600,000 Dead Civilians, financed by me and you

soulsinging

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Man has greatly evolved from our primitive, animalistic behavior in the beginings. We used to be ok with so much that is unthinkable to support and carryout nowdays. We grown at a constant rate away from violence over time. Remember burning people at the stake, gunfights/duels in the streets, medieval torture, etc? We will continue to evolve past the thinking that killing each other is any kind of answer to our problems....and war will phase itself out as we evolve into more intelligent beings with better methods of communication and problem solving.

really? last i checked, people were still killed in the streets every day in this country. we still torture people we consider enemies, we just have different definitions. we dont burn people at the stake, we strap them to the electric chair or give them a lethal injection. we have refined our instincts, but the call for revenge, justice, greed, power, lust, still rules us. we've just found better ways to focus it: due process before we kill people, just war before wars, jurisdictional dodges for torture. humanity is a very, very, very long way off from eradicating war and i dont believe it will ever be done. we have come a long way swinging from trees, but greed, violence, and selfishness in humanity has not slowed down one bit. only gotten more creative and with better rationalizations for it. what you're talking about is some sort of evolution to where all humans are rhodes scholars. it wont happen. most humans are dumb, animalistic creatures. it took us 10,000 years to invent due process and that certainly hasn't slowed the baser urges of humanity. people will always see an advantage in being willing to do what the other guy doesn't. and so we will always have wars. we can try to strive for peace and avoid wars that are unnecessary (like iraq), but war itself will never be gone.

i dont know how you cannot see the similarity in tactics between this post and the abortion ultrasound initiative... they're both efforts to force the distasteful into the face of people, say "look at your murder!" and browbeat them into seeing things your way. nobody is suddenly going to change their mind on the war becos someone posted a tally on the moving train. the sides have been drawn. a real plan to get out of iraq... that would be worth talking about. but this is nothing more than an attempt at guilt manipulation that will not work and comes off looking petty.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

soulsinging wrote:

e can't suppress them. we still have to eat, we still have to shit, and if that anger doesn't come out we end up in therapy or shooting people from belltowers. we can find more appropriate places and outlets for them from time to time, but war is a fact of life. humans and animals fight for resources all the time. and so it will continue. we're not special.

We can and do suppress instincts. We just can't entirely eliminate them. Some people cannot suppress the urge to pick their noses while driving or urinating in public, but many do, so that would seem to indicate changes in instinctive behavior over time.

Specifics

jeffbr wrote:

Tribal/Sect warfare has been going on in that region forever. They kill each other daily. They were killing each other daily before we got there.

Sorry i lost the thread a little, are you talking about the US here?

soulsinging

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

We can and do suppress instincts. We just can't entirely eliminate them. Some people cannot suppress the urge to pick their noses while driving or urinating in public, but many do, so that would seem to indicate changes in instinctive behavior over time.

and as long as we can't entirely eliminate them, we will still have wars and murder and poverty and hunger. utopia is never going to happen.

soulsinging

Ahnimus wrote:

Or in elevators
http://shoutfile.com/v/Q3d4XDYZ/Crazy_Guy_in_an_Elevator

highly evolved

Abookamongstthemany

soulsinging wrote:

really? last i checked, people were still killed in the streets every day in this country. we still torture people we consider enemies, we just have different definitions. we dont burn people at the stake, we strap them to the electric chair or give them a lethal injection. we have refined our instincts, but the call for revenge, justice, greed, power, lust, still rules us. we've just found better ways to focus it: due process before we kill people, just war before wars, jurisdictional dodges for torture. humanity is a very, very, very long way off from eradicating war and i dont believe it will ever be done. we have come a long way swinging from trees, but greed, violence, and selfishness in humanity has not slowed down one bit. only gotten more creative and with better rationalizations for it. what you're talking about is some sort of evolution to where all humans are rhodes scholars. it wont happen. most humans are dumb, animalistic creatures. it took us 10,000 years to invent due process and that certainly hasn't slowed the baser urges of humanity. people will always see an advantage in being willing to do what the other guy doesn't. and so we will always have wars. we can try to strive for peace and avoid wars that are unnecessary (like iraq), but war itself will never be gone.

i dont know how you cannot see the similarity in tactics between this post and the abortion ultrasound initiative... they're both efforts to force the distasteful into the face of people, say "look at your murder!" and browbeat them into seeing things your way. nobody is suddenly going to change their mind on the war becos someone posted a tally on the moving train. the sides have been drawn. a real plan to get out of iraq... that would be worth talking about. but this is nothing more than an attempt at guilt manipulation that will not work and comes off looking petty.

I disagree. Violence has slowed down and became much less acceptable. No one would blink about a street duel back then now it's a crime. People speak out against violent methods and are gaining ground and support. I see a lot of progress and will remain hopeful.

No one is passing a law forcing anyone to read posts here. I think it could make a difference to people who read this and may be on the fence. There are far more of those people than those of us here who have our leanings already. I think people should have to see the result of their decisions. That's the problem with America...we like to do as we please and not have to deal with the consequences. I think that's bullshit. Also, if you're discarding a fetus, who you don't consider a real 'life' yet, then why would it be upsetting to see it? I don't think it should be law but what is the problem with seeing your decision?

soulsinging

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

I disagree. Violence has slowed down and became much less acceptable. No one would blink about a street duel back then now it's a crime. People speak out against violent methods and are gaining ground and support. I see a lot of progress and will remain hopeful.

No one is passing a law forcing anyone to read posts here. I think it could make a difference to people who read this and may be on the fence. There are far more of those people than those of us here who have our leanings already. I think people should have to see the result of their decisions. That's the problem with America...we like to do as we please and not have to deal with the consequences. I think that's bullshit. Also, if you're discarding a fetus, who you don't consider a real 'life' yet, then why would it be upsetting to see it? I don't think it should be law but what is the problem with seeing your decision?

that's covered at length in the other thread. it's just shameful emotional manipulation. let your argument stand on its merits.

we should see our consequences... how about after an abortion we hold up the bloody mess of jelly and grab women and say "look what you did!" people dont come to the moving train unless they're already politically savvy, at least enough to know innocent people are dying in iraq. whose mind has this changed?

im just bored of the one trick ponies. every day a new "look how evil iraq is" thread. we know, give it a rest. how about figuring a way out of it? no, i dont have to read their thread, but i have every right to tell them their act is tired.

jeffbr

Specifics wrote:

Sorry i lost the thread a little, are you talking about the US here?

Do try to follow along.

Abookamongstthemany

soulsinging wrote:

that's covered at length in the other thread. it's just shameful emotional manipulation. let your argument stand on its merits.

we should see our consequences... how about after an abortion we hold up the bloody mess of jelly and grab women and say "look what you did!" people dont come to the moving train unless they're already politically savvy, at least enough to know innocent people are dying in iraq. whose mind has this changed?

im just bored of the one trick ponies. every day a new "look how evil iraq is" thread. we know, give it a rest. how about figuring a way out of it? no, i dont have to read their thread, but i have every right to tell them their act is tired.

I don't understand the whole emotional problem. What is there to feel guilt about? Maybe they are saddened by what could have been? I don't know. Holding up a bloody blob would infer that the woman has did something wrong, why else would you show it to her? The same can be said for showing her the ultrsound. What's the purpose except to place guilt? She hasn't done anything wrong so there's no explanation for showing her something disgusting like that or even the ultrasound. There's no logic behind it. It IS manipulating her to feel she is doing something wrong. That's creating a guilt where there should not be one. If someone is going into an abortion clinic thinking she's killing a baby, then she shouldn't be there. You can't justify killing another person, that WOULD be murder. It's just not a person yet so no guilt should be involved, imo. However, supporting the war does mean supporting the consequences of it (killing other peopele) and guilt should be placed on those who support it for what it has caused (thousand of lives lost and families torn apart). There are no consequences of abortion except for not being pregnant anymore. You've only affected your life. One, I consider to be wrong (the war, killing people) and the other (abortion, discarding a fetus) I don't.

Iraq was and is wrong and I feel people shouldn't shut up about that until we are outta there. That's my opinion. If you don't want to be face to face with the consequences of it...maybe you should rethink your stance.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

soulsinging wrote:

and as long as we can't entirely eliminate them, we will still have wars and murder and poverty and hunger. utopia is never going to happen.

Unfortunately instinctive behavior at this point in time affects people around the world in varying degrees. War and occupation certainly lights them all up nicely into an avalanche of regression. I don't think we are, or forever will be, at the mercy of our own brain chemicals so to speak.

The word never is a somewhat of a peculiar word in itself though.

What we need to do is to elect leaders real morals and character. Honest people. Not greedy scammers. If it's corrupted at the top were doomed until it's corrected.

Also we really need to start using the sun more. I'm looking at an ad in a magazine with a double page detailed spread of the sun with the caption "Just what every home needs. Your very own 170,000 Trillion watt power station."

soulsinging

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

I don't understand the whole emotional problem. What is there to feel guilt about? Maybe they are saddened by what could have been? I don't know. Holding up a bloody blob would infer that the woman has did something wrong, why else would you show it to her? The same can be said for showing her the ultrsound. What's the purpose except to place guilt? She hasn't done anything wrong so there's no explanation for showing her something disgusting like that or even the ultrasound. There's no logic behind it. It IS manipulating her to feel she is doing something wrong. That's creating a guilt where there should not be one. If someone is going into an abortion clinic thinking she's killing a baby, then she shouldn't be there. You can't justify killing another person, that WOULD be murder. It's just not a person yet so no guilt should be involved, imo. However, supporting the war does mean supporting the consequences of it (killing other peopele) and guilt should be placed on those who support it for what it has caused (thousand of lives lost and families torn apart). There are no consequences of abortion except for not being pregnant anymore. You've only affected your life. One, I consider to be wrong (the war, killing people) and the other (abortion, discarding a fetus) I don't.

Iraq was and is wrong and I feel people shouldn't shut up about that until we are outta there. That's my opinion. If you don't want to be face to face with the consequences of it...maybe you should rethink your stance.

*sigh*

how many times must i point out in this thread that i do not and never have supported the war? it's ironic how the liberals who blast bush for the "if you're not with us you're against us speech" use the same tactics. if you dont swallow their spunk, you're clearly a war-monger. if you're not standing on a rooftop screaming about how outrageous the world is and how americans are murdering bastards, then you must love to murder innocent iraqis. and if you dare disagree with some of the leftist rhetoric, you're probably part of dick cheney's evil plan. :rolleyes:

i feel no guilt becos i did not ever support this war so i accept no responsibility for what is going on over there. now analyze the aboriton analogy. you say:

"She hasn't done anything wrong so there's no explanation for showing her something disgusting like that or even the ultrasound. It IS manipulating her to feel she is doing something wrong. That's creating a guilt where there should not be one."

now i know it's impossible for you to remove yourself from your own ideology and try to see the world from someone else's perspective, but try with me. to someone who is a war supporter and feels that we were justified in going to iraq and belong there, this is how it looks:

"He hasn't done anything wrong so there's no explanation for showing him something disgusting like that or even the statistics. There's no logic behind it. It IS manipulating him to feel he is doing something wrong. That's creating a guilt where there should not be one."

if someone thinks we are right to be fighting this war, throwing these stats at them won't change anything. they will just say war sucks and sometimes innocent people get hurt. it wont change a damn thing. you feel there is nothing inherently wrong with abortion, they feel there is nothing inherently wrong with a just war. you think it's wrong for them to try to manipulate you into guilt over the abortion, they will think it's wrong for you to try to manipulate them into guilt over a just war.

the point being, this does nothing but alienate the people you are trying to persuade. until you convince them the war is unjust, they are going to ignore or write off the "collateral damage."

Abookamongstthemany

soulsinging wrote:

*sigh*

how many times must i point out in this thread that i do not and never have supported the war? it's ironic how the liberals who blast bush for the "if you're not with us you're against us speech" use the same tactics. if you dont swallow their spunk, you're clearly a war-monger. if you're not standing on a rooftop screaming about how outrageous the world is and how americans are murdering bastards, then you must love to murder innocent iraqis. and if you dare disagree with some of the leftist rhetoric, you're probably part of dick cheney's evil plan. :rolleyes:

i feel no guilt becos i did not ever support this war so i accept no responsibility for what is going on over there. now analyze the aboriton analogy. you say:

"She hasn't done anything wrong so there's no explanation for showing her something disgusting like that or even the ultrasound. It IS manipulating her to feel she is doing something wrong. That's creating a guilt where there should not be one."

now i know it's impossible for you to remove yourself from your own ideology and try to see the world from someone else's perspective, but try with me. to someone who is a war supporter and feels that we were justified in going to iraq and belong there, this is how it looks:

"He hasn't done anything wrong so there's no explanation for showing him something disgusting like that or even the statistics. There's no logic behind it. It IS manipulating him to feel he is doing something wrong. That's creating a guilt where there should not be one."

if someone thinks we are right to be fighting this war, throwing these stats at them won't change anything. they will just say war sucks and sometimes innocent people get hurt. it wont change a damn thing. you feel there is nothing inherently wrong with abortion, they feel there is nothing inherently wrong with a just war. you think it's wrong for them to try to manipulate you into guilt over the abortion, they will think it's wrong for you to try to manipulate them into guilt over a just war.

the point being, this does nothing but alienate the people you are trying to persuade. until you convince them the war is unjust, they are going to ignore or write off the "collateral damage."

I was speaking more in general....just to clear this up. As people who support the war vs people getting abortions.

There isn't a lot of people who would choose to support a war no matter what the deathtoll. 600,000 is way too damn much, especially for a war that isn't solving anything. War creates death, not too many support at all costs. We see decline in support for it more everyday. The aren't too many people getting abortions and viewing it as killing something so the comparision doesn't hold water.

cornnifer

soulsinging wrote:

i dont know... you think id already feel that way about my brothers and parents. but death is not a big deal. i esp dont understand why christians are so torn up about it... you get to go to heaven right? and if there is no heaven, then we become dust and dont even remember living. in either case, death is not unpleasant for the dead person, so it's selfish of me to moan about them not being where i want them to be. but that's a whole other thread.

As far as brothers and parents, it just isn't the same. Its TOTALLY different. Unexplainable, really. You have to experience it.
As far as the other stuff. Yes, death is a natural thing and i'm not "torn up" about it, however, there is nothing blase about 600,000 dead innocents. Mothers, fathers, husbands, wives, and children.

soulsinging

cornnifer wrote:

As far as brothers and parents, it just isn't the same. Its TOTALLY different. Unexplainable, really. You have to experience it.
As far as the other stuff. Yes, death is a natural thing and i'm not "torn up" about it, however, there is nothing blase about 600,000 dead innocents. Mothers, fathers, husbands, wives, and children.

im just desensitized then. nothing humans do to each other shocks me anymore.

soulsinging

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

I was speaking more in general....just to clear this up. As people who support the war vs people getting abortions.

There isn't a lot of people who would choose to support a war no matter what the deathtoll. 600,000 is way too damn much, especially for a war that isn't solving anything. War creates death, not too many support at all costs. We see decline in support for it more everyday. The aren't too many people getting abortions and viewing it as killing something so the comparision doesn't hold water.

fair enough. i know support is declining, i guess i was just annoyed becos his schtick gets as old as some of the other folks around here.

cincybearcat

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

I was speaking more in general....just to clear this up. As people who support the war vs people getting abortions.

There isn't a lot of people who would choose to support a war no matter what the deathtoll. 600,000 is way too damn much, especially for a war that isn't solving anything. War creates death, not too many support at all costs. We see decline in support for it more everyday. The aren't too many people getting abortions and viewing it as killing something so the comparision doesn't hold water.

Out of sight, out of mind. It is quite interesting to see where people fall on these 2 issues.

down_ski

my2hands wrote:

this study takes into account deaths that have resulted because of the invasion.


i find it funny that after we invade, destroy the fucking place, and slaughter everything in sight (see "shock and awe") we start to blame others for the mess and death toll. nice try chrom, it doesnt fly with me.

Slaughter EVERYTHING in sight?

Give me a fucking break, you know nothing about this war. You just joined the "Liberal Train" for the ride. Do a little research before you start barking your know-nothing mouth on a fucking Pearl Jam forum. This sort of shit just bothers me, our men and women over there are not doing that sort of thing. And if you said that in front of one of them (man or woman) i'd hope they would kick the living shit out of you.

And Plus, this article is from a UK source, not reliable....

gue_barium

down_ski wrote:

Slaughter EVERYTHING in sight?

Give me a fucking break, you know nothing about this war. You just joined the "Liberal Train" for the ride. Do a little research before you start barking your know-nothing mouth on a fucking Pearl Jam forum. This sort of shit just bothers me, our men and women over there are not doing that sort of thing. And if you said that in front of one of them (man or woman) i'd hope they would kick the living shit out of you.

And Plus, this article is from a UK source, not reliable....

I think it says the stats lie somewhere between 300-900,000 civilians lives lost. Even if you take the 300, 000 it seems rather extreme doesn't it? If you are denying that the US hasn't killed a number of innocent Iraqi civilians, then I have to say you know nothing about this war.

El_Kabong

polaris wrote:

you probably did ... most of these organizations have ties to big multi-nationals ...

and they traced some of that missing $8or 9 BILLION that went missing in iraq to funding the insurgency

Rushlimbo

down_ski wrote:

Slaughter EVERYTHING in sight?

Give me a fucking break, you know nothing about this war. You just joined the "Liberal Train" for the ride. Do a little research before you start barking your know-nothing mouth on a fucking Pearl Jam forum. This sort of shit just bothers me, our men and women over there are not doing that sort of thing. And if you said that in front of one of them (man or woman) i'd hope they would kick the living shit out of you.

And Plus, this article is from a UK source, not reliable....

Hehehe. You need to open your eyes before you browbeat someone for speaking the truth. Dont be a chump your entire life.