perhaps you missed the non-stop bombardment of Baghdad to begin this war (shock and awe)... Baghdad is a city of 8,000,000 people, i repeat Baghdad is a city of 8 MILLION people. i think we can call that slaughtering everything in sight, except it was done from 10,000 feet and the persian gulf.
Nice try throwing in the link to the rape case as if that had anything to do with the shock and awe campaign.
And in a city of 8 million people we had 6,000 civilian casualties. VERY unfortunate, but certainly not "slaughtering everything in sight". Were that the case, shouldn't there have been 8 million civilian casualties?
Shock and awe was aimed at Iraqi military, which we dispatched like a hot knife through butter.
We know you don't like war. I don't either. But you do your cause no good by your detachment from reality.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Nice try throwing in the link to the rape case as if that had anything to do with the shock and awe campaign.
And in a city of 8 million people we had 6,000 civilian casualties. VERY unfortunate, but certainly not "slaughtering everything in sight". Were that the case, shouldn't there have been 8 million civilian casualties?
Shock and awe was aimed at Iraqi military, which we dispatched like a hot knife through butter.
We know you don't like war. I don't either. But you do your cause no good by your detachment from reality.
got something to site for that 6,000 #?
and i think 6,000 civilians killed in 1-2 days can be considered a slaughter, but maybe not where your from?
and i remember the shock and awe being aimed mostly at Baghdad, which is a CIVILIAN CITY.
no matter what small points you guys want to pull out of my posts and banter over, it does not change the fact that we have personally caused, and financed the SLAUGHTER of 300,000-900,000 people. we must acknowledge this, ALL OF US, and we must stop it ASAP and make sure it never fucking happens again.
the rape case had nothing to with the shcok and awe, it is an illustration of what is happening on our watch.
you also beat your chest proudly when refering to dispatching the iraq military like "a hot knife through butter"? is that something to brag about? does it make you feel like a man? why is that so great?
"detachment from reality" you accuse me of, please expand a little?
i completely disagree, take a look at the history of recent wars our country has been involved with. each and every time the select few representing elite interests have had to lie, spin, and miseducate the public to "trick" them into supporting the war... people do not want to wage war, and average people certainly dont want to wage war bc they are always the ones that are affected in the worst ways. everyone supports peace, and i do mean everyone.
take Iraq for example, look at the lies that had to be spoonfed, look at the spin that had to take place, look at the propganda campaigns that had to be forced down the populaces throats just to convince them to support the war...they were told about 9/11 ties, WMD, that it would be quick and easy, that we would be greeted as hero's, that the smoking gun could be a "mushroom cloud"... and this was all done to invade a country that had a leader the american public believed was the second coming of satan... if i remember correctly the Iraq war had HISTORY'S LARGEST PRE-WAR DEMONSTRATION speaking out against it... after all the lies and spin, the polls showed only approx 60% support for the invasion... and of course after the lies are revealed the approval is almost minimal, held onto by only the extremely hawkish individuals.
Vietnam was the same, lies, propaganda, spin... and once the american public FINALLY woke up and could see through all the smoke this country was almost ripped apart becasue of it and the outrage towards the war.
we have only been around for a few thousand years, we have just made advances in civil, womens, labor, children, and racial rights within the last 100 years.
so you may see war as inevetable, I see that the end of war is inevetable.
and look at ww2, korea, kosovo/bosnia, iraq 1... sometimes bad people do shitty things and invade other countries. when we had limited objectives the american people were happy to go to war. we went to korea, forced them north of the parallel, and left. we forced germans back into germany. we forced saddam out of kuwait. we didnt seem too distressed about any of those. but they were all just wars. wars will always be fought becos you're always going to have shitty people who will try to take advantage of peace and understand nothing but violence. and the only way to beat those people is war... you can't reason with a madman like hitler. this war is not one of those just wars. but we did it anyway, we fucked up. now it's time to fix it, rather than flogging ourselves and acting like we're the most horrible human beings on earth for paying our taxes. on the scale of shitty things done in human history, we could ahve done a whole lot worse. so let's fix our mess and get the fuck out. but that wont put an end to war, and there will be plenty of others.
this war is not one of those just wars. but we did it anyway, we fucked up. now it's time to fix it, rather than flogging ourselves and acting like we're the most horrible human beings on earth for paying our taxes.
the point of the thread is quite simple.
ask anyone you work with how many iraqi civilians have been killed, once you hear the answers you will see point 1 of the post, they have no fucking clue even though they are completely responsible for it.
and the second point is to help show the one thing that i think gets left out or glossed over way too often, which is that WE FUCKING PAY FOR IT, all of it, pro-war or anti war. the american public has completely financed this debacle and chaos, how do you stop it? cut off the $ for it. it is OUR fucking money, so this is our fucking war, and we can stop it anytime we want. i am not comfortable knowing that my hard earned money helped kill children and innocents. period.
i dont really feel like arguing over side issues, most feel that war is inevitable, i think those people and that form of thinking are short sighted, narrow minded, and unable to think outside of the box. those same people will say i am unrealistic and a dreamer. only time will tell, and i hope i am right
IMO, every war the USA has been involved in since 1945 has been involvement by choice, much like this one. and everyone one before ww2 was also a war by choice, IMO.
ask anyone you work with how many iraqi civilians have been killed, once you hear the answers you will see point 1 of the post, they have no fucking clue even though they are completely responsible for it.
and the second point is to help show the one thing that i think gets left out or glossed over way too often, which is that WE FUCKING PAY FOR IT, all of it. the american public has completely financed this debacle and chaos, how do you stop it? cut off the $ for it. it is OUR fucking money, so this is our fucking war, and we can stop it anytime we want. i am not comfortable knowing that my hard earned money helped kill children and innocents. period.
i dont really feel like arguing over side issues, most feel that war is inevitable, i think those people and that form of thinking are short sighted, narrow minded, and unable to think outside of the box. those same people will say i am unrealistic and a dreamer. only time will tell, and i hope i am right
IMO, every war the USA has been involved in since 1945 has been involvement by choice, much like this one. and everyone one before ww2 was also a war by choice, IMO.
so lets cut funding off, pull the troops out, and sit around and wait for one group to slaughter the other so that you can sleep at night...
a couple of years later, you'll be wondering why all these terror incidents are occurring on US soil and be crying that these people need to be stopped.
And you're right, war is a choice... a choice to deal with a situation now or a choice to hide and avoid it and hope it goes away.... worked real well in stopping Hitler huh???
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Social awareness does not equal political activism!
5/23/2011- An utter embarrassment... ticketing failures too many to list.
you also beat your chest proudly when refering to dispatching the iraq military like "a hot knife through butter"? is that something to brag about? does it make you feel like a man? why is that so great?
The invading forces dispatched the Iraqi forces with such brilliance and ease like we've never seen before. The invasion itself will be marveled for years upon years; various military orgs will use it as a model.
From that standpoint, it is something to brag about.
so lets cut funding off, pull the troops out, and sit around and wait for one group to slaughter the other so that you can sleep at night...
a couple of years later, you'll be wondering why all these terror incidents are occurring on US soil and be crying that these people need to be stopped.
And you're right, war is a choice... a choice to deal with a situation now or a choice to hide and avoid it and hope it goes away.... worked real well in stopping Hitler huh???
the whole fight them here or fight them there is extremely weak.
1. what did iraq have to do with terrorists?
2. 3,000 american soldiers are dead, we took our guys and put them in harms way, making any "terrorist's" job that much easier. do you think 3,000 americans would have been killed in the last 4 years on our soil by terrorists? i dont think so.
3. "wait for one group to slaughter another"... what they hell do you think is happening now? there are 600,000 dead, with us there? a bunch of 20 year old americans trying to determine who is shite and who is sunni? so i guess you want our guys to stay with targets on their backs, asking them to complete a mission that is impossible.
4. i guess you think that the iraq insurgents will swin across the atlantic and hurt us? when did americans become suck big pussies? scared of thier own shadow if it has a beard and a koran. i think the 20,000 murders by firearm in this country yearly is a much larger threat than any religous fanatic.
5. what is wrong with wanting my family, friends, and fellow americans to come home safe to their fucking families? so they can hug their mother, kiss their wife, and raise their children.
6. an argument can be made that ww2 was a must, and that hitler must be stopped. at this point i agree with that. BUT, you are a smart guy, and you know that comparing Hitler to this fiasco is bullshit. this was clearly a war of choice, a wrong choice. to esaclate and continue it is also the wrong choice.
7. it is easy to say "stay the course" and "victory" when we are 5,000 miles away safely in our homes with our loved ones. people tend to treat these soldiers like robots without needs or emotions. they need to come home now.
8. all studies and educated opinions shop that our unjust occupation of Iraq has helped fuel radial islamic terrorism like no other thing in history. go ahead and keep swatting at the bee's nest, providing plenty of fuel and propaganda for the recruiters. we had a small camp fire, through lots of gas on it and now have a 4 alarm blaze, the sad thing is we keep pumping more gas onto the fire.
ps... i am a bitmore optimistic about the phillies chances, all hinging on the bullpen.
The invading forces dispatched the Iraqi forces with such brilliance and ease like we've never seen before. The invasion itself will be marveled for years upon years; various military orgs will use it as a model.
From that standpoint, it is something to brag about.
i would say that is nothing to brag about. anybody can break a vase, it is putting it back together that is the tricky part.
perhaps you forgot about the decade long sanctions that crippled the Iraq military capabilities.
i can beat a handicapped child at basketball, is that something to brag about?
and i think 6,000 civilians killed in 1-2 days can be considered a slaughter, but maybe not where your from?
and i remember the shock and awe being aimed mostly at Baghdad, which is a CIVILIAN CITY.
no matter what small points you guys want to pull out of my posts and banter over, it does not change the fact that we have personally caused, and financed the SLAUGHTER of 300,000-900,000 people. we must acknowledge this, ALL OF US, and we must stop it ASAP and make sure it never fucking happens again.
the rape case had nothing to with the shcok and awe, it is an illustration of what is happening on our watch.
you also beat your chest proudly when refering to dispatching the iraq military like "a hot knife through butter"? is that something to brag about? does it make you feel like a man? why is that so great?
"detachment from reality" you accuse me of, please expand a little?
The number I cited comes from your own wiki link.
I agree that the rape case has nothing to do with shock & awe, which is why I wondered why you added it. It is disgusting that it happened and I'm glad light was shed on it. Just didn't see the shock & awe relevance.
Hot knife through butter simply illustrated that military vs military, shock & awe is an effective approach. I'm not justifying the war, and am pissed off at the ineffectiveness of the politicians prosecuting the war.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
my2- read #3 in your rant again and tell me if the 600,000 are due to the US being there or because shites and sunnis are killing each other... because now you're saying its both. What they wouldn't kille each other without US forces there?? come on now...
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Admin
Social awareness does not equal political activism!
5/23/2011- An utter embarrassment... ticketing failures too many to list.
you mean 2 of the countries cheney and halliburton did business in up until 2000???
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
my2- read #3 in your rant again and tell me if the 600,000 are due to the US being there or because shites and sunnis are killing each other... because now you're saying its both. What they wouldn't kille each other without US forces there?? come on now...
i can say wothout a doubt that 600,000 iraqi civilians would not have been killed in the last 4 years if we didnt invade, and that doesnt mean i think saddam is a good guy.
and i can also say that those 3,000 american soldiers would still be alive as well.
please tell me what postiives come out of staying?
so lets cut funding off, pull the troops out, and sit around and wait for one group to slaughter the other so that you can sleep at night...
a couple of years later, you'll be wondering why all these terror incidents are occurring on US soil and be crying that these people need to be stopped.
And you're right, war is a choice... a choice to deal with a situation now or a choice to hide and avoid it and hope it goes away.... worked real well in stopping Hitler huh???
chromiam, what do you think about US companies, like GE, selling things, like munitions in GE's case, to Hitler even AFTER we entered the war?
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Nice try throwing in the link to the rape case as if that had anything to do with the shock and awe campaign.
And in a city of 8 million people we had 6,000 civilian casualties. VERY unfortunate, but certainly not "slaughtering everything in sight". Were that the case, shouldn't there have been 8 million civilian casualties?
Shock and awe was aimed at Iraqi military, which we dispatched like a hot knife through butter.
We know you don't like war. I don't either. But you do your cause no good by your detachment from reality.
actually a huge part in the theory of 'shock and awe' is the targeting of civilians and their infrastructure....
from teh creator of 'shock and awe'
Harlan Ullman, (chief architect of the “Shock and Awe” Rapid Dominance battle plan), 1/24/03
(Ullman is a civilian “defense intellectual” who co-authored “Shock and Awe” (1996); currently is an analyst for Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS); was a U.S. Navy pilot in Vietnam, commanded a destroyer during the first Gulf War.)
“So that you have this simultaneous effect, rather like the nuclear weapons at Hiroshima, not taking days or weeks, but in minutes.” CBS, 1/24/03
“You also take the city down. By that I mean you get rid of their power, water. In 2, 3, 4, 5 days they are physically, emotionally, and psychologically exhausted.” CBS, 1/24/03
“The pressure will continue until we run out of targets.”
“You’ll see simultaneous attacks of hundreds of warheads, maybe thousands.”
“…this Shock and Awe may not necessitate imposing the full destruction of either nuclear weapons or advanced conventional technologies, but must be underwritten by the ability to do so.”
Colin Powell, U.S. Secretary of State: [Harlan Ullman] “raised my vision several levels.”
.........................................................................
More harlan ullman quotes:
In some of the examples, the objective is to apply brutal levels of power and force to achieve Shock and Awe. In the attempt to keep war "immaculate," at least in limiting collateral damage, one point should not be forgotten. Above all, war is a nasty business or, as Sherman put it, "war is hell." While there are surely humanitarian considerations that cannot or should not be ignored, the ability to Shock and Awe ultimately rests in the ability to frighten, scare, intimidate, and disarm. The Clausewitzian dictum concerning the violent nature of war is dismissed only at our peril.
There is also the option of applying massive destruction against purely civilian or "counter-value" targets such as the firebombing of Tokyo in World War II when unconditionality marks the terms of surrender. It is the cumulative impact of destruction on the endurance and capacity of the adversary that ultimately affects the will to resist that is the central foundation of this example…..
Achieving Shock and Awe rests in the ability to deter and overpower an adversary through the adversary's perception and fear of his vulnerability and our own invincibility.
The second example is "Hiroshima and Nagasaki" noted earlier. The intent here is to impose a regime of Shock and Awe through delivery of instant, nearly incomprehensible levels of massive destruction directed at influencing society writ large, meaning its leadership and public, rather than targeting directly against military or strategic objectives even with relatively few numbers or systems. The employment of this capability against society and its values, called "counter-value" in the nuclear deterrent jargon, is massively destructive strikes directly at the public will of the adversary to resist and, ideally or theoretically, would instantly or quickly incapacitate that will over the space of a few hours or days…..
Shutting the country down would entail both the physical destruction of appropriate infrastructure and the shutdown and control of the flow of all vital information and associated commerce so rapidly as to achieve a level of national shock akin to the effect that dropping nuclear weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki had on the Japanese. Simultaneously, Iraq's armed forces would be paralyzed with the neutralization or destruction of its capabilities. Deception, disinformation, and misinformation would be applied massively.
…it would be vitally important to give the appearance that there are no safe havens from attack, and that any target may be attacked at any time with impunity and force.
[Options for targeting] “could include means of communication, transportation, food production, water supply, and other aspects of infrastructure…”
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
actually a huge part in the theory of 'shock and awe' is the targeting of civilians and their infrastructure....
Thanks for the post. Lots of interesting information. Shock & Awe has been an understood concept all the way back to Sun Tzu.
But my post specifically referred to Shock & Awe in Iraq. We clearly didn't level the place targetting civilians. We sent wave after wave of sorties to decimate the military, and did so in short order with relative ease and relatively fewe civillian casualties. The shock & awe as outlined by your post would have resulted in millions and millions of civilian casualties. We all know that didn't happen.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
5. what is wrong with wanting my family, friends, and fellow americans to come home safe to their fucking families? so they can hug their mother, kiss their wife, and raise their children.
Comments
Nice try throwing in the link to the rape case as if that had anything to do with the shock and awe campaign.
And in a city of 8 million people we had 6,000 civilian casualties. VERY unfortunate, but certainly not "slaughtering everything in sight". Were that the case, shouldn't there have been 8 million civilian casualties?
Shock and awe was aimed at Iraqi military, which we dispatched like a hot knife through butter.
We know you don't like war. I don't either. But you do your cause no good by your detachment from reality.
got something to site for that 6,000 #?
and i think 6,000 civilians killed in 1-2 days can be considered a slaughter, but maybe not where your from?
and i remember the shock and awe being aimed mostly at Baghdad, which is a CIVILIAN CITY.
no matter what small points you guys want to pull out of my posts and banter over, it does not change the fact that we have personally caused, and financed the SLAUGHTER of 300,000-900,000 people. we must acknowledge this, ALL OF US, and we must stop it ASAP and make sure it never fucking happens again.
the rape case had nothing to with the shcok and awe, it is an illustration of what is happening on our watch.
you also beat your chest proudly when refering to dispatching the iraq military like "a hot knife through butter"? is that something to brag about? does it make you feel like a man? why is that so great?
"detachment from reality" you accuse me of, please expand a little?
and look at ww2, korea, kosovo/bosnia, iraq 1... sometimes bad people do shitty things and invade other countries. when we had limited objectives the american people were happy to go to war. we went to korea, forced them north of the parallel, and left. we forced germans back into germany. we forced saddam out of kuwait. we didnt seem too distressed about any of those. but they were all just wars. wars will always be fought becos you're always going to have shitty people who will try to take advantage of peace and understand nothing but violence. and the only way to beat those people is war... you can't reason with a madman like hitler. this war is not one of those just wars. but we did it anyway, we fucked up. now it's time to fix it, rather than flogging ourselves and acting like we're the most horrible human beings on earth for paying our taxes. on the scale of shitty things done in human history, we could ahve done a whole lot worse. so let's fix our mess and get the fuck out. but that wont put an end to war, and there will be plenty of others.
the point of the thread is quite simple.
ask anyone you work with how many iraqi civilians have been killed, once you hear the answers you will see point 1 of the post, they have no fucking clue even though they are completely responsible for it.
and the second point is to help show the one thing that i think gets left out or glossed over way too often, which is that WE FUCKING PAY FOR IT, all of it, pro-war or anti war. the american public has completely financed this debacle and chaos, how do you stop it? cut off the $ for it. it is OUR fucking money, so this is our fucking war, and we can stop it anytime we want. i am not comfortable knowing that my hard earned money helped kill children and innocents. period.
i dont really feel like arguing over side issues, most feel that war is inevitable, i think those people and that form of thinking are short sighted, narrow minded, and unable to think outside of the box. those same people will say i am unrealistic and a dreamer. only time will tell, and i hope i am right
IMO, every war the USA has been involved in since 1945 has been involvement by choice, much like this one. and everyone one before ww2 was also a war by choice, IMO.
so lets cut funding off, pull the troops out, and sit around and wait for one group to slaughter the other so that you can sleep at night...
a couple of years later, you'll be wondering why all these terror incidents are occurring on US soil and be crying that these people need to be stopped.
And you're right, war is a choice... a choice to deal with a situation now or a choice to hide and avoid it and hope it goes away.... worked real well in stopping Hitler huh???
Admin
Social awareness does not equal political activism!
5/23/2011- An utter embarrassment... ticketing failures too many to list.
The invading forces dispatched the Iraqi forces with such brilliance and ease like we've never seen before. The invasion itself will be marveled for years upon years; various military orgs will use it as a model.
From that standpoint, it is something to brag about.
the whole fight them here or fight them there is extremely weak.
1. what did iraq have to do with terrorists?
2. 3,000 american soldiers are dead, we took our guys and put them in harms way, making any "terrorist's" job that much easier. do you think 3,000 americans would have been killed in the last 4 years on our soil by terrorists? i dont think so.
3. "wait for one group to slaughter another"... what they hell do you think is happening now? there are 600,000 dead, with us there? a bunch of 20 year old americans trying to determine who is shite and who is sunni? so i guess you want our guys to stay with targets on their backs, asking them to complete a mission that is impossible.
4. i guess you think that the iraq insurgents will swin across the atlantic and hurt us? when did americans become suck big pussies? scared of thier own shadow if it has a beard and a koran. i think the 20,000 murders by firearm in this country yearly is a much larger threat than any religous fanatic.
5. what is wrong with wanting my family, friends, and fellow americans to come home safe to their fucking families? so they can hug their mother, kiss their wife, and raise their children.
6. an argument can be made that ww2 was a must, and that hitler must be stopped. at this point i agree with that. BUT, you are a smart guy, and you know that comparing Hitler to this fiasco is bullshit. this was clearly a war of choice, a wrong choice. to esaclate and continue it is also the wrong choice.
7. it is easy to say "stay the course" and "victory" when we are 5,000 miles away safely in our homes with our loved ones. people tend to treat these soldiers like robots without needs or emotions. they need to come home now.
8. all studies and educated opinions shop that our unjust occupation of Iraq has helped fuel radial islamic terrorism like no other thing in history. go ahead and keep swatting at the bee's nest, providing plenty of fuel and propaganda for the recruiters. we had a small camp fire, through lots of gas on it and now have a 4 alarm blaze, the sad thing is we keep pumping more gas onto the fire.
ps... i am a bitmore optimistic about the phillies chances, all hinging on the bullpen.
i would say that is nothing to brag about. anybody can break a vase, it is putting it back together that is the tricky part.
perhaps you forgot about the decade long sanctions that crippled the Iraq military capabilities.
i can beat a handicapped child at basketball, is that something to brag about?
The number I cited comes from your own wiki link.
I agree that the rape case has nothing to do with shock & awe, which is why I wondered why you added it. It is disgusting that it happened and I'm glad light was shed on it. Just didn't see the shock & awe relevance.
Hot knife through butter simply illustrated that military vs military, shock & awe is an effective approach. I'm not justifying the war, and am pissed off at the ineffectiveness of the politicians prosecuting the war.
Admin
Social awareness does not equal political activism!
5/23/2011- An utter embarrassment... ticketing failures too many to list.
you mean 2 of the countries cheney and halliburton did business in up until 2000???
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
i can say wothout a doubt that 600,000 iraqi civilians would not have been killed in the last 4 years if we didnt invade, and that doesnt mean i think saddam is a good guy.
and i can also say that those 3,000 american soldiers would still be alive as well.
please tell me what postiives come out of staying?
chromiam, what do you think about US companies, like GE, selling things, like munitions in GE's case, to Hitler even AFTER we entered the war?
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
actually a huge part in the theory of 'shock and awe' is the targeting of civilians and their infrastructure....
from teh creator of 'shock and awe'
Harlan Ullman, (chief architect of the “Shock and Awe” Rapid Dominance battle plan), 1/24/03
(Ullman is a civilian “defense intellectual” who co-authored “Shock and Awe” (1996); currently is an analyst for Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS); was a U.S. Navy pilot in Vietnam, commanded a destroyer during the first Gulf War.)
“So that you have this simultaneous effect, rather like the nuclear weapons at Hiroshima, not taking days or weeks, but in minutes.” CBS, 1/24/03
“You also take the city down. By that I mean you get rid of their power, water. In 2, 3, 4, 5 days they are physically, emotionally, and psychologically exhausted.” CBS, 1/24/03
“The pressure will continue until we run out of targets.”
“You’ll see simultaneous attacks of hundreds of warheads, maybe thousands.”
“…this Shock and Awe may not necessitate imposing the full destruction of either nuclear weapons or advanced conventional technologies, but must be underwritten by the ability to do so.”
Colin Powell, U.S. Secretary of State: [Harlan Ullman] “raised my vision several levels.”
.........................................................................
More harlan ullman quotes:
In some of the examples, the objective is to apply brutal levels of power and force to achieve Shock and Awe. In the attempt to keep war "immaculate," at least in limiting collateral damage, one point should not be forgotten. Above all, war is a nasty business or, as Sherman put it, "war is hell." While there are surely humanitarian considerations that cannot or should not be ignored, the ability to Shock and Awe ultimately rests in the ability to frighten, scare, intimidate, and disarm. The Clausewitzian dictum concerning the violent nature of war is dismissed only at our peril.
There is also the option of applying massive destruction against purely civilian or "counter-value" targets such as the firebombing of Tokyo in World War II when unconditionality marks the terms of surrender. It is the cumulative impact of destruction on the endurance and capacity of the adversary that ultimately affects the will to resist that is the central foundation of this example…..
Achieving Shock and Awe rests in the ability to deter and overpower an adversary through the adversary's perception and fear of his vulnerability and our own invincibility.
The second example is "Hiroshima and Nagasaki" noted earlier. The intent here is to impose a regime of Shock and Awe through delivery of instant, nearly incomprehensible levels of massive destruction directed at influencing society writ large, meaning its leadership and public, rather than targeting directly against military or strategic objectives even with relatively few numbers or systems. The employment of this capability against society and its values, called "counter-value" in the nuclear deterrent jargon, is massively destructive strikes directly at the public will of the adversary to resist and, ideally or theoretically, would instantly or quickly incapacitate that will over the space of a few hours or days…..
Shutting the country down would entail both the physical destruction of appropriate infrastructure and the shutdown and control of the flow of all vital information and associated commerce so rapidly as to achieve a level of national shock akin to the effect that dropping nuclear weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki had on the Japanese. Simultaneously, Iraq's armed forces would be paralyzed with the neutralization or destruction of its capabilities. Deception, disinformation, and misinformation would be applied massively.
…it would be vitally important to give the appearance that there are no safe havens from attack, and that any target may be attacked at any time with impunity and force.
[Options for targeting] “could include means of communication, transportation, food production, water supply, and other aspects of infrastructure…”
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Thanks for the post. Lots of interesting information. Shock & Awe has been an understood concept all the way back to Sun Tzu.
But my post specifically referred to Shock & Awe in Iraq. We clearly didn't level the place targetting civilians. We sent wave after wave of sorties to decimate the military, and did so in short order with relative ease and relatively fewe civillian casualties. The shock & awe as outlined by your post would have resulted in millions and millions of civilian casualties. We all know that didn't happen.
this point cant be made enough
I try but the hypocrisy of some tastes so bad it makes my eyes water.....