Liberal olive branch extended to the right...

VictoryGin

muddy waters wrote:

Certainly not a government of the people, for the people and by the people.

Interesting you say that. I definitely agree; however, if you want evidence of how some don't agree (or just confuse things) check out Barroom Hero's post in the Sheehan thread.

John Budge

my2hands wrote:

heal the sick, feed the poor, house the homeless, ..., strong enviroment protection, etc...

Cons don't want these.

chopitdown

John Budge wrote:

Cons don't want these.

really? I'm a Con. I want those things. I'd prob disagree with the vehicle to do those things. But as it's been said before, that's where the difference is.

Staceb10

John Budge wrote:

Cons don't want these.

Yes, we do. We just have different ideas on how to accomplish it.

mammasan

John Budge wrote:

Cons don't want these.

We are trying to have a reasoned discussion here. if you have nothing to add then please move along.

MrBrian

John Budge wrote:

Cons don't want these.

I think its important to seperate conservatives from the neo conservatives, so going around saying con, is not quite accurate,

my2hands

Staceb10 wrote:

Yes, we do. We just have different ideas on how to accomplish it.

i understand that average american conservatives have these goals, the problem is that the elite conservatives actions show a much different story, and distort the view us liberals have of the average conservative... especially this current group of people in power...their actions are speaking volumes...and we liberals are lead to believe that the average joe conservative is on board with these actions such as dismantling enviromental protections, imminent domain, and equal rights (gay rights is the 21st century version of this attempt to set the masses out against each other on a relatively non-issue)... i hope i made my point ?

John Budge

Staceb10 wrote:

Yes, we do. We just have different ideas on how to accomplish it.

Oh, really? Well, let's hear 'em!

How about you give me a better way to find a cure for deadly diseases than stem cell research? How about a con actually say that there just might be a problem with global warming instead of just dismissing it as whiny liberal rhetoric? How about the cons stop whining about their precious tax dollars going to the welfare system? (Not all poor folks take advantage of the system.)

John Budge

MrBrian wrote:

I think its important to seperate conservatives from the neo conservatives, so going around saying con, is not quite accurate,

It's up to the cons to put the leash on the neo-cons. Or vice versa. Or who gives a crap? Talk about enemies to freedom. It ain't the terrorists.

Six7Six7

Can't we people in the middle just go throw all the Conservatives AND Liberals out of power and put some new (YOUNGER) people in there?

i really don't understand how an 80 year old can speak for ANYONE in this country except his own age group.

We need more 30 year olds in there. People who are NOT career politicans. People who know what the hell is going on, know what people think and feel, and then represent the REAL people when they vote.

Sorry elderly, but you had your chance in the last 50 years to change the country and you just fucked it up. Time for some new generations to give it a try.

Staceb10

John Budge wrote:

Oh, really? Well, let's hear 'em!

How about you give me a better way to find a cure for deadly diseases than stem cell research? How about a con actually say that there just might be a problem with global warming instead of just dismissing it as whiny liberal rhetoric? How about the cons stop whining about their precious tax dollars going to the welfare system? (Not all poor folks take advantage of the system.)

I don't have anything against stem cell research but why does it need public funding? Private stem cell research isn't banned like most people think.

There is a problem but how about we try to find a plan that takes into account countries like China...

Why can't we reform the system so that the people that truly need it can get it instead of people like ODB from the WUTang clan being able to pick up checks? Why can't we reform it to include some educational assistance so people can get training and not have to be kept on welfare indefinitely?

Pastor JeffD

my2hands wrote:

Yes, we do. We just have different ideas on how to accomplish it.quote]

Yeah, and Democrats on the Federal and State level have been calling for a raise in the minimum wage for a long time - or "worse" yet, a "living wage" to the cat-calls of 'SOCIALIST' by the vast majority on the Right.

The Patriot Act, the majority of Dems are for suspending it while it gets reviewed point-by-point, the majority of Republicans - just extend it - and EXPAND it.

The GOP wants the Private Sector to oversee our education, our environment, and our industrial regulation. Yeah, and the Private Sector just comes across as such a caring bunch - look at Enron, Wal-Mart, or Exxon. Great bunch of guys and gals*.



Also, you cant not say that you are against the corporate cronyism going on in the country and then say you are proud to be a Republican.

The GOP today IS the party of Corporate cronyism. Shit, it's the Corporate Party. Take a look at the soft money they take (it's about 70-30 in favor of the GOP) from mega-corporations, look at the bills they sponser, it's pretty easy to figure out.

By the way, I am in no-way defending the modern Democratic Party, they are enslaved by their own private interest masters. However, they are at least not happy to be enslaved by the corporations that truely run our "democracy".


*you might say "well that's better than a bloated government handling these things" to which Id say that government doesnt have to be bloated to ensure the welfare of the people and to regulate the industries -- you just have to balance the books, something Bush and his ilk are laughably unable to do.

Pastor JeffD

Staceb10 wrote:

I don't have anything against stem cell research but why does it need public funding? Private stem cell research isn't banned like most people think.

Why can't we reform the system so that the people that truly need it can get it instead of people like ODB from the WUTang clan being able to pick up checks? Why can't we reform it to include some educational assistance so people can get training and not have to be kept on welfare indefinitely?

Because the dollars arent there in Private research, not to the extent that is needed. Stem cell research could REVOLUTIONIZE medicine, it's the future, we either lead, follow, or get out of the way.

And we do have programs to get people educated -- Headstart, Pell Grants, all sorts of assistance - only problem is the GOP cuts the heart out of these programs every chance it gets (I have first hand knowledge of this - not myself but many friends).

And the welfare problem goes FAR beyond handing out checks and doing so wastefully. Shit, Id reckon that NAFTA (and other FTA) has done more harm to the working family (and our economy) than any amout of welfare paid out or welfare waste.

I must add, I am totally against welfare fraud - I think the penelties should be much harsher for people that fuck the system. However, I did read somewhere, a while ago, that it's cheaper for the government just to lose the money via fraud than it would be to oversee and correct the problem.

In the end, we need to get people OFF of welfare - true, but holding the minimum wage at 5.15, cutting after-school and educational programs, and letting ALL jobs be outsourced is NOT the way to do it.

Not by a long shot.

69charger

John Budge wrote:

Talk about enemies to freedom. It ain't the terrorists.

It's this kind of attitude is what makes us 'cons' believe you really do hate America. It ain't the terrorists...sheesh! You really need to watch the 9/11 documentary on the National Geographic Channel. It is you who needs to wake up.

Pastor JeffD

69charger wrote:

It's this kind of attitude is what makes us 'cons' believe you really do hate America. It ain't the terrorists...sheesh! You really need to watch the 9/11 documentary on the National Geographic Channel. It is you who needs to wake up.

Not to speak for anyone, but I think what he means is that freedom can be destroyed by more than one enemy in more ways than one.

In my opinion, the Patriot Act destorys our freedoms... or has the dangerous potential to do so. Bush's "free speech zones" certainly casts doubt upon our freedoms. Shit, the sorry ass state of our press and their control by their corporate masters aint too good for our freedom either. Neither is voting machines that can not be audited.

But, yeah, fuck the terrorists too. Just wish we'd go after the ones that carried out 9/11.

69charger

Pastor JeffD wrote:

Just wish we'd go after the ones that carried out 9/11.

We haven't already?

Yeah, we're in Iraq too, but we haven't stopped in Afgahnistan.

Pastor JeffD

C4Lukin wrote:

The right does not believe that it is ok for people to live in poverty, they just have a different solvency then the left. The problem is that the loudest voices are often the most idiotic ridiculous mother fuckers, and we spend to much time attacking and defending them, while the logical people should just ignore them and fix things for themselves. Great post though, and you are right.

Ill agree with the second half of the above statement. However, I think it's not too far from true that Conservatives have a much more Darwinistic approach to social issues - "pull yourself up by the boot straps" type attitude... and it's only the effort given in most cases that decides who wins and who loses.

Look how often they associate welfare with people being lazy or abusing the system.

Im not saying that they WANT people to live in poverty, but I do think it doesnt rank as high on their priority list as it does for people on the Left. And, yea, maybe the Left spends too much time making excuses for the actual people that ARE lazy and DO rip off the system.

But I think it's falacy that we want the same thing - jezzus, how many times do I have to say it. The Patriot Act, abortion, flag burning, dissent against the war, stem cells, religion in public schools, public assistance programs.

Read beyond the headlines, listen beyond the soundbytes, and it's easy to see that the Left and the Right have TWO VERY DIFFERENT visions for America.

Now, I am applying this to the current leadership of both parties - not to people here that call them selves either Left or Right. But if you vote one way, you advocate the policies of the parties. You vote for Bush, you advocate the War in Iraq, deficit spending, banning stem cells, teachin ID in schools, etc...

I can get past that.

Pastor JeffD

69charger wrote:

We haven't already?

Yeah, we're in Iraq too, but we haven't stopped in Afgahnistan.

Well, we let Bin Laden escape in Tora Bora. We've allowed much of the country to be run by poppy growing war-lords, the Talliban has crept back in.

The border between Pakistan and Afghanistan is fuckin rife with Al Queda -- we havent near the troops there to really stomp them out.

Come on, we BOTH know where our priorities are. Dont jerk me around and say that we've got our eyes equally on both theaters of combat.

And I never bash America - I love my country - I only "bash" people and things that I think are hurting the country I love (que Star Spangled Banner).

_Crazy_Mary_

Pastor JeffD wrote:

Ill agree with the second half of the above statement. However, I think it's not too far from true that Conservatives have a much more Darwinistic approach to social issues - "pull yourself up by the boot straps" type attitude... and it's only the effort given in most cases that decides who wins and who loses.

Look how often they associate welfare with people being lazy or abusing the system.

Im not saying that they WANT people to live in poverty, but I do think it doesnt rank as high on their priority list as it does for people on the Left. And, yea, maybe the Left spends too much time making excuses for the actual people that ARE lazy and DO rip off the system.

But I think it's falacy that we want the same thing - jezzus, how many times do I have to say it. The Patriot Act, abortion, flag burning, dissent against the war, stem cells, religion in public schools, public assistance programs.

Read beyond the headlines, listen beyond the soundbytes, and it's easy to see that the Left and the Right have TWO VERY DIFFERENT visions for America.

Now, I am applying this to the current leadership of both parties - not to people here that call them selves either Left or Right. But if you vote one way, you advocate the policies of the parties. You vote for Bush, you advocate the War in Iraq, deficit spending, banning stem cells, teachin ID in schools, etc...

I can get past that.

I'm sure you can see as well that MANY people do abuse the welfare system. I've seen many people do it personally. Here are two examples:

One couple I know with three children receive welfare checks, food stamps, WIC and medi-cal (state funded medical coverage). They drive a brand new Chevy Tahoe and only shop at Abercrombie and Fitch. Neither of them are disabled (in fact they work out at the gym four times a week) and neither of them work.

The other couple with one child do both work, also collect WIC and medi-cal and own not one but two homes!! Also the state pays for their day-care. The kid is there nine hours a day, five days a week and with a babysitter on the weekends.

This behavior drives me insane!! In the meantime I am still paying the hospital for the baby I had eight months ago. All together the cost of that pregnancy and delivery cost $5900. You would not believe how often I heard "You should go on medi-cal." I'm not having a child if I can't pay for it myself. This country would be a lot less populated if we all had those same morals.

SweetHarmonics

this thread turned out pretty well

I don't agree that ODB should sum up everyone that's on welfare, even though he was a legend r.i.p.

Nobody here can pinpoint who exactly these "terrorists" we seem to conveniently encounter. I'm not talking about the media-reported identity of the actual bomber, I'm referring to the infrastructure behind it. Who really has that kind of organization in the underworld to pull off these huge events (9-11, Spain and UK train/bus bombings, Bali, etc...)?

Besides all the DC misconduct, we are even more slighted by the national media. The way they take these meaningless stories (in the grand scheme of things) and run with them, it's such bullshit and no one seems to mind. Athletes on steriods, Natalie Holloway, MJ and his ongoing saga,.... How in the hell does this affect anyone's day-to-day life?

Until the media and subsequently everyone else starts taking our gov't process seriously year-round, then this cycle of petty R v. D issues will continue.