But your evidence takes a belief that it is factual.
You can tell me that your thermometer tells you it's 33 degrees celcius outside. It takes belief that the thermometer is right even though it is a tool of science. It takes belief that we even have a true understanding of heat and science to think that even a properly calibrated thermometer is the way to measure temperature. All your evidence takes just as much belief as any of my beliefs. I'm just not afraid to acknowledge them as beliefs. I don't try to quell any fears I may have by making our science to be omnipotent.
Relatively speaking, science is the truth.
I understand where you are coming from, and I think it's an emotionally attractive view of reality, but it's the least credible.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I think this is a full of shit attitude, especially if you are in favor of women receiving child support.
Fine, you control your body. No one can force you to carry a baby to term. Let's accord men this same equality. No one can control their body. Men make money by performing an activity (i.e. using their body), taking money from a man n the form of child support is forcing him to use his body in a manner he may not wish.
Women are offered a legal ability to walk away from a pregnancy, so should every father.
too bad. it's my body, no one else's. men are so busy screwing the world with their power plays and war games that they can't fathom a situation where they lack control. well boohoo. you don't want to procreate then don't fuck. it's as simple as that. and if you do then be aware that the result is pregnancy, wanted and unwanted.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
too bad. it's my body, no one else's. men are so busy screwing the world with their power plays and war games that they can't fathom a situation where they lack control. well boohoo. you don't want to procreate then don't fuck. it's as simple as that. and if you do then be aware that the result is pregnancy, wanted and unwanted.
That sounds like a pro-life statement.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Deterministically speaking the truth is the truth. Science is just what people make it.
Not exactly. Any scientific literature I've read makes points for and against the theories within it. Science is far more objective and collaberative than any other train of thought. Its no contest.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I'm glad. Of course you could have made me feel like a real shmuck and gone into tears and called me a bastard because you've been trying to have kids for years but can't.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
it's a common sense statement ryan. it's also a choice thing. sex can equal offspring. there's a chance. do you take that chance, hoping nothing happens but you getting off? but when it comes to issues about one's own body, i'm pro-me.
my body's nobody's body but mine. i believe the saying goes.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Science is far more objective and collaberative than any other train of thought.
This statement has absolutely nothing to do with science being able to come even remotely close to truth. Realistically science is a guess. In fact it proves over and over again it is everything but the truth.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
This statement has absolutely nothing to do with science being able to come even remotely close to truth. Realistically science is a guess. In fact it proves over and over again it is everything but the truth.
It sounds like you gave up on science. It comes pretty damn close if you put your mind to it.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
it's a common sense statement ryan. it's also a choice thing. sex can equal offspring. there's a chance. do you take that chance, hoping nothing happens but you getting off? but when it comes to issues about one's own body, i'm pro-me.
my body's nobody's body but mine. i believe the saying goes.
So...
A) Woman has sex with man, gets pregnant and is entitled to an abortion Man has sex with woman, woman gets pregnant and is awarded no choices about the fate of the fetus or his financial stability
Does that about sum it up?
The woman chooses what to do with her body after the sex, but the man's fate is totally dependent on the woman's freedom at that point? The statemtent you made could easily apply to women "You chose to have sex and get pregnant, now you must have the child." or the freedom of one's own body could be applied to the man "I did not choose to impregnate her, only to have sex, I did not choose the fate of the fetus either."
Don't get me wrong, I see the pro-choice arguments as solid and I am not against abortion. I just think you have a bit of a double-standard going on there.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
A) Woman has sex with man, gets pregnant and is entitled to an abortion Man has sex with woman, woman gets pregnant and is awarded no choices about the fate of the fetus or his financial stability
Does that about sum it up?
The woman chooses what to do with her body after the sex, but the man's fate is totally dependent on the woman's freedom at that point? The statemtent you made could easily apply to women "You chose to have sex and get pregnant, now you must have the child." or the freedom of one's own body could be applied to the man "I did not choose to impregnate her, only to have sex, I did not choose the fate of the fetus either."
Don't get me wrong, I see the pro-choice arguments as solid and I am not against abortion. I just think you have a bit of a double-standard going on there.
there's no double standard. it's my body. but just the same as men can choose to have sex or not, so too can women make this decision. however, women in the great scheme of things are in the driver's seat with this one. but without the petrol she ain't going anywhere.
i also think that guys are not quite getting what it's like to know there's a life growing inside you. relying on you for its very existence. taking from your body what it needs to survive. it's a hell of a thing to be pregnant and you seriously have no idea if you've never been pregnant. i'm not trying to polarise men and women, it's just fact. sure men can empathise to an extent. it's a scary thing. it's a joyous thing. it takes all your energy to deal and i mean physically, emotionally and psychologically. for the majority of woman it is not a decision to be made casually.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
there's no double standard. it's my body. but just the same as men can choose to have sex or not, so too can women make this decision. however, women in the great scheme of things are in the driver's seat with this one. but without the petrol she ain't going anywhere.
i also think that guys are not quite getting what it's like to know there's a life growing inside you. relying on you for its very existence. taking from your body what it needs to survive. it's a hell of a thing to be pregnant and you seriously have no idea if you've never been pregnant. i'm not trying to polarise men and women, it's just fact. sure men can empathise to an extent. it's a scary thing. it's a joyous thing. it takes all your energy to deal and i mean physically, emotionally and psychologically. for the majority of woman it is not a decision to be made casually.
I got that, but you are saying that if a man risks pregnancy by having sex with a woman, then they should just deal with the consequences of the woman's decisions thereafter, whereas the woman can make the choice to abort and absolve herself and the male of responsibility, but if she chooses to keep it, then the man must... what? pay support? how is this not a double-standard?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
or the freedom of one's own body could be applied to the man "I did not choose to impregnate her, only to have sex,...
the function of sex is to procreate. we all know that. it's nature.
you shoot your seed inside a woman, the chance of a pregnancy is always a reality. that's a hell of a risk to take, don't you think?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
the function of sex is to procreate. we all know that. it's nature.
you shoot your seed inside a woman, the chance of a pregnancy is always a reality. that's a hell of a risk to take, don't you think?
Exactly, likewise, if you accept someone else's seed then you are taking the same chance. And unless you accept the same level of choice as you are affording them, then it's a double-standard based on the same exact act.
On one note you say "It's my body, I chose to have sex and I can choose to abort" on the other you say "It's your body, you chose to have sex and you have no choice". The act is the same whether the participant is male or female, but you want the consequences to be different. Biologically the consequences of an unwanted pregnancy are stronger for the woman, but you are trying to reverse this by giving the woman the choice of abortion to avoid paying/raising the child, but you want to deprive men of walking away, and bind them to the decision made by the woman.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I got that, but you are saying that if a man risks pregnancy by having sex with a woman, then they should just deal with the consequences of the woman's decisions thereafter, whereas the woman can make the choice to abort and absolve herself and the male of responsibility, but if she chooses to keep it, then the man must... what? pay support? how is this not a double-standard?
men can just walk away for all i care. i'm taking responsibility for MY decisions, no one else's. quite frankly i think what women need to do is take responsibilty for the lives they are responsible for creating. yes, i know it takes two to make a baby, but honestly we know what men are like, how can it be a surprise when they say you're on your own sister. how can it be a revelation when they balk at paying maintainance for a child? men and women are not the same. no matter how much we try and fool ourselves.
personally it makes me laugh that the problem we are seeing here is one that involves money. it seems to me to be a reflection of what our society values most in this life. you want to screw(metaphorically) with a guy then go after his money. there seems to be nothing worse that to garnish someone's wages for something we(women) think should be a given. why wouldn't a man want to contribute to the well being of his child? as i said before men and women are just different.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
men can just walk away for all i care. i'm taking responsibility for MY decisions, no one else's. quite frankly i think what women need to do is take responsibilty for the lives they are responsible for creating. yes, i know it takes two to make a baby, but honestly we know what men are like, how can it be a surprise when they say you're on your own sister. how can it be a revelation when they balk at paying maintainance for a child? men and women are not the same. no matter how much we try and fool ourselves.
personally it makes me laugh that the problem we are seeing here is one that involves money. it seems to me to be a reflection of what our society values most in this life. you want to screw(metaphorically) with a guy then go after his money. there seems to be nothing worse that to garnish someone's wages for something we(women) think should be a given. why wouldn't a man want to contribute to the well being of his child? as i said before men and women are just different.
Hey, if you are pro-life, then your pro-support-payment stance makes a lot of sense. But if you advocate pro-choice, then how would it make sense?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Exactly, likewise, if you accept someone else's seed then you are taking the same chance. And unless you accept the same level of choice as you are affording them, then it's a double-standard based on the same exact act.
On one note you say "It's my body, I chose to have sex and I can choose to abort" on the other you say "It's your body, you chose to have sex and you have no choice". The act is the same whether the participant is male or female, but you want the consequences to be different. Biologically the consequences of an unwanted pregnancy are stronger for the woman, but you are trying to reverse this by giving the woman the choice of abortion to avoid paying/raising the child, but you want to deprive men of walking away, and bind them to the decision made by the woman.
you(men) do choose to have sex. that's your choice.
and yes the consequences are different cause the circumstances are different. you know if men could become pregnant i'd still be standing by the same argument.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Hey, if you are pro-life, then your pro-support-payment stance makes a lot of sense. But if you advocate pro-choice, then how would it make sense?
you know what ryan, women hold the power in this situation. guys are just gonna have to suck it up. but if you're fine with children growing up in poverty or without whatever privileges the father's support(in any form) would provide then whatc an i say? it doesn't look like we are going to come to a concensus on this issue.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Not sure if it's been mentioned in this thread, but what about this woman in the news who has allegedly killed 4 or 5 of her unborn children? I believe there is talk of charging her. Now if abortion is legal, how can they press charges against her?
Here's the quote I found:
"Freeman was charged with murder under a state law that allows murder prosecutions of those who cause the death of a fetus that may have been able to survive outside the womb."
That is one of the more hypocritical laws out there.
I'm surprised nobody really addressed this quote (above).
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by know1
---
"Not sure if it's been mentioned in this thread, but what about this woman in the news who has allegedly killed 4 or 5 of her unborn children? I believe there is talk of charging her. Now if abortion is legal, how can they press charges against her?
Here's the quote I found:
"Freeman was charged with murder under a state law that allows murder prosecutions of those who cause the death of a fetus that may have been able to survive outside the womb."
That is one of the more hypocritical laws out there. "
---
I'm surprised nobody really addressed this quote (above).
...
Awesome, bud... you just quoted yourself... just like Dwight Schrute.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
you're right ryan, it is a double standard. but as i said before women hold the power in this situation so the guys are just gonna have to suck it up.
I'm actually looking at the effects of impoverishment on child development and it's not very good. But that is besides the point.
"women hold the power"
Let's look at this from natures perspective, without laws.
The male and female have sex, the woman is pregnant, the guy fucks of or sticks around, it's entirely his choice and in that sense he holds the 'power'. At least the power to choose his own actions.
Enter the law, the law says this is wrong, and the women should be in charge of the men's actions, while maintaining their own freedom.
So, yes, women have the power, by law, not because it's the natural course. But because of some seriously bias and ridiculous laws that have been passed.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I'm surprised nobody really addressed this quote (above).
I think abortion of actual fetuses is quite rare, or should be. The term fetus is used far too loosely.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I'm actually looking at the effects of impoverishment on child development and it's not very good. But that is besides the point.
"women hold the power"
Let's look at this from natures perspective, without laws.
The male and female have sex, the woman is pregnant, the guy fucks of or sticks around, it's entirely his choice and in that sense he holds the 'power'. At least the power to choose his own actions.
Enter the law, the law says this is wrong, and the women should be in charge of the men's actions, while maintaining their own freedom.
So, yes, women have the power, by law, not because it's the natural course. But because of some seriously bias and ridiculous laws that have been passed.
Ryan, I'm confused by this. How is it biased against men if we ultimately accept that people have a right to do what they will with their own body?
If you say that it's ok for a guy to screw without a condom and then leave if he chooses then you have to say that if his screwing a woman resulted in her pregnancy then she has the right to "leave" the situation also. As far as I can see both parties have rights and responsibilities they just come at different times in the equation.
I don't know I'm just reading this as it's ok for a guy to scatter his sperm wherever he wants and that if that then results in him "making a mess" so to speak in someone elses body then they have no right to clean up that mess.
There's nothing "powerful" about abortion. It is what it is.
But your evidence takes a belief that it is factual.
You can tell me that your thermometer tells you it's 33 degrees celcius outside. It takes belief that the thermometer is right even though it is a tool of science. It takes belief that we even have a true understanding of heat and science to think that even a properly calibrated thermometer is the way to measure temperature. All your evidence takes just as much belief as any of my beliefs. I'm just not afraid to acknowledge them as beliefs. I don't try to quell any fears I may have by making our science to be omnipotent.
Science is as close to the truth as anything man has come up with so far. It stems from absolutes. Water freezes solid at a certain value, and holds true. It can even be cross referenced with various altitudes to perfection and 100% predictability. Everything is based upwards from solid and reliable reference. It's damn good, and it;s the best thing going for explaining this physical realm from every possible avenue, upwards from the table of all known elements.
It's a lot (lot) more than people realize. Especially in the US where the vast majority of people are very much science illiterate.
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Comments
Relatively speaking, science is the truth.
I understand where you are coming from, and I think it's an emotionally attractive view of reality, but it's the least credible.
too bad. it's my body, no one else's. men are so busy screwing the world with their power plays and war games that they can't fathom a situation where they lack control. well boohoo. you don't want to procreate then don't fuck. it's as simple as that. and if you do then be aware that the result is pregnancy, wanted and unwanted.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
That sounds like a pro-life statement.
Not exactly. Any scientific literature I've read makes points for and against the theories within it. Science is far more objective and collaberative than any other train of thought. Its no contest.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
LMAO!!
btw, i can use that anger for good as well as evil.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
it's a common sense statement ryan. it's also a choice thing. sex can equal offspring. there's a chance. do you take that chance, hoping nothing happens but you getting off? but when it comes to issues about one's own body, i'm pro-me.
my body's nobody's body but mine. i believe the saying goes.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
It sounds like you gave up on science. It comes pretty damn close if you put your mind to it.
So...
A) Woman has sex with man, gets pregnant and is entitled to an abortion
Does that about sum it up?
The woman chooses what to do with her body after the sex, but the man's fate is totally dependent on the woman's freedom at that point? The statemtent you made could easily apply to women "You chose to have sex and get pregnant, now you must have the child." or the freedom of one's own body could be applied to the man "I did not choose to impregnate her, only to have sex, I did not choose the fate of the fetus either."
Don't get me wrong, I see the pro-choice arguments as solid and I am not against abortion. I just think you have a bit of a double-standard going on there.
there's no double standard. it's my body. but just the same as men can choose to have sex or not, so too can women make this decision. however, women in the great scheme of things are in the driver's seat with this one. but without the petrol she ain't going anywhere.
i also think that guys are not quite getting what it's like to know there's a life growing inside you. relying on you for its very existence. taking from your body what it needs to survive. it's a hell of a thing to be pregnant and you seriously have no idea if you've never been pregnant. i'm not trying to polarise men and women, it's just fact. sure men can empathise to an extent. it's a scary thing. it's a joyous thing. it takes all your energy to deal and i mean physically, emotionally and psychologically. for the majority of woman it is not a decision to be made casually.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I got that, but you are saying that if a man risks pregnancy by having sex with a woman, then they should just deal with the consequences of the woman's decisions thereafter, whereas the woman can make the choice to abort and absolve herself and the male of responsibility, but if she chooses to keep it, then the man must... what? pay support? how is this not a double-standard?
the function of sex is to procreate. we all know that. it's nature.
you shoot your seed inside a woman, the chance of a pregnancy is always a reality. that's a hell of a risk to take, don't you think?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
Exactly, likewise, if you accept someone else's seed then you are taking the same chance. And unless you accept the same level of choice as you are affording them, then it's a double-standard based on the same exact act.
On one note you say "It's my body, I chose to have sex and I can choose to abort" on the other you say "It's your body, you chose to have sex and you have no choice". The act is the same whether the participant is male or female, but you want the consequences to be different. Biologically the consequences of an unwanted pregnancy are stronger for the woman, but you are trying to reverse this by giving the woman the choice of abortion to avoid paying/raising the child, but you want to deprive men of walking away, and bind them to the decision made by the woman.
men can just walk away for all i care. i'm taking responsibility for MY decisions, no one else's. quite frankly i think what women need to do is take responsibilty for the lives they are responsible for creating. yes, i know it takes two to make a baby, but honestly we know what men are like, how can it be a surprise when they say you're on your own sister. how can it be a revelation when they balk at paying maintainance for a child? men and women are not the same. no matter how much we try and fool ourselves.
personally it makes me laugh that the problem we are seeing here is one that involves money. it seems to me to be a reflection of what our society values most in this life. you want to screw(metaphorically) with a guy then go after his money. there seems to be nothing worse that to garnish someone's wages for something we(women) think should be a given. why wouldn't a man want to contribute to the well being of his child? as i said before men and women are just different.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Hey, if you are pro-life, then your pro-support-payment stance makes a lot of sense. But if you advocate pro-choice, then how would it make sense?
you(men) do choose to have sex. that's your choice.
and yes the consequences are different cause the circumstances are different. you know if men could become pregnant i'd still be standing by the same argument.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
you know what ryan, women hold the power in this situation. guys are just gonna have to suck it up. but if you're fine with children growing up in poverty or without whatever privileges the father's support(in any form) would provide then whatc an i say? it doesn't look like we are going to come to a concensus on this issue.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I'm surprised nobody really addressed this quote (above).
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I would have if I'd known the case you are speaking of.
Not heard anything about it here.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Awesome, bud... you just quoted yourself... just like Dwight Schrute.
Hail, Hail!!!
I'm actually looking at the effects of impoverishment on child development and it's not very good. But that is besides the point.
"women hold the power"
Let's look at this from natures perspective, without laws.
The male and female have sex, the woman is pregnant, the guy fucks of or sticks around, it's entirely his choice and in that sense he holds the 'power'. At least the power to choose his own actions.
Enter the law, the law says this is wrong, and the women should be in charge of the men's actions, while maintaining their own freedom.
So, yes, women have the power, by law, not because it's the natural course. But because of some seriously bias and ridiculous laws that have been passed.
I think abortion of actual fetuses is quite rare, or should be. The term fetus is used far too loosely.
Ryan, I'm confused by this. How is it biased against men if we ultimately accept that people have a right to do what they will with their own body?
If you say that it's ok for a guy to screw without a condom and then leave if he chooses then you have to say that if his screwing a woman resulted in her pregnancy then she has the right to "leave" the situation also. As far as I can see both parties have rights and responsibilities they just come at different times in the equation.
I don't know I'm just reading this as it's ok for a guy to scatter his sperm wherever he wants and that if that then results in him "making a mess" so to speak in someone elses body then they have no right to clean up that mess.
There's nothing "powerful" about abortion. It is what it is.
Maybe I'm misreading what you mean?
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Science is as close to the truth as anything man has come up with so far. It stems from absolutes. Water freezes solid at a certain value, and holds true. It can even be cross referenced with various altitudes to perfection and 100% predictability. Everything is based upwards from solid and reliable reference. It's damn good, and it;s the best thing going for explaining this physical realm from every possible avenue, upwards from the table of all known elements.
It's a lot (lot) more than people realize. Especially in the US where the vast majority of people are very much science illiterate.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
i'm talking base function not fringe benefits.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say