I wonder though, the only way it could be punished is if the suicide was unsuccessful. I know that unsuccessful attempts land a person in the psychiatric ward of a hospital where they undergo treatment.
Perhaps nothing should be illegal, then people might get some help.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I wonder though, the only way it could be punished is if the suicide was unsuccessful. I know that unsuccessful attempts land a person in the psychiatric ward of a hospital where they undergo treatment.
Perhaps nothing should be illegal, then people might get some help.
Your heirs can be punished. Many life insurance policies won't pay in the case of a suicide.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
Do you know what it's like to commit suicide? I'm sure none of these lawmakers did. But that's not how the law works.
"yea, I killed her man... but you don't know what it's like!"
It's true, I agree with Darrow's ideal system, but not even you would agree with that. Your view of this is entirely situational. We are discussing here the law.
i wasn't speaking of suicide specifically when i mentioned hypotheticals and not knowing until you're personally in whatever situation ryan.
and just like me stand on abortion, i feel suicide is no ones business but the person themself.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
i wasn't speaking of suicide specifically when i mentioned hypotheticals and not knowing until you're personally in whatever situation ryan.
and just like me stand on abortion, i feel suicide is no ones business but the person themself.
Personally, I know what it's like to want to kill myself, and I doubt I'd let someone do it for any old reason.
It's true you can't know phenomenologically what it's like without being in the situation. Likewise, you can't say what you would do if you aren't doing it. You may have been pregnant before and claim what you would do next time, but if and when that time comes your actions could be completely different.
I don't think that argument is going to fly in any debate.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Personally, I know what it's like to want to kill myself, and I doubt I'd let someone do it for any old reason.
It's true you can't know phenomenologically what it's like without being in the situation. Likewise, you can't say what you would do if you aren't doing it. You may have been pregnant before and claim what you would do next time, but if and when that time comes your actions could be completely different.
I don't think that argument is going to fly in any debate.
the argument that until you are personally in a situation you don't know how'd you react? that argument?
you know ryan, where i am in my life right now both physically and psychologically, and having been pregnant before, i do know what decision i would make if i was to become pregnant, now.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
the argument that until you are personally in a situation you don't know how'd you react? that argument?
you know ryan, where i am in my life right now both physically and psychologically, and having been pregnant before, i do know what decision i would make if i was to become pregnant, now.
the argument that until you are personally in a situation you don't know how'd you react? that argument?
you know ryan, where i am in my life right now both physically and psychologically, and having been pregnant before, i do know what decision i would make if i was to become pregnant, now.
Well there is only one way to find out if that's true. Which makes it difficult for me to accept it as a valid point. I'm not even sure how it pertains to the topic. We've sort of trailed off.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Well there is only one way to find out if that's true. Which makes it difficult for me to accept it as a valid point. I'm not even sure how it pertains to the topic. We've sort of trailed off.
and herein lies the difficulty. i'm telling you what i would do if faced with a situation ive been in before. i do so knowing the decisions i made before and knowing how those decisions impacted upon my life. for me, that is the truth.
and which argument was it that wasn't gonna fly?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
According to JAMA (obviously most of you wont have membership to these magazines, you can probably access the articles in a medical library) brain waves are known to begin around 40 days after conception. See article "LIFE or DEATH by EEC" H. Hamlin.
According to the NEJM brain function is "reliably present" in the 6th. week of development. See article "Development of the fetal brain" J. Goldenring.
Common practice now is to determine death (as was already pointed out on this board) with the absence of brain waves or brain death. It is logical then to determine life with the presence of brain waves or brain activity.
Although some of us determine life with the moment of conception.
Makes much more sense, to live in the present tense.
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
If only we could test for consciousness. Maybe Koch will help us out in the next few years.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
According to JAMA (obviously most of you wont have membership to these magazines, you can probably access the articles in a medical library) brain waves are known to begin around 40 days after conception. See article "LIFE or DEATH by EEC" H. Hamlin.
According to the NEJM brain function is "reliably present" in the 6th. week of development. See article "Development of the fetal brain" J. Goldenring.
Common practice now is to determine death (as was already pointed out on this board) with the absence of brain waves or brain death. It is logical then to determine life with the presence of brain waves or brain activity.
Although some of us determine life with the moment of conception.
Ha! You accuse me of presenting "outdated" research when I bring up something from the 80's, and THIS is the best you can do? A speech from 1964 and a letter from 1982? No research at all, just a couple of very old opinion pieces that weren't subject to any sort of peer review, and where abortion wasn't even the topic of either speaker.
Ha! You accuse me of presenting "outdated" research when I bring up something from the 80's, and THIS is the best you can do? A speech from 1964 and a letter from 1982? No research at all, just a couple of very old opinion pieces that weren't subject to any sort of peer review, and where abortion wasn't even the topic of either speaker.
Margaret Sykes...the writter of your article...has absolutely no medical background whatsoever. I challenge you to present any "updated" actual medical material that disproves the existance of brain development in the first trimester.
Makes much more sense, to live in the present tense.
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
As will be detailed below, the behavior of the fetus and newborn is likely a reflection of reflexive brainstem activities which are produced in the absence of forebrain-mediated affective or cognitive processing, i.e. thinking, reasoning, understanding, or true emotionality (Joseph, 1996a, 1999; Levene, 1993; Sroufe, 1996). It is the much slower to develop forebrain which generates higher order cognitive activity and purposeful behaviors, and which is responsible for the expression and experience of true emotions including pleasure, rage, fear and joy and the desire for social-emotional contact (Joseph, 1992, 1996ab, 1999; MacLean, 1990)
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
At birth and for the ensuing weeks, the forebrain is so immature that its influences are limited to signaling distress in reaction to hunger or thirst; a function of the immature hypothalamus (Joseph, 1982, 1992, 1999) in conjunction with the midbrain periaqueductal gray (e.g. Larson, Yajima, & Ko, 1994; Zhang, Davis, Bandler, & Carrive, 1994). Although various limbic nuclei become functionally mature over the course of the first several postnatal months and years (Benes, 1994; Joseph, 1992, 1999), the neocortex and lobes of the brain take well over seven, ten, and even thirty years to fully develop and myelinate (Blinkov & Glezer, 1968; Conel, 1939, 1941; Flechsig, 1901; Huttenlocher, 1990; Yakovlev & Lecours, 1967).
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
At birth and for the ensuing weeks, the forebrain is so immature that its influences are limited to signaling distress in reaction to hunger or thirst; a function of the immature hypothalamus (Joseph, 1982, 1992, 1999) in conjunction with the midbrain periaqueductal gray (e.g. Larson, Yajima, & Ko, 1994; Zhang, Davis, Bandler, & Carrive, 1994). Although various limbic nuclei become functionally mature over the course of the first several postnatal months and years (Benes, 1994; Joseph, 1992, 1999), the neocortex and lobes of the brain take well over seven, ten, and even thirty years to fully develop and myelinate (Blinkov & Glezer, 1968; Conel, 1939, 1941; Flechsig, 1901; Huttenlocher, 1990; Yakovlev & Lecours, 1967).
By your reasoning then Ahnimus...since a humans brain is "immature" even in infancy, it could be aborted/killed up until it is "fully developed" in its 30's.
Makes much more sense, to live in the present tense.
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
By your reasoning then Ahnimus...since a humans brain is "immature" even in infancy, it could be aborted/killed up until it is "fully developed" in its 30's.
I'm just saying that it's a complicated issue that requires a moral value judgement. When it comes to moral values, they are subjective.
I don't see a problem with 1st trimester abortions. I do see a problem with 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions. Whereas, others won't see a problem with that. And others won't see a problem with terminating a 30 year old life.
Where do we as a collective stand on the issue? I guess that depends on what country you live in. If you want to base your morals on religion, then that's fine for you. But that should not apply to everyone. Getting into fetal development is a lot more complicated.
This is why I am pro-choice, because I can't expect others to share my morals. In-fact, I know they won't.
This issue has been socially polarized, few of us stand in the middle (with the law). Most either believe the "soul" enters the form at conception, like Jlew24asu or CorporateWhore, while others like Catefrances contest that it's her body and she can do whatever she wants, whenever she wants.
I personally feel, fetal development should be viewed objectively and a liberal window of opportunity for abortion made available by law. Which is exactly what it is like in the United States of America and in Canada. I agree with it.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Margaret Sykes...the writter of your article...has absolutely no medical background whatsoever. I challenge you to present any "updated" actual medical material that disproves the existance of brain development in the first trimester.
A medical background is not necessary to discern that a paper presents a 43 year-old opinion, rather than original (and preferably modern) peer-reviewed research that actually proves something.
Ms. Sykes was kind enough, however, to refer us to a study published the the NEJM, which states, "Functional maturity of the cerebral cortex is suggested by fetal and neonatal electroencephalographic patterns...First, intermittent electroencephalograpic bursts in both cerebral hemispheres are first seen at 20 weeks gestation; they become sustained at 22 weeks and bilaterally synchronous at 26 to 27 weeks." http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/anand/
I never set out to disprove brain development in the first trimester. Of course it takes place, at a very rudimentary level. My initial point was that without a fully functioning cerebral cortex and central nervous system, the fetus cannot be a "person" in any sense. It cannot have developed a personality, it cannot feel pain, it is not aware that it exists.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
Ugly? Seriously? Name one republican woman thats hotter than Angelina Jolie or Scarlet Johansen. Not to mention people like Brad Pitt and Ben Afleck and even Barack Obama on the other gender. Shit, name one hot republican celebrity period. Have you ever been to Portland, Seattle, LA or New York City? There are shitloads of hot chicks, ask them who they vote for. If you want to talk shit about us liberals thats fine, but we're much more attractive on average.
as much as i'd like to refrain from judging appearances, i must say portland does have the most attractive women around . and of course new york city has something for everyone. and they're all blue, blue, blue.
if you wanna be a friend of mine
cross the river to the eastside
A medical background is not necessary to discern that a paper presents a 43 year-old opinion, rather than original (and preferably modern) peer-reviewed research that actually proves something.
Ms. Sykes was kind enough, however, to refer us to a study published the the NEJM, which states, "Functional maturity of the cerebral cortex is suggested by fetal and neonatal electroencephalographic patterns...First, intermittent electroencephalograpic bursts in both cerebral hemispheres are first seen at 20 weeks gestation; they become sustained at 22 weeks and bilaterally synchronous at 26 to 27 weeks." http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/anand/
I never set out to disprove brain development in the first trimester. Of course it takes place, at a very rudimentary level. My initial point was that without a fully functioning cerebral cortex and central nervous system, the fetus cannot be a "person" in any sense. It cannot have developed a personality, it cannot feel pain, it is not aware that it exists.
I'm just wondering about this mom, because don't most abortions happen in the first 6-8 weeks anyway? In which case that would be just in time for what Juberoo is saying and well within the time limit of what you are saying?
Comments
I wonder though, the only way it could be punished is if the suicide was unsuccessful. I know that unsuccessful attempts land a person in the psychiatric ward of a hospital where they undergo treatment.
Perhaps nothing should be illegal, then people might get some help.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
i wasn't speaking of suicide specifically when i mentioned hypotheticals and not knowing until you're personally in whatever situation ryan.
and just like me stand on abortion, i feel suicide is no ones business but the person themself.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Personally, I know what it's like to want to kill myself, and I doubt I'd let someone do it for any old reason.
It's true you can't know phenomenologically what it's like without being in the situation. Likewise, you can't say what you would do if you aren't doing it. You may have been pregnant before and claim what you would do next time, but if and when that time comes your actions could be completely different.
I don't think that argument is going to fly in any debate.
the argument that until you are personally in a situation you don't know how'd you react? that argument?
you know ryan, where i am in my life right now both physically and psychologically, and having been pregnant before, i do know what decision i would make if i was to become pregnant, now.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
tie his dick in a knot?
angels share laughter
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Well there is only one way to find out if that's true. Which makes it difficult for me to accept it as a valid point. I'm not even sure how it pertains to the topic. We've sort of trailed off.
and herein lies the difficulty. i'm telling you what i would do if faced with a situation ive been in before. i do so knowing the decisions i made before and knowing how those decisions impacted upon my life. for me, that is the truth.
and which argument was it that wasn't gonna fly?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
According to the NEJM brain function is "reliably present" in the 6th. week of development. See article "Development of the fetal brain" J. Goldenring.
Common practice now is to determine death (as was already pointed out on this board) with the absence of brain waves or brain death. It is logical then to determine life with the presence of brain waves or brain activity.
Although some of us determine life with the moment of conception.
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
Pro-life by choice.
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
Pro-life by choice.
I'd abort that
If only we could test for consciousness. Maybe Koch will help us out in the next few years.
http://eileen.250x.com/Main/Einstein/Brain_Waves.htm
Margaret Sykes...the writter of your article...has absolutely no medical background whatsoever. I challenge you to present any "updated" actual medical material that disproves the existance of brain development in the first trimester.
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
Pro-life by choice.
http://brainmind.com/FetalBrainDevelopment.html
By your reasoning then Ahnimus...since a humans brain is "immature" even in infancy, it could be aborted/killed up until it is "fully developed" in its 30's.
A truly liberal person is conservative when necessary.
Pro-life by choice.
I'm just saying that it's a complicated issue that requires a moral value judgement. When it comes to moral values, they are subjective.
I don't see a problem with 1st trimester abortions. I do see a problem with 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions. Whereas, others won't see a problem with that. And others won't see a problem with terminating a 30 year old life.
Where do we as a collective stand on the issue? I guess that depends on what country you live in. If you want to base your morals on religion, then that's fine for you. But that should not apply to everyone. Getting into fetal development is a lot more complicated.
This is why I am pro-choice, because I can't expect others to share my morals. In-fact, I know they won't.
This issue has been socially polarized, few of us stand in the middle (with the law). Most either believe the "soul" enters the form at conception, like Jlew24asu or CorporateWhore, while others like Catefrances contest that it's her body and she can do whatever she wants, whenever she wants.
I personally feel, fetal development should be viewed objectively and a liberal window of opportunity for abortion made available by law. Which is exactly what it is like in the United States of America and in Canada. I agree with it.
Ms. Sykes was kind enough, however, to refer us to a study published the the NEJM, which states, "Functional maturity of the cerebral cortex is suggested by fetal and neonatal electroencephalographic patterns...First, intermittent electroencephalograpic bursts in both cerebral hemispheres are first seen at 20 weeks gestation; they become sustained at 22 weeks and bilaterally synchronous at 26 to 27 weeks." http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/anand/
I never set out to disprove brain development in the first trimester. Of course it takes place, at a very rudimentary level. My initial point was that without a fully functioning cerebral cortex and central nervous system, the fetus cannot be a "person" in any sense. It cannot have developed a personality, it cannot feel pain, it is not aware that it exists.
as much as i'd like to refrain from judging appearances, i must say portland does have the most attractive women around
cross the river to the eastside
I'm just wondering about this mom, because don't most abortions happen in the first 6-8 weeks anyway? In which case that would be just in time for what Juberoo is saying and well within the time limit of what you are saying?
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift