In 2003 the rate of violent crime involving a firearm was only about 7%.
Id bet that every single measly campus and barroom fist fight in counted in with the "violent crime" stats. Not very trustworthy.
As for me and guns...
eh.
I own quite a few, shotguns and rifles... but I would prefer to see an EXTENSIVE background check done on anyone before they are allowed to be purchased. And no more fucking same-day buys, thats just fuckin stupid.
I do have to differ with the Constitutional arguement that Charger used earlier - no way IN HELL did the framers of the Constitution mean for anyone and everyone to have a gun. A well regulated militia is the equal to each state having a National Guard... the states would be allowed to protect themselves. That's it. No more should be read into it.
THAT SAID, this came from a time when everyone needed guns, or that guns were a lot more needed -- as tools for the survival of your family. We've always been a gun culture and I suppose we always will be... it's as much a part of America as baseball or Super Sized fries.
Im a Liberal through and through - but Im also a gun owner and like nothing better than shooting the shit outta coffee cans (and other debris) with my 30-30 lever action... skeet shooting can be a blast as well. I dont want to take anyones guns away, but I wanna make sure that only responsible non-criminals have the access to them as much as possible.
Id bet that every single measly campus and barroom fist fight in counted in with the "violent crime" stats. Not very trustworthy.
Yeah, let's not trust official crime statistics from the FBI. That would be silly.
I would prefer to see an EXTENSIVE background check done on anyone before they are allowed to be purchased. And no more fucking same-day buys, thats just fuckin stupid.
I agree totally.
I do have to differ with the Constitutional arguement that Charger used earlier - no way IN HELL did the framers of the Constitution mean for anyone and everyone to have a gun. A well regulated militia is the equal to each state having a National Guard... the states would be allowed to protect themselves. That's it. No more should be read into it.
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,..."
This sets up the right of a state to defend itself. Including the right to defend itself from the Federal Government.
"...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
The right of the PEOPLE...PEOPLE to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. Not the right of the militia, to keep and bear arms, the PEOPLE!
Why do anti-gun people and anti-gun scholars have no problem with the wording of any other part of the Bill of Rights but they think the wording of the Second Amendment is vauge at best?
I think the founding fathers knew EXACTLY what they were doing when they wrote it.
...I wanna make sure that only responsible non-criminals have the access to them as much as possible.
As a far left leaning contributor to this message board, i have noticed that there seems to be an equal number of right leaning voices. Within the threads we seem to get caught into partisan discussion, each side stating their position over and over (myself a guilty party), which most of us already have an understanding of each sides position. The problem with this is that we are getting caught in a cycle of agreeing to disagree. On either side of these discussions there seems to be very intelligent, talented minds. I fell we need to find a common ground and help to affect a positive change in our resepctive communities and the global community. Quite frankly, we are achieving exactly what is desired by the elite that profit from our labor and hardships, we are engaging in endless partisan arguments, achieving little action for the better of humanity. I can confidently state that both sides want to achieve the same goals... peace, equality, living wage, just treatment for all, heal the sick, feed the poor, house the homeless, strong education for all, strong enviroment protection, etc... to leave a better world for our children and the future generations to come. The difference seems to be the application or approach to achieve these common goals. I do not think that even the farthest right leaning soul (on this board) wants war, famine, disease, etc... We are just viewing the world through different colored lenses. let us unite against the people that block this progress, that continue to exploit this planet and the human race for their immense gain. We must realise that we are pawns in a game, and that average folks like me and you are truly losing out. Please, let us use our brains (and hearts) to help one another bring about much needed change. please accept my extension of this olive branch from the left to the right! peace to all
"wont someone save the world" eV
I havent read the thread apart from first post, but I just felt like commenting on this by a little example. If, as you say, we should all be cheering on "progress" and work together to achieve this, it gets problematic. It's like standing in a huddle saying: "okay folks, we all know what needs to be done. We must further progress and the good cause. You all with me? Alright, go team!" And then all the players running in opposite directions getting nothing done, because one doesn't agree what the problems really are. Actually, the mental image of "go team" and *poof* each to his side brought a smile to my face
Anyway, continue with your discussion, of which I know nothing
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
As a far left leaning contributor to this message board, i have noticed that there seems to be an equal number of right leaning voices. Within the threads we seem to get caught into partisan discussion, each side stating their position over and over (myself a guilty party), which most of us already have an understanding of each sides position. The problem with this is that we are getting caught in a cycle of agreeing to disagree. On either side of these discussions there seems to be very intelligent, talented minds. I fell we need to find a common ground and help to affect a positive change in our resepctive communities and the global community. Quite frankly, we are achieving exactly what is desired by the elite that profit from our labor and hardships, we are engaging in endless partisan arguments, achieving little action for the better of humanity. I can confidently state that both sides want to achieve the same goals... peace, equality, living wage, just treatment for all, heal the sick, feed the poor, house the homeless, strong education for all, strong enviroment protection, etc... to leave a better world for our children and the future generations to come. The difference seems to be the application or approach to achieve these common goals. I do not think that even the farthest right leaning soul (on this board) wants war, famine, disease, etc... We are just viewing the world through different colored lenses. let us unite against the people that block this progress, that continue to exploit this planet and the human race for their immense gain. We must realise that we are pawns in a game, and that average folks like me and you are truly losing out. Please, let us use our brains (and hearts) to help one another bring about much needed change. please accept my extension of this olive branch from the left to the right! peace to all
No thanks. The Right Wing has spent the last 40 years at war with anyone that doesnt share their views, they've been at work at this since Goldwater lost.
This olive branch stuff is equal to the Dem Convention last fall - be above the fray, be positive. Then the GOP strolls out Zell Miller and Dick Cheney, the Swift Boat Liars, and they bash Kerry and Dems into pulp.
No thanks. There is an idealogical war in America. The Left has been getting its ass kicked, but is just now starting to put together the frame-work of a real body politic and getting a mechanism to spread it's message.
Now, Im all for real debate between the Liberal and Conservative schools of political theory, but in so far as the on going struggle for the soul of America -Our country is turning from a Republic to an Imperial State, from one founded on freedoms, to one ruled by fear -- no thanks, I will not go quietly.
It's game ON. In AMT and in real life. Game on.
I love you.
Sorry folks, but I have to agree with the Pastor. Treading lightly only leaves us liberals sinking in the quicksand. The pendulum has swung frighteningly far right; we need a strong, hard push back left just to get to the middle! The gloves are off.
Life is the riddle
Of which we're caught in the middle.
A couple of lucky ones
Tangled up in too much love
~cowboy junkies
Your heart's in the right place, my2hands, but unfortunately, it's exactly our liberal tendency towards wanting to make nice that gets exploited and shit on.
Life is the riddle
Of which we're caught in the middle.
A couple of lucky ones
Tangled up in too much love
~cowboy junkies
Your heart's in the right place, my2hands, but unfortunately, it's exactly our liberal tendency towards wanting to make nice that gets exploited and shit on.
thanks for the kind words... "blessed are the peace makers"
Great post. I agree with you on most points, but at the same point, you can't make changes to a problem when half the group doesn't think there's a problem... you know.
Well, the olive branch lasted until the second post in this thread.
thanks for the kind words... "blessed are the peace makers"
What a load of bullshit..you post a thread about an olive branch and then post another one about blood on our hands. You can keep your olive branch and I'm sure you know where I think you can store it at as well.
What a load of bullshit..you post a thread about an olive branch and then post another one about blood on our hands. You can keep your olive branch and I'm sure you know where I think you can store it at as well.
the bloody hands thread is an attempt by me to help bring the war to life, because i feel it is looked upon as some sort of video game or reality series, and we are ALL reponsible for it... just an attempt to help the righ tgrab that branch while it still exists
Posting about the blood doesn't mean she isn't being genuine. Just honest. Maybe a bit naive, sure, but again, I think her heart's in the right place. Whatever-- there's so much animosity on this board that any progress would be a fucking miracle.
Life is the riddle
Of which we're caught in the middle.
A couple of lucky ones
Tangled up in too much love
~cowboy junkies
Posting about the blood doesn't mean she isn't being genuine. Just honest. Maybe a bit naive, sure, but again, I think her heart's in the right place. Whatever-- there's so much animosity on this board that any progress would be a fucking miracle.
progress on the board may be tough, but Bush's 29% approval rating speaks volumes of the progress being made...most people with a brain can now see what is going on...what is amazing is that some still cant!
You're preachin' to the choir, girlfriend. I've made plenty of republican enemies here, using that exact same logic. Some folks just can't accept a change of course, even when their boat's clearly headed for the falls.
Life is the riddle
Of which we're caught in the middle.
A couple of lucky ones
Tangled up in too much love
~cowboy junkies
You're preachin' to the choir, girlfriend. I've made plenty of republican enemies here, using that exact same logic. Some folks just can't accept a change of course, even when their boat's clearly headed for the falls.
thats right boyfriend... i can see the cracks on the wall...
That doesnt mean I wont share some bread and beer with my looney Bushie Jammers. But Im done "playin nice" when it comes to politics.
Dems (of which Im not really one, I am a Liberal, thank you very much - a Liberal Utopian if you want exactitude) have run races like pussies since Nixon squashed the 60s. Dukakis, Mondale, Carter2, (gag) Kerry. No thanks. Al Gore (who I adore) and his fake-ass two minute kiss with his wife... we've run under many tents and done so with some out-dated code of ethics.
Meanwhile, back in reality, the GOoPers run under one-tent (thou shall not speak ill of fellow Republicans) and have hammered away their "message" through shrill and constant bleeting for 40 fuckin years.
And we'ze been getstin our asses kicked.
No more.
The time of neo-Liberalism is here (I hope). The message is (gasp) government, ran well, is a GOOD thing. Government ran very well is a GREAT thing. The environment is AT LEAST as important as the stock market. There is more to foreign policy than heavy-handed spending and even heavier handed imperial blustering.
No child left behind?
Fuck no.
No AMERICAN left behind. No gay, no Mexican, no woman, no poverty-enslaved African-American, no Christian, no Jew. No fucking American worker that wants a decent fuckin wage -- and protections from the Corporate Machine.
Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Hapiness. The Pursuit of Hapiness. The American Dream for anyone who wants to claim it. ANYONE. And this isnt about handouts, it's not about reckless social spending. But it IS about not letting ANYONE fall through the cracks. It IS about not just assuming that poverty and hopelessness are part of the deal.
Geezus, where did that come from? Anyway, Im not interested in olive branches.
The Bushies have bled our treasury. The Bushies have started a needless war that was based on lies. The Bushies have taken shot-after-shot at the Civil Liberties of all Americans. The Bushies are the money changers in the Temple that is the environment. The Bushies have brought about a political culture of cronyism and corruption not seen in the past 100 years.
I agree Paster JeffD, when a certain party has pushed the envelope so far in a certain direction, there is no middle ground any more. There is nothing to be conciliatory about. How do you "bend" on something like Bush's pre-emptive doctrine ? You don't, because it was a farce, as we all know. So fuck that noise.
And this terminal parting of the ways goes for the international relations as well. When the U.S. (and this current administration) decides its not going abide by trade policies or dispute mechanisms that the U.S. itself devised, then where do you go after that ? As far as I'm concerned the U.S. is a disaster right now.
I agree wholeheartedly, to no one's surprise. But the problem is that organizing Democrats is like herding cats. The very nature of the party- and I'll include Liberals and Greens, since they sure as hell don't belong on the other side- is that we're so diverse, we're so tolerant, we're so willing to consider all views, that we have a hard time forming a unified front. But you're absolutely right, we must. The time is long overdue, we can't continue to put up candidates who don't give a clear vision of what America can be, we need to get our shit together and take it back.
Life is the riddle
Of which we're caught in the middle.
A couple of lucky ones
Tangled up in too much love
~cowboy junkies
I - we're so tolerant, we're so willing to consider all views,
Are you fucking kidding me?? Practically the last two pages of posts of just this thread are about intolerance of others views.. or should I say republican's views. You (and that's a general "you") aren't tolerant or willing to consider any views that don't agree with yours.
"most people with a brain can now see what is going on...what is amazing is that some still cant!" --Yes, very "tolerant"
"Whatever-- there's so much animosity on this board that any progress would be a fucking miracle."
It's amazing that the ones complaining about animosity on the board are some of the ones that CREATE animosity!!!
Comments
Id bet that every single measly campus and barroom fist fight in counted in with the "violent crime" stats. Not very trustworthy.
As for me and guns...
eh.
I own quite a few, shotguns and rifles... but I would prefer to see an EXTENSIVE background check done on anyone before they are allowed to be purchased. And no more fucking same-day buys, thats just fuckin stupid.
I do have to differ with the Constitutional arguement that Charger used earlier - no way IN HELL did the framers of the Constitution mean for anyone and everyone to have a gun. A well regulated militia is the equal to each state having a National Guard... the states would be allowed to protect themselves. That's it. No more should be read into it.
THAT SAID, this came from a time when everyone needed guns, or that guns were a lot more needed -- as tools for the survival of your family. We've always been a gun culture and I suppose we always will be... it's as much a part of America as baseball or Super Sized fries.
Im a Liberal through and through - but Im also a gun owner and like nothing better than shooting the shit outta coffee cans (and other debris) with my 30-30 lever action... skeet shooting can be a blast as well. I dont want to take anyones guns away, but I wanna make sure that only responsible non-criminals have the access to them as much as possible.
You can also be killed with both.
Yeah, let's not trust official crime statistics from the FBI. That would be silly.
I agree totally.
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,..."
This sets up the right of a state to defend itself. Including the right to defend itself from the Federal Government.
"...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
The right of the PEOPLE...PEOPLE to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. Not the right of the militia, to keep and bear arms, the PEOPLE!
Why do anti-gun people and anti-gun scholars have no problem with the wording of any other part of the Bill of Rights but they think the wording of the Second Amendment is vauge at best?
I think the founding fathers knew EXACTLY what they were doing when they wrote it.
Again I agree totally with this statement.
I havent read the thread apart from first post, but I just felt like commenting on this by a little example. If, as you say, we should all be cheering on "progress" and work together to achieve this, it gets problematic. It's like standing in a huddle saying: "okay folks, we all know what needs to be done. We must further progress and the good cause. You all with me? Alright, go team!" And then all the players running in opposite directions getting nothing done, because one doesn't agree what the problems really are. Actually, the mental image of "go team" and *poof* each to his side brought a smile to my face
Anyway, continue with your discussion, of which I know nothing
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
bump becuase it needs to be
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
I love you.
Sorry folks, but I have to agree with the Pastor. Treading lightly only leaves us liberals sinking in the quicksand. The pendulum has swung frighteningly far right; we need a strong, hard push back left just to get to the middle! The gloves are off.
Of which we're caught in the middle.
A couple of lucky ones
Tangled up in too much love
~cowboy junkies
If it needed bumping someone other then the person who started the thread would have posted something more valuable then...bump.
i believe you are one of the cons i was referring to...
Of which we're caught in the middle.
A couple of lucky ones
Tangled up in too much love
~cowboy junkies
thanks for the kind words... "blessed are the peace makers"
Well, the olive branch lasted until the second post in this thread.
That's progress, I guess.
I didn't say that I LIKE it that way. Sadly, it's just the reality. Keep plugging away, there, though. Ya never know. Miracles MAY happen.
Of which we're caught in the middle.
A couple of lucky ones
Tangled up in too much love
~cowboy junkies
and yes, i do believe in miracle, cause i'm one
What a load of bullshit..you post a thread about an olive branch and then post another one about blood on our hands. You can keep your olive branch and I'm sure you know where I think you can store it at as well.
the bloody hands thread is an attempt by me to help bring the war to life, because i feel it is looked upon as some sort of video game or reality series, and we are ALL reponsible for it... just an attempt to help the righ tgrab that branch while it still exists
Of which we're caught in the middle.
A couple of lucky ones
Tangled up in too much love
~cowboy junkies
progress on the board may be tough, but Bush's 29% approval rating speaks volumes of the progress being made...most people with a brain can now see what is going on...what is amazing is that some still cant!
Of which we're caught in the middle.
A couple of lucky ones
Tangled up in too much love
~cowboy junkies
Thats because they think FEMA or Jesus is gonna come down and turn the water into candy and they'll be able to eat their way out of the trouble.
But I could be wrong about that one,
thats right boyfriend... i can see the cracks on the wall...
Of which we're caught in the middle.
A couple of lucky ones
Tangled up in too much love
~cowboy junkies
I aint interested.
That doesnt mean I wont share some bread and beer with my looney Bushie Jammers. But Im done "playin nice" when it comes to politics.
Dems (of which Im not really one, I am a Liberal, thank you very much - a Liberal Utopian if you want exactitude) have run races like pussies since Nixon squashed the 60s. Dukakis, Mondale, Carter2, (gag) Kerry. No thanks. Al Gore (who I adore) and his fake-ass two minute kiss with his wife... we've run under many tents and done so with some out-dated code of ethics.
Meanwhile, back in reality, the GOoPers run under one-tent (thou shall not speak ill of fellow Republicans) and have hammered away their "message" through shrill and constant bleeting for 40 fuckin years.
And we'ze been getstin our asses kicked.
No more.
The time of neo-Liberalism is here (I hope). The message is (gasp) government, ran well, is a GOOD thing. Government ran very well is a GREAT thing. The environment is AT LEAST as important as the stock market. There is more to foreign policy than heavy-handed spending and even heavier handed imperial blustering.
No child left behind?
Fuck no.
No AMERICAN left behind. No gay, no Mexican, no woman, no poverty-enslaved African-American, no Christian, no Jew. No fucking American worker that wants a decent fuckin wage -- and protections from the Corporate Machine.
Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Hapiness. The Pursuit of Hapiness. The American Dream for anyone who wants to claim it. ANYONE. And this isnt about handouts, it's not about reckless social spending. But it IS about not letting ANYONE fall through the cracks. It IS about not just assuming that poverty and hopelessness are part of the deal.
Geezus, where did that come from? Anyway, Im not interested in olive branches.
The Bushies have bled our treasury. The Bushies have started a needless war that was based on lies. The Bushies have taken shot-after-shot at the Civil Liberties of all Americans. The Bushies are the money changers in the Temple that is the environment. The Bushies have brought about a political culture of cronyism and corruption not seen in the past 100 years.
And, God willing, it ends in 2006.
And this terminal parting of the ways goes for the international relations as well. When the U.S. (and this current administration) decides its not going abide by trade policies or dispute mechanisms that the U.S. itself devised, then where do you go after that ? As far as I'm concerned the U.S. is a disaster right now.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
any ideas on how its gonna end?
The left still doesnt seem willing to go the next step,
I think we need some serious non violent protests in 06', on every level.
Of which we're caught in the middle.
A couple of lucky ones
Tangled up in too much love
~cowboy junkies
Are you fucking kidding me?? Practically the last two pages of posts of just this thread are about intolerance of others views.. or should I say republican's views. You (and that's a general "you") aren't tolerant or willing to consider any views that don't agree with yours.
"most people with a brain can now see what is going on...what is amazing is that some still cant!" --Yes, very "tolerant"
"Whatever-- there's so much animosity on this board that any progress would be a fucking miracle."
It's amazing that the ones complaining about animosity on the board are some of the ones that CREATE animosity!!!