore not arbitrary.
Sperm and eggs are not humans by themselves because they will not, on their own, develop into anything else. They are what they are. When a child is conceived, a process of development has begun.
Yes, of course.
Again, I haven't drawn any line at all. I have gone to the beginning, where nature has chosen to begin the process of human development.
Just what is my ilk and what is my ideology?
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
Why not take it with a grain of salt? Why is it a difficult decision to make?
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
Are you pushing for something in particular?
The potential is there for an independent human life. I know this will please you no end. So jump on me now. That's what you've been hoping for right?
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Have you been manipulated by society to feel compassion for a life that will be lost? Or do you think that as a human being, you would naturally find it difficult to decide whether or not to rid yourself of the child?
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
As a human being I would find it difficult to decide whether or not to rid my body of the potential for a human being.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
when my personal well being is at risk.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Define personal well-being.
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
my sanity.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I didn't know having a child could drive you insane.
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
then you obviously haven't
A) been a parent
C) had a mental illness.
D) any idea what you're talking about.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
1) The health/psychological/economic/social or physical hardship of the incubator. As decided by the incubator.
2) The complete non participation of the male dna donor
3) The health of the potential life
4) The potential for ill health/psychological/economic/social or physical harship of the potential life as decided by the incubator.
Not sure if I've missed anything. I'll add it later if I have.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
Why are each of those reasons more important than the right of that "potential" person to live?
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try
What did I forget Roland?
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
These may not be the reasons that other people have for seeking a termination of pregnancy Trau.
So bearing in mind that they are mine, then I'll say quiet plainly that I am an advocate of quality of life over quantity of life.
So should I find myself pregnant and wanting a termination for any of the above reasons then my decision to terminate would always be based on the following question. Can I provide a quality life for this potential person?
Life above all else is not always the most humane option.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Especially since you don't have to raise the child if you do not want to.
It seems like convenience for you versus another person's right to exist.
Frigid statue standing icy blue and numb
Where are the frost giants Ive begged for protection?
I'm freezing
Are you afraid, afraid to die
Don't be afraid, afraid to try