I'm actually looking at the effects of impoverishment on child development and it's not very good. But that is besides the point.
"women hold the power"
Let's look at this from natures perspective, without laws.
The male and female have sex, the woman is pregnant, the guy fucks of or sticks around, it's entirely his choice and in that sense he holds the 'power'. At least the power to choose his own actions.
Enter the law, the law says this is wrong, and the women should be in charge of the men's actions, while maintaining their own freedom.
So, yes, women have the power, by law, not because it's the natural course. But because of some seriously bias and ridiculous laws that have been passed.
no not just by law ryan. i am not speaking of forcing men to pay child support. i'm talking about the woman's decisions when it comes to her own body.
and honestly how much power does either sex have when we have no free will anyway?
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Ryan, I'm confused by this. How is it biased against men if we ultimately accept that people have a right to do what they will with their own body?
If you say that it's ok for a guy to screw without a condom and then leave if he chooses then you have to say that if his screwing a woman resulted in her pregnancy then she has the right to "leave" the situation also. As far as I can see both parties have rights and responsibilities they just come at different times in the equation.
I don't know I'm just reading this as it's ok for a guy to scatter his sperm wherever he wants and that if that then results in him "making a mess" so to speak in someone elses body then they have no right to clean up that mess.
There's nothing "powerful" about abortion. It is what it is.
Maybe I'm misreading what you mean?
Yea, you are misreading it. I'm saying it's ok for women to walk away from pregnancy (a.k.a have an abortion), but it should be equally ok for men to walk away. That doesn't seem to be the case.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Yea, you are misreading it. I'm saying it's ok for women to walk away from pregnancy (a.k.a have an abortion), but it should be equally ok for men to walk away. That doesn't seem to be the case.
How so? Not man bashing, but it seems to me they do walk away and it is ok.
I mean it's not like a man is hounded because his girlfriend had an abortion. I mean when was the last time you heard people getting up in arms in the media about men contributing to the abortion rate? Or chasing a guy around waving placards because the child he helped concieve was aborted? When was the last time that men where even expected to consider a jail term for having contributed to the action of an abortion? Guys that get a girl pregnant don't have to undergo invasive surgery to ensure their freedom. They don't have to undergo psychological interviews to assertain if they are "allowed" to abort. They aren't vilified.
That's not to say that I think they should be. I'm just not understanding why you think they don't get to walk away and it's ok. Or that women do.
How so? Not man bashing, but it seems to me they do walk away and it is ok.
I mean it's not like a man is hounded because his girlfriend had an abortion. I mean when was the last time you heard people getting up in arms in the media about men contributing to the abortion rate? Or chasing a guy around waving placards because the child he helped concieve was aborted? When was the last time that men where even expected to consider a jail term for having contributed to the action of an abortion? Guys that get a girl pregnant don't have to undergo invasive surgery to ensure their freedom. They don't have to undergo psychological interviews to assertain if they are "allowed" to abort. They aren't vilified.
That's not to say that I think they should be. I'm just not understanding why you think they don't get to walk away and it's ok. Or that women do.
i don't see men as contributing to the abortion rate per se jeanie.
and you have to know in this patriarchal society we live in any bias will go the way of the being benficial to the man. the fact that laws are needed to be enacted in order that a child receives the benefits it does is testimony to the fact that men are dogs who given the choice probably would rather walk away than ensure their child has an advantage or even a chance at the life ALL children deserve, regardless of the circumstances under which it was bought into this shit hole of a world.
and of course i am not speaking of ALL men. it's just easier to use the term men generally for argument's sake.
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i don't see men as contributing to the abortion rate per se jeanie.
and you have to know in this patriarchal society we live in any bias will go the way of the being benficial to the man. the fact that laws are needed to be enacted in order that a child receives the benefits it does is testimony to the fact that men are dogs who given the choice probably would rather walk away than ensure their child has an advantage or even a chance at the life ALL children deserve, regardless of the circumstances under which it was bought into this shit hole of a world.
and of course i am not speaking of ALL men. it's just easier to use the term men generally for argument's sake.
Well I guess I do. Lets face it men and women have been having sex for a very long time. We are all well aware of what the outcomes of sex can be.
To my way of thinking if there's an abortion taking place then a man contributed it to. Whether he is against abortion or not, by participating in the sex act in the first place he is contributing to the outcome. He gets a pat on the back for his efforts if the child is born and his contribution is acknowledged. Why then is this not also the case if the pregnancy ends in abortion? That his contribution is acknowledged? It can still only happen if a man is also present regardless the outcome. It's not new information.
And obviously not all of them, but it would be nice to see some stats on just how many women have been left "up the duff" and told to "get rid of it" as he's running out the door. I'm tired of hearing about "murderous" women. They don't get pregnant on their own, otherwise none of us would ever masturbate again!
How so? Not man bashing, but it seems to me they do walk away and it is ok.
I mean it's not like a man is hounded because his girlfriend had an abortion. I mean when was the last time you heard people getting up in arms in the media about men contributing to the abortion rate? Or chasing a guy around waving placards because the child he helped concieve was aborted? When was the last time that men where even expected to consider a jail term for having contributed to the action of an abortion? Guys that get a girl pregnant don't have to undergo invasive surgery to ensure their freedom. They don't have to undergo psychological interviews to assertain if they are "allowed" to abort. They aren't vilified.
That's not to say that I think they should be. I'm just not understanding why you think they don't get to walk away and it's ok. Or that women do.
This is why I wouldn't date you Jeanie.
Seriously, my GF and I talked about this over lunch and pretty much came to an agreement within 5 minutes.
All of those things you mentioned pertain to if the woman had an abortion. But what if she didn't? What would be the fate of the man then? Society constantly hounds "dead-beat dads" and does in-fact sentence them to prison.
I'm referring to this double-standard. Yes, it's ok for you to choose abortion or not, but it's not ok for that decision to dictate the fate of the man you had sex with.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
The men impregnate a woman and then jet, and so the women want to have abortions because they can't raise the child on their own. However, then it sounds like you want to not only have that option, but choose to raise the child on your own and stick the guy for support payments, then why isn't abortion illegal? It's like you want your cake and eat it too.
Nature has given women a bum rap, and instead of coming to a realistic solution for our current cultural flaws, you want to shift as much of the burden you can over to men, even unjustifiably.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Seriously, my GF and I talked about this over lunch and pretty much came to an agreement within 5 minutes.
All of those things you mentioned pertain to if the woman had an abortion. But what if she didn't? What would be the fate of the man then? Society constantly hounds "dead-beat dads" and does in-fact sentence them to prison.
I'm referring to this double-standard. Yes, it's ok for you to choose abortion or not, but it's not ok for that decision to dictate the fate of the man you had sex with.
Oh I think I'll survive the disappointment Ryan!
Again, I'll say that a man's right to choose is at the point of and/or before sexual contact.
If he doesn't want to be "hounded" for child support or have to stand by as his child is aborted then the thing to do would be to do what you've done with your girlfriend and have the conversation BEFORE a pregnancy occurs. And then take adequate precautions. Men do have choices, as do Women. They can choose to protect themselves. They can choose to make their views known in advance. They can choose not to have sex with a woman if they think she wouldn't honor their views in the advent of a pregnancy. I don't think it's a double standard as the law has had to find the fairest policy given the circumstances as they apply. And I think they've done that. You don't wanna play child support or abortion? Then wear a bloody condom or don't have sex! I don't think sending dead beat dad's to prison is the answer, but I'd love to know how those same men would feel if their own father was so abhorent at their arrival that they were prepared to go to prison instead of taking responsibility for their actions.
Again, I'll say that a man's right to choose is at the point of and/or before sexual contact.
If he doesn't want to be "hounded" for child support or have to stand by as his child is aborted then the thing to do would be to do what you've done with your girlfriend and have the conversation BEFORE a pregnancy occurs. And then take adequate precautions. Men do have choices, as do Women. They can choose to protect themselves. They can choose to make their views known in advance. They can choose not to have sex with a woman if they think she wouldn't honor their views in the advent of a pregnancy. I don't think it's a double standard as the law has had to find the fairest policy given the circumstances as they apply. And I think they've done that. You don't wanna play child support or abortion? Then wear a bloody condom or don't have sex! I don't think sending dead beat dad's to prison is the answer, but I'd love to know how those same men would feel if their own father was so abhorent at their arrival that they were prepared to go to prison instead of taking responsibility for their actions.
Just apply this same logic to women and you have a reason to make abortion illegal. "You don't want to suffer the consequences... don't have sex."
That's why I'm saying the position of pro-choice pro-support is hypocritical.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Just apply this same logic to women and you have a reason to make abortion illegal. "You don't want to suffer the consequences... don't have sex."
That's why I'm saying the position of pro-choice pro-support is hypocritical.
How on earth is that the same? There's lots of reasons to make abortion illegal just as there are lots of reasons to make men accountable.
I don't know ryan, I don't get all these labels that people have for this stuff.
We've already established that this isn't an either or situation. It's complicated. I really don't understand why it's necessary to make it black and white. If it was black and white then the law would reflect that.
I mean heaven forbid that the law said that if the woman decided that she was over being a mother that men should shoulder all the responsibility of child rearing! I'd love to see what would happen if men could get pregnant. Perhaps this would act as a deterrant? Maybe more men would suddenly be very interested in male contraception? But then I'm still waiting for society to clear up the double standard that a woman fucking as many blokes as she likes is labelled a slut where as a man in the same position is considered a stud.
Since it has been pointed out many times on here by many, that most people know sex causes pregnancy, maybe it's time for society to create a consent law.
If a woman becomes pregnant and decides to keep the baby, the father has to agree. If he doesn't want the child, since he cannot choose abortion being that it is not his body, he signs off on all rights to the child and does not have to pay child support.
This then is the womans choice to have and provide for the child in question alone.
This arrangement would allow women to continue to have the choice over their bodies and will allow men to have a choice over their futures.
That being said, and I being a pro-lifer, I maintain that such idiocy would not even have to be considered if people would:
1. Be more responsible with sex.
2. Be more responsible with any children born thereof.
3. Erraticate the option of abortion all together.
4. Push for younger sex education.
5. Re-institute stronger morals and values in the family.
Makes much more sense, to live in the present tense.
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
Since it has been pointed out many times on here by many, that most people know sex causes pregnancy, maybe it's time for society to create a consent law.
If a woman becomes pregnant and decides to keep the baby, the father has to agree. If he doesn't want the child, since he cannot choose abortion being that it is not his body, he signs off on all rights to the child and does not have to pay child support.
This then is the womans choice to have and provide for the child in question alone.
This arrangement would allow women to continue to have the choice over their bodies and will allow men to have a choice over their futures.
That being said, and I being a pro-lifer, I maintain that such idiocy would not even have to be considered if people would:
1. Be more responsible with sex.
2. Be more responsible with any children born thereof.
3. Erraticate the option of abortion all together.
4. Push for younger sex education.
5. Re-institute stronger morals and values in the family.
What about the kids?
At some point I know I'd wanna know who my Daddy was and why he didn't love me. And quite frankly if Mummy's answer was gonna be "some asshole raped me when I was a girl but I couldn't bring myself to abort you" then I know I truly would wish she had.
How on earth is that the same? There's lots of reasons to make abortion illegal just as there are lots of reasons to make men accountable.
I don't know ryan, I don't get all these labels that people have for this stuff.
We've already established that this isn't an either or situation. It's complicated. I really don't understand why it's necessary to make it black and white. If it was black and white then the law would reflect that.
I mean heaven forbid that the law said that if the woman decided that she was over being a mother that men should shoulder all the responsibility of child rearing! I'd love to see what would happen if men could get pregnant. Perhaps this would act as a deterrant? Maybe more men would suddenly be very interested in male contraception? But then I'm still waiting for society to clear up the double standard that a woman fucking as many blokes as she likes is labelled a slut where as a man in the same position is considered a stud.
I agree with the slut/stud thing, but that's totally off-topic.
It seems we will have to disagree due to situational biases.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
That being said, and I being a pro-lifer, I maintain that such idiocy would not even have to be considered if people would:
1. Be more responsible with sex.
2. Be more responsible with any children born thereof.
3. Erraticate the option of abortion all together.
4. Push for younger sex education.
5. Re-institute stronger morals and values in the family.
Ah yes, the old "Everything would be just grand if only everyone was more like me!" argument. You know, I think that very thing myself from time to time, but I realize that it doesn't make for sound social policy because most people aren't anything like me at all, and they're not ever going to be. Most people aren't much like you either. And no matter what anyone says or does ...
1. Some people are going to have sex irresponsibly (or against their will).
2. Some people are lousy parents.
3. You can't eradicate abortions, some people always have and always will get them.
4. Some people will always be opposed to sex education at any age.
5. Plenty of people will have morals and values different from yours or mine.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
I agree with the slut/stud thing, but that's totally off-topic.
It seems we will have to disagree due to situational biases.
I'm not so sure we do disagree Ryan.
My mind is not made up and set in concrete on this issue. That's what I mean about it not being black and white. There isn't a solution that will benefit all. I doubt there ever will be.
Will I always support abortion? Yep, because I cannot see that we can ever really eradicate the need for it.
Do I think that all men are bastards and should pay child support whether they wanted the kid or not? Well I'm still undecided about that. Well not about the all men are bastards! I know they aren't.
My dad didn't pay it, I don't hate him for it, but I think my life would have been a lot better if he did. Can I change that now? Nope. It is what it is.
Do I think he should have gone to jail for it? Absolutely not! Do I think he should have paid it? Yep! Absolutely! But then hindsight is a wonderful thing.
In hindsight I believe that my Mum should have aborted me and never married my Dad, had my brother or got divorced either. But they did what they did. And here I am. And I see this kind of situation happening all the time.
People make choices, good and bad choices and society tries to keep up with those choices by writing laws to resolve conflict in an equatible fashion. Sometimes the law is fair and equitable and sometimes it's not. BUT people still know the law as it stands. And they still need to take responsibility for their choices. And they are still going to make mistakes and unfortunately suffer the consequences of those mistakes. That's life.
At some point I know I'd wanna know who my Daddy was and why he didn't love me. And quite frankly if Mummy's answer was gonna be "some asshole raped me when I was a girl but I couldn't bring myself to abort you" then I know I truly would wish she had.
Now why is it the man who doesn't want the child labled as unloving, yet the woman who kills her unborn child via abortion is still a loving individual?
Makes much more sense, to live in the present tense.
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
Ah yes, the old "Everything would be just grand if only everyone was more like me!" argument. You know, I think that very thing myself from time to time, but I realize that it doesn't make for sound social policy because most people aren't anything like me at all, and they're not ever going to be. Most people aren't much like you either. And no matter what anyone says or does ...
1. Some people are going to have sex irresponsibly (or against their will).
2. Some people are lousy parents.
3. You can't eradicate abortions, some people always have and always will get them.
4. Some people will always be opposed to sex education at any age.
5. Plenty of people will have morals and values different from yours or mine.
Well, lets see...I never killed any of my unborn children. I wanted all the children I have concieved and have raised them with great parenting skills because I am a responsible individual and was educated on such things as reproduction and morals. My life is pretty good. I have a clean conscience and I never have to second guess my choices. Seems to me this equation works pretty well. I am confident that I am an upstanding member of society and that no one could ever accuse me of violence, disregard or selfishness.
As for the "some people" you mention in your list, just because they don't have it together doesn't mean that an innocent child should die for it.
Here's an idea. How about if a woman gets pregnant by "accident" (rolls eyes) she steps up to the plate and actually parents and supports the child she allowed to be concieved. Sounds pretty reasonable to me.
If she isnt stable enough to do so, then adoption is still always an option.
As for the woman who was raped and concieved, these instances are considerably less than the woman who simply doesnt want her child. The argument is for the later. The rape victim could also choose to keep the child. After all it is her flesh and blood too. She could also choose to place the child for adoption.
I have to wonder...what do your own living children think of you and of the siblings they have lost and will never get to know?
Makes much more sense, to live in the present tense.
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
Well, lets see...I never killed any of my unborn children. I wanted all the children I have concieved and have raised them with great parenting skills because I am a responsible individual and was educated on such things as reproduction and morals. My life is pretty good. I have a clean conscience and I never have to second guess my choices. Seems to me this equation works pretty well. I am confident that I am an upstanding member of society and that no one could ever accuse me of violence, disregard or selfishness.
As for the "some people" you mention in your list, just because they don't have it together doesn't mean that an innocent child should die for it.
Here's an idea. How about if a woman gets pregnant by "accident" (rolls eyes) she steps up to the plate and actually parents and supports the child she allowed to be concieved. Sounds pretty reasonable to me.
If she isnt stable enough to do so, then adoption is still always an option.
As for the woman who was raped and concieved, these instances are considerably less than the woman who simply doesnt want her child. The argument is for the later. The rape victim could also choose to keep the child. After all it is her flesh and blood too. She could also choose to place the child for adoption.
I have to wonder...what do your own living children think of you and of the siblings they have lost and will never get to know?
Forcing people to have children when they don't want them is showing no regard for the child's life once it's born, where it can be put into situations such as poverty, neglect, and abuse. I'm going with the fetus not suffering during an abortion over a child forced into a life full of painful memories.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Now why is it the man who doesn't want the child labled as unloving, yet the woman who kills her unborn child via abortion is still a loving individual?
Don't see me labelling anybody anything here.
Guess if you live with labels that might be how you see it, but it's certainly not how I view things.
Forcing people to have children when they don't want them is showing no regard for the child's life once it's born, where it can be put into situations such as poverty, neglect, and abuse. I'm going with the fetus not suffering during an abortion over a child forced into a life full of painful memories.
Well, lets see...I never killed any of my unborn children. I wanted all the children I have concieved and have raised them with great parenting skills because I am a responsible individual and was educated on such things as reproduction and morals. My life is pretty good. I have a clean conscience and I never have to second guess my choices. Seems to me this equation works pretty well. I am confident that I am an upstanding member of society and that no one could ever accuse me of violence, disregard or selfishness.
That's very nice, I'm happy for you. If you substitute the words "gave birth to" for "conceived," the entire paragraph applies to me as well. Let's pat ourselves on the back for a job well done, shall we?
Here's an idea. How about if a woman gets pregnant by "accident" (rolls eyes) she steps up to the plate and actually parents and supports the child she allowed to be concieved. Sounds pretty reasonable to me.
Here's another idea. How about if everyone decides for themselves when a new life begins, rather than being bound by Juberoo's beliefs, and makes their personal decisions accordingly.
As for the woman who was raped and concieved, these instances are considerably less than the woman who simply doesnt want her child. The argument is for the later. The rape victim could also choose to keep the child. After all it is her flesh and blood too. She could also choose to place the child for adoption.
I have to wonder...what do your own living children think of you and of the siblings they have lost and will never get to know?
My children (both now adults) don't think of lost siblings because they don't have any. They both understand the fetal development process and they don't believe in the supernatural, so they quite naturally don't think that conception is anything other than one step in the endless continuity of life. I'm confident that if you asked them, they would say that their own lives have been dramatically better in many ways because they were not born to a mother who was forced against her will to bear a rapist's child at the age of 17.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
As for the woman who was raped and concieved, these instances are considerably less than the woman who simply doesnt want her child. The argument is for the later. The rape victim could also choose to keep the child. After all it is her flesh and blood too. She could also choose to place the child for adoption.
have you ever been the victim of rape? short of murder and torture, it is the most heinous crime that can be perpetrated against another person, man or woman. it is a crime of absolute power against a victim weaker than the rapist. sure some women are strong enough to give birth and even raise the child of their rapist. but there are others who have enough trouble dealing with what happened to them, let alone the added 'bonus' of a constant reminder of the violence they've been subjected to.
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If conservatives want to send women to jail for having an abortion, why dont they just let the taliban take over the country? you want to reduce a woman's rights then learn from them. idiots.
What about girls who take the morning after pill? you cant prove they are pregnant but ive heard arguments that say its on par with abortion because you eliminate the possibility of a pregancy. If thats the case, anyone who has used contraception could be jailed. if you're going to be pro life, dont pick and choose the lives you protect eh?
Where sex is consensual:
i think women and men have the duty to absolutely insist on contraception.
Women:STDS. Because there is always the chance you alone will carry the can for an unwanted pregnancy, protect yourself in the first place. If contraception fails, as it does occasionally, take the morning after pill. If that doesnt work, abortion is one of the options available, depending on your circumstances at that time. What guys have to remember is, they can be as supportive as they can be during pregnancy, but can still walk away from the child and the mother. The CSA doesnt do much.
Men: Because you dont want to become a father, because some girls are bitches and tell you they are on the pill but arent, because of STDs Because you dont want the decision to bring your child into the world to be taken out of your hands.
Bringing new life into the world is one of the biggest things people do. shouldnt they have the choice to do so in the best way they possibly can? Do you want to jail parents who dont love or want their kids, who regret the moment they set eyes on the mother/father of their child? Being pro choice protects conservative family values...does it not?
pro lifers need to understand that no woman goes into an abortion lightly and that forcing them to have an unwanted child is evil.
As for the people who say, have the baby and give it up for adoption. As I woman i know that carrying a child in my womb for 9 months and giving birth to it will want to ensure that it will stay by my side, that's nature. I think adoption is harder than abortion, for both child and mother... thats just from my life experiences. Its not all as rosy as the pro lifers pretend it is...
Guess if you live with labels that might be how you see it, but it's certainly not how I view things.
Jeanne, don't be coy. You stated "daddy didn't love me". Your words not mine. You are quick to judge a man for walking out on a child he doesn't want, but refuse to see the vulgarity of a woman who kills a child she doesn't want. After all, by your reasoning, the man walked out on a fetus...he never knew the "child".
Makes much more sense, to live in the present tense.
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
have you ever been the victim of rape? short of murder and torture, it is the most heinous crime that can be perpetrated against another person, man or woman. it is a crime of absolute power against a victim weaker than the rapist. sure some women are strong enough to give birth and even raise the child of their rapist. but there are others who have enough trouble dealing with what happened to them, let alone the added 'bonus' of a constant reminder of the violence they've been subjected to.
No, actually my cousin was. I witnessed her unconditional love for her child....who by no fault of his own was brought into this world under less than desirable circumstances. He is a bright, beautiful human being. She is one of the most amazing women I have ever known. Furthermore, she doesn't consider him a reminder of her rape. She views him as precious because he is living. He is her child. The rapist merely donated a sperm.
Makes much more sense, to live in the present tense.
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
Comments
no not just by law ryan. i am not speaking of forcing men to pay child support. i'm talking about the woman's decisions when it comes to her own body.
and honestly how much power does either sex have when we have no free will anyway?
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Yea, you are misreading it. I'm saying it's ok for women to walk away from pregnancy (a.k.a have an abortion), but it should be equally ok for men to walk away. That doesn't seem to be the case.
How so? Not man bashing, but it seems to me they do walk away and it is ok.
I mean it's not like a man is hounded because his girlfriend had an abortion. I mean when was the last time you heard people getting up in arms in the media about men contributing to the abortion rate? Or chasing a guy around waving placards because the child he helped concieve was aborted? When was the last time that men where even expected to consider a jail term for having contributed to the action of an abortion? Guys that get a girl pregnant don't have to undergo invasive surgery to ensure their freedom. They don't have to undergo psychological interviews to assertain if they are "allowed" to abort. They aren't vilified.
That's not to say that I think they should be. I'm just not understanding why you think they don't get to walk away and it's ok. Or that women do.
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i don't see men as contributing to the abortion rate per se jeanie.
and you have to know in this patriarchal society we live in any bias will go the way of the being benficial to the man. the fact that laws are needed to be enacted in order that a child receives the benefits it does is testimony to the fact that men are dogs who given the choice probably would rather walk away than ensure their child has an advantage or even a chance at the life ALL children deserve, regardless of the circumstances under which it was bought into this shit hole of a world.
and of course i am not speaking of ALL men. it's just easier to use the term men generally for argument's sake.
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Well I guess I do. Lets face it men and women have been having sex for a very long time. We are all well aware of what the outcomes of sex can be.
To my way of thinking if there's an abortion taking place then a man contributed it to. Whether he is against abortion or not, by participating in the sex act in the first place he is contributing to the outcome. He gets a pat on the back for his efforts if the child is born and his contribution is acknowledged. Why then is this not also the case if the pregnancy ends in abortion? That his contribution is acknowledged? It can still only happen if a man is also present regardless the outcome. It's not new information.
And obviously not all of them, but it would be nice to see some stats on just how many women have been left "up the duff" and told to "get rid of it" as he's running out the door. I'm tired of hearing about "murderous" women. They don't get pregnant on their own, otherwise none of us would ever masturbate again!
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This is why I wouldn't date you Jeanie.
Seriously, my GF and I talked about this over lunch and pretty much came to an agreement within 5 minutes.
All of those things you mentioned pertain to if the woman had an abortion. But what if she didn't? What would be the fate of the man then? Society constantly hounds "dead-beat dads" and does in-fact sentence them to prison.
I'm referring to this double-standard. Yes, it's ok for you to choose abortion or not, but it's not ok for that decision to dictate the fate of the man you had sex with.
The men impregnate a woman and then jet, and so the women want to have abortions because they can't raise the child on their own. However, then it sounds like you want to not only have that option, but choose to raise the child on your own and stick the guy for support payments, then why isn't abortion illegal? It's like you want your cake and eat it too.
Nature has given women a bum rap, and instead of coming to a realistic solution for our current cultural flaws, you want to shift as much of the burden you can over to men, even unjustifiably.
Oh I think I'll survive the disappointment Ryan!
Again, I'll say that a man's right to choose is at the point of and/or before sexual contact.
If he doesn't want to be "hounded" for child support or have to stand by as his child is aborted then the thing to do would be to do what you've done with your girlfriend and have the conversation BEFORE a pregnancy occurs. And then take adequate precautions. Men do have choices, as do Women. They can choose to protect themselves. They can choose to make their views known in advance. They can choose not to have sex with a woman if they think she wouldn't honor their views in the advent of a pregnancy. I don't think it's a double standard as the law has had to find the fairest policy given the circumstances as they apply. And I think they've done that. You don't wanna play child support or abortion? Then wear a bloody condom or don't have sex! I don't think sending dead beat dad's to prison is the answer, but I'd love to know how those same men would feel if their own father was so abhorent at their arrival that they were prepared to go to prison instead of taking responsibility for their actions.
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Just apply this same logic to women and you have a reason to make abortion illegal. "You don't want to suffer the consequences... don't have sex."
That's why I'm saying the position of pro-choice pro-support is hypocritical.
if that were the case, i'd be prepared take that chance.
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How on earth is that the same? There's lots of reasons to make abortion illegal just as there are lots of reasons to make men accountable.
I don't know ryan, I don't get all these labels that people have for this stuff.
We've already established that this isn't an either or situation. It's complicated. I really don't understand why it's necessary to make it black and white. If it was black and white then the law would reflect that.
I mean heaven forbid that the law said that if the woman decided that she was over being a mother that men should shoulder all the responsibility of child rearing! I'd love to see what would happen if men could get pregnant. Perhaps this would act as a deterrant? Maybe more men would suddenly be very interested in male contraception? But then I'm still waiting for society to clear up the double standard that a woman fucking as many blokes as she likes is labelled a slut where as a man in the same position is considered a stud.
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And here lies the problem!!
They gotta find ways to make sex not be pleasurable then we could solve all this shit!
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If a woman becomes pregnant and decides to keep the baby, the father has to agree. If he doesn't want the child, since he cannot choose abortion being that it is not his body, he signs off on all rights to the child and does not have to pay child support.
This then is the womans choice to have and provide for the child in question alone.
This arrangement would allow women to continue to have the choice over their bodies and will allow men to have a choice over their futures.
That being said, and I being a pro-lifer, I maintain that such idiocy would not even have to be considered if people would:
1. Be more responsible with sex.
2. Be more responsible with any children born thereof.
3. Erraticate the option of abortion all together.
4. Push for younger sex education.
5. Re-institute stronger morals and values in the family.
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
Pro-life by choice.
i see no problem.
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Well me either to be honest!!
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What about the kids?
At some point I know I'd wanna know who my Daddy was and why he didn't love me. And quite frankly if Mummy's answer was gonna be "some asshole raped me when I was a girl but I couldn't bring myself to abort you" then I know I truly would wish she had.
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I agree with the slut/stud thing, but that's totally off-topic.
It seems we will have to disagree due to situational biases.
1. Some people are going to have sex irresponsibly (or against their will).
2. Some people are lousy parents.
3. You can't eradicate abortions, some people always have and always will get them.
4. Some people will always be opposed to sex education at any age.
5. Plenty of people will have morals and values different from yours or mine.
I'm not so sure we do disagree Ryan.
My mind is not made up and set in concrete on this issue. That's what I mean about it not being black and white. There isn't a solution that will benefit all. I doubt there ever will be.
Will I always support abortion? Yep, because I cannot see that we can ever really eradicate the need for it.
Do I think that all men are bastards and should pay child support whether they wanted the kid or not? Well I'm still undecided about that. Well not about the all men are bastards! I know they aren't.
My dad didn't pay it, I don't hate him for it, but I think my life would have been a lot better if he did. Can I change that now? Nope. It is what it is.
Do I think he should have gone to jail for it? Absolutely not! Do I think he should have paid it? Yep! Absolutely! But then hindsight is a wonderful thing.
In hindsight I believe that my Mum should have aborted me and never married my Dad, had my brother or got divorced either. But they did what they did. And here I am. And I see this kind of situation happening all the time.
People make choices, good and bad choices and society tries to keep up with those choices by writing laws to resolve conflict in an equatible fashion. Sometimes the law is fair and equitable and sometimes it's not. BUT people still know the law as it stands. And they still need to take responsibility for their choices. And they are still going to make mistakes and unfortunately suffer the consequences of those mistakes. That's life.
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Now why is it the man who doesn't want the child labled as unloving, yet the woman who kills her unborn child via abortion is still a loving individual?
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
Pro-life by choice.
Well, lets see...I never killed any of my unborn children. I wanted all the children I have concieved and have raised them with great parenting skills because I am a responsible individual and was educated on such things as reproduction and morals. My life is pretty good. I have a clean conscience and I never have to second guess my choices. Seems to me this equation works pretty well. I am confident that I am an upstanding member of society and that no one could ever accuse me of violence, disregard or selfishness.
As for the "some people" you mention in your list, just because they don't have it together doesn't mean that an innocent child should die for it.
Here's an idea. How about if a woman gets pregnant by "accident" (rolls eyes) she steps up to the plate and actually parents and supports the child she allowed to be concieved. Sounds pretty reasonable to me.
If she isnt stable enough to do so, then adoption is still always an option.
As for the woman who was raped and concieved, these instances are considerably less than the woman who simply doesnt want her child. The argument is for the later. The rape victim could also choose to keep the child. After all it is her flesh and blood too. She could also choose to place the child for adoption.
I have to wonder...what do your own living children think of you and of the siblings they have lost and will never get to know?
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
Pro-life by choice.
Forcing people to have children when they don't want them is showing no regard for the child's life once it's born, where it can be put into situations such as poverty, neglect, and abuse. I'm going with the fetus not suffering during an abortion over a child forced into a life full of painful memories.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Don't see me labelling anybody anything here.
Guess if you live with labels that might be how you see it, but it's certainly not how I view things.
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Thank you.
Eloquently put.
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Oh, you're right .... the world will be a much better place when more people who "don't have it together" become parents :rolleyes:
Here's another idea. How about if everyone decides for themselves when a new life begins, rather than being bound by Juberoo's beliefs, and makes their personal decisions accordingly.
Adoption is sometimes a viable option. I've never heard anyone suggest that it isn't.
Easy enough for you to say.
My children (both now adults) don't think of lost siblings because they don't have any. They both understand the fetal development process and they don't believe in the supernatural, so they quite naturally don't think that conception is anything other than one step in the endless continuity of life. I'm confident that if you asked them, they would say that their own lives have been dramatically better in many ways because they were not born to a mother who was forced against her will to bear a rapist's child at the age of 17.
have you ever been the victim of rape? short of murder and torture, it is the most heinous crime that can be perpetrated against another person, man or woman. it is a crime of absolute power against a victim weaker than the rapist. sure some women are strong enough to give birth and even raise the child of their rapist. but there are others who have enough trouble dealing with what happened to them, let alone the added 'bonus' of a constant reminder of the violence they've been subjected to.
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What about girls who take the morning after pill? you cant prove they are pregnant but ive heard arguments that say its on par with abortion because you eliminate the possibility of a pregancy. If thats the case, anyone who has used contraception could be jailed. if you're going to be pro life, dont pick and choose the lives you protect eh?
Where sex is consensual:
i think women and men have the duty to absolutely insist on contraception.
Women:STDS. Because there is always the chance you alone will carry the can for an unwanted pregnancy, protect yourself in the first place. If contraception fails, as it does occasionally, take the morning after pill. If that doesnt work, abortion is one of the options available, depending on your circumstances at that time. What guys have to remember is, they can be as supportive as they can be during pregnancy, but can still walk away from the child and the mother. The CSA doesnt do much.
Men: Because you dont want to become a father, because some girls are bitches and tell you they are on the pill but arent, because of STDs Because you dont want the decision to bring your child into the world to be taken out of your hands.
Bringing new life into the world is one of the biggest things people do. shouldnt they have the choice to do so in the best way they possibly can? Do you want to jail parents who dont love or want their kids, who regret the moment they set eyes on the mother/father of their child? Being pro choice protects conservative family values...does it not?
pro lifers need to understand that no woman goes into an abortion lightly and that forcing them to have an unwanted child is evil.
As for the people who say, have the baby and give it up for adoption. As I woman i know that carrying a child in my womb for 9 months and giving birth to it will want to ensure that it will stay by my side, that's nature. I think adoption is harder than abortion, for both child and mother... thats just from my life experiences. Its not all as rosy as the pro lifers pretend it is...
people who are pregnant due to rape are victims and do not need to be made to feel like a criminal for getting rid of every trace of that experience.
rapists should have their balls cut off.
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
Pro-life by choice.
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
Pro-life by choice.