I don't understand the whole emotional problem. What is there to feel guilt about? Maybe they are saddened by what could have been? I don't know. Holding up a bloody blob would infer that the woman has did something wrong, why else would you show it to her? The same can be said for showing her the ultrsound. What's the purpose except to place guilt? She hasn't done anything wrong so there's no explanation for showing her something disgusting like that or even the ultrasound. There's no logic behind it. It IS manipulating her to feel she is doing something wrong. That's creating a guilt where there should not be one. If someone is going into an abortion clinic thinking she's killing a baby, then she shouldn't be there. You can't justify killing another person, that WOULD be murder. It's just not a person yet so no guilt should be involved, imo. However, supporting the war does mean supporting the consequences of it (killing other peopele) and guilt should be placed on those who support it for what it has caused (thousand of lives lost and families torn apart). There are no consequences of abortion except for not being pregnant anymore. You've only affected your life. One, I consider to be wrong (the war, killing people) and the other (abortion, discarding a fetus) I don't.
Iraq was and is wrong and I feel people shouldn't shut up about that until we are outta there. That's my opinion. If you don't want to be face to face with the consequences of it...maybe you should rethink your stance.
*sigh*
how many times must i point out in this thread that i do not and never have supported the war? it's ironic how the liberals who blast bush for the "if you're not with us you're against us speech" use the same tactics. if you dont swallow their spunk, you're clearly a war-monger. if you're not standing on a rooftop screaming about how outrageous the world is and how americans are murdering bastards, then you must love to murder innocent iraqis. and if you dare disagree with some of the leftist rhetoric, you're probably part of dick cheney's evil plan. :rolleyes:
i feel no guilt becos i did not ever support this war so i accept no responsibility for what is going on over there. now analyze the aboriton analogy. you say:
"She hasn't done anything wrong so there's no explanation for showing her something disgusting like that or even the ultrasound. It IS manipulating her to feel she is doing something wrong. That's creating a guilt where there should not be one."
now i know it's impossible for you to remove yourself from your own ideology and try to see the world from someone else's perspective, but try with me. to someone who is a war supporter and feels that we were justified in going to iraq and belong there, this is how it looks:
"He hasn't done anything wrong so there's no explanation for showing him something disgusting like that or even the statistics. There's no logic behind it. It IS manipulating him to feel he is doing something wrong. That's creating a guilt where there should not be one."
if someone thinks we are right to be fighting this war, throwing these stats at them won't change anything. they will just say war sucks and sometimes innocent people get hurt. it wont change a damn thing. you feel there is nothing inherently wrong with abortion, they feel there is nothing inherently wrong with a just war. you think it's wrong for them to try to manipulate you into guilt over the abortion, they will think it's wrong for you to try to manipulate them into guilt over a just war.
the point being, this does nothing but alienate the people you are trying to persuade. until you convince them the war is unjust, they are going to ignore or write off the "collateral damage."
how many times must i point out in this thread that i do not and never have supported the war? it's ironic how the liberals who blast bush for the "if you're not with us you're against us speech" use the same tactics. if you dont swallow their spunk, you're clearly a war-monger. if you're not standing on a rooftop screaming about how outrageous the world is and how americans are murdering bastards, then you must love to murder innocent iraqis. and if you dare disagree with some of the leftist rhetoric, you're probably part of dick cheney's evil plan. :rolleyes:
i feel no guilt becos i did not ever support this war so i accept no responsibility for what is going on over there. now analyze the aboriton analogy. you say:
"She hasn't done anything wrong so there's no explanation for showing her something disgusting like that or even the ultrasound. It IS manipulating her to feel she is doing something wrong. That's creating a guilt where there should not be one."
now i know it's impossible for you to remove yourself from your own ideology and try to see the world from someone else's perspective, but try with me. to someone who is a war supporter and feels that we were justified in going to iraq and belong there, this is how it looks:
"He hasn't done anything wrong so there's no explanation for showing him something disgusting like that or even the statistics. There's no logic behind it. It IS manipulating him to feel he is doing something wrong. That's creating a guilt where there should not be one."
if someone thinks we are right to be fighting this war, throwing these stats at them won't change anything. they will just say war sucks and sometimes innocent people get hurt. it wont change a damn thing. you feel there is nothing inherently wrong with abortion, they feel there is nothing inherently wrong with a just war. you think it's wrong for them to try to manipulate you into guilt over the abortion, they will think it's wrong for you to try to manipulate them into guilt over a just war.
the point being, this does nothing but alienate the people you are trying to persuade. until you convince them the war is unjust, they are going to ignore or write off the "collateral damage."
I was speaking more in general....just to clear this up. As people who support the war vs people getting abortions.
There isn't a lot of people who would choose to support a war no matter what the deathtoll. 600,000 is way too damn much, especially for a war that isn't solving anything. War creates death, not too many support at all costs. We see decline in support for it more everyday. The aren't too many people getting abortions and viewing it as killing something so the comparision doesn't hold water.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
i dont know... you think id already feel that way about my brothers and parents. but death is not a big deal. i esp dont understand why christians are so torn up about it... you get to go to heaven right? and if there is no heaven, then we become dust and dont even remember living. in either case, death is not unpleasant for the dead person, so it's selfish of me to moan about them not being where i want them to be. but that's a whole other thread.
As far as brothers and parents, it just isn't the same. Its TOTALLY different. Unexplainable, really. You have to experience it.
As far as the other stuff. Yes, death is a natural thing and i'm not "torn up" about it, however, there is nothing blase about 600,000 dead innocents. Mothers, fathers, husbands, wives, and children.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
As far as brothers and parents, it just isn't the same. Its TOTALLY different. Unexplainable, really. You have to experience it.
As far as the other stuff. Yes, death is a natural thing and i'm not "torn up" about it, however, there is nothing blase about 600,000 dead innocents. Mothers, fathers, husbands, wives, and children.
im just desensitized then. nothing humans do to each other shocks me anymore.
I was speaking more in general....just to clear this up. As people who support the war vs people getting abortions.
There isn't a lot of people who would choose to support a war no matter what the deathtoll. 600,000 is way too damn much, especially for a war that isn't solving anything. War creates death, not too many support at all costs. We see decline in support for it more everyday. The aren't too many people getting abortions and viewing it as killing something so the comparision doesn't hold water.
fair enough. i know support is declining, i guess i was just annoyed becos his schtick gets as old as some of the other folks around here.
I was speaking more in general....just to clear this up. As people who support the war vs people getting abortions.
There isn't a lot of people who would choose to support a war no matter what the deathtoll. 600,000 is way too damn much, especially for a war that isn't solving anything. War creates death, not too many support at all costs. We see decline in support for it more everyday. The aren't too many people getting abortions and viewing it as killing something so the comparision doesn't hold water.
Out of sight, out of mind. It is quite interesting to see where people fall on these 2 issues.
this study takes into account deaths that have resulted because of the invasion.
i find it funny that after we invade, destroy the fucking place, and slaughter everything in sight (see "shock and awe") we start to blame others for the mess and death toll. nice try chrom, it doesnt fly with me.
Slaughter EVERYTHING in sight?
Give me a fucking break, you know nothing about this war. You just joined the "Liberal Train" for the ride. Do a little research before you start barking your know-nothing mouth on a fucking Pearl Jam forum. This sort of shit just bothers me, our men and women over there are not doing that sort of thing. And if you said that in front of one of them (man or woman) i'd hope they would kick the living shit out of you.
And Plus, this article is from a UK source, not reliable....
Give me a fucking break, you know nothing about this war. You just joined the "Liberal Train" for the ride. Do a little research before you start barking your know-nothing mouth on a fucking Pearl Jam forum. This sort of shit just bothers me, our men and women over there are not doing that sort of thing. And if you said that in front of one of them (man or woman) i'd hope they would kick the living shit out of you.
And Plus, this article is from a UK source, not reliable....
I think it says the stats lie somewhere between 300-900,000 civilians lives lost. Even if you take the 300, 000 it seems rather extreme doesn't it? If you are denying that the US hasn't killed a number of innocent Iraqi civilians, then I have to say you know nothing about this war.
you probably did ... most of these organizations have ties to big multi-nationals ...
and they traced some of that missing $8or 9 BILLION that went missing in iraq to funding the insurgency
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Give me a fucking break, you know nothing about this war. You just joined the "Liberal Train" for the ride. Do a little research before you start barking your know-nothing mouth on a fucking Pearl Jam forum. This sort of shit just bothers me, our men and women over there are not doing that sort of thing. And if you said that in front of one of them (man or woman) i'd hope they would kick the living shit out of you.
And Plus, this article is from a UK source, not reliable....
Hehehe. You need to open your eyes before you browbeat someone for speaking the truth. Dont be a chump your entire life.
War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength
i am responsible for the financing of 600,000 dead civilians. makes me feel real good about my government, and my federal taxes. even if we dont support the war, we are all supporting it financially. how does that make you feel?
Well if it makes you feel any better. Your government in a run around kind of way, funded the boys who were on your side against the Russians once upon a time. So you also help to fund 911. Now that is funny as hell. But somebody here will try and spin that into a different story. You fund quite a few nasty things that happen around the old blue marble.
that's what you like to think or believe ... you think bin laden is some poor shmuck? ... he's got business assets around the world - i think one of them is a sugar manufacturer in Sudan which most of the soft drink companies use in their products ... the ties to big multi-nationals are all over the place ...
that's what you like to think or believe ... you think bin laden is some poor shmuck? ... he's got business assets around the world - i think one of them is a sugar manufacturer in Sudan which most of the soft drink companies use in their products ... the ties to big multi-nationals are all over the place ...
you clearly bent over, hands on the floor, and spoke directly out of your ass, and it stinks. but thank you for the financial lesson.
bin laden is not funding sunnis blowing up shittes or shittes blowing up sunnis.
and war itself is inevitable. humans have been fighting them since we figured out if we killed someone else we have more for ourselves. and we will continue to fight wars until the sun implodes and swallows the earth. trying to fight only just wars is admirable and trying to minimize civilian deaths is imperative, but if you think that somehow protesting george bush will end innocent deaths in wars you are unqualified for any sort of intelligent debate. it has always happened and it always will.
i completely disagree, take a look at the history of recent wars our country has been involved with. each and every time the select few representing elite interests have had to lie, spin, and miseducate the public to "trick" them into supporting the war... people do not want to wage war, and average people certainly dont want to wage war bc they are always the ones that are affected in the worst ways. everyone supports peace, and i do mean everyone.
take Iraq for example, look at the lies that had to be spoonfed, look at the spin that had to take place, look at the propganda campaigns that had to be forced down the populaces throats just to convince them to support the war...they were told about 9/11 ties, WMD, that it would be quick and easy, that we would be greeted as hero's, that the smoking gun could be a "mushroom cloud"... and this was all done to invade a country that had a leader the american public believed was the second coming of satan... if i remember correctly the Iraq war had HISTORY'S LARGEST PRE-WAR DEMONSTRATION speaking out against it... after all the lies and spin, the polls showed only approx 60% support for the invasion... and of course after the lies are revealed the approval is almost minimal, held onto by only the extremely hawkish individuals.
Vietnam was the same, lies, propaganda, spin... and once the american public FINALLY woke up and could see through all the smoke this country was almost ripped apart becasue of it and the outrage towards the war.
we have only been around for a few thousand years, we have just made advances in civil, womens, labor, children, and racial rights within the last 100 years.
so you may see war as inevetable, I see that the end of war is inevetable.
Man has greatly evolved from our primitive, animalistic behavior in the beginings. We used to be ok with so much that is unthinkable to support and carryout nowdays. We grown at a constant rate away from violence over time. Remember burning people at the stake, gunfights/duels in the streets, medieval torture, etc? We will continue to evolve past the thinking that killing each other is any kind of answer to our problems....and war will phase itself out as we evolve into more intelligent beings with better methods of communication and problem solving.
this girl should be running for office, and i am dead serious.
so you believe that the US is funding the sunni/shitte violence? and Iran and Syria have little or no role in it?
there are many interests being played out in iraq right now ... some geo-political and some strictly business oriented ... all in all - their goals are the same ... political, economic and societal instability for the foreseeable future ...
either way - the point is tho that if you want to think your hands are clean of what's going on there - i'd say your mistaken ... just as i would be ...
there are many interests being played out in iraq right now ... some geo-political and some strictly business oriented ... all in all - their goals are the same ... political, economic and societal instability for the foreseeable future ...
either way - the point is tho that if you want to think your hands are clean of what's going on there - i'd say your mistaken ... just as i would be ...
of course our hands aren't clean of the mess in Iraq. but Iran, Syria, and the Iraqis themselves have to take responsibility for much of the death that is going on there.
Give me a fucking break, you know nothing about this war. You just joined the "Liberal Train" for the ride. Do a little research before you start barking your know-nothing mouth on a fucking Pearl Jam forum. This sort of shit just bothers me, our men and women over there are not doing that sort of thing. And if you said that in front of one of them (man or woman) i'd hope they would kick the living shit out of you.
And Plus, this article is from a UK source, not reliable....
perhaps you missed the non-stop bombardment of Baghdad to begin this war (shock and awe)... Baghdad is a city of 8,000,000 people, i repeat Baghdad is a city of 8 MILLION people. i think we can call that slaughtering everything in sight, except it was done from 10,000 feet and the persian gulf.
thanks for the enlightenment that we are over there selling girl scout cookies and lemonade :rolleyes:
of course our hands aren't clean of the mess in Iraq. but Iran, Syria, and the Iraqis themselves have to take responsibility for much of the death that is going on there.
typical, we smash the fucking place, take out all the infratstructure and then blame everyone else for the ensuing chaos. i dont buy it
typical, we smash the fucking place, take out all the infratstructure and then blame everyone else for the ensuing chaos. i dont buy it
"you break it, you own it" ~~ Colin Powell
not blaming everyone else. they SHARE the responsibility for the chaos. its not american soldiers killing all these people. they are doing it to themselves.
of course our hands aren't clean of the mess in Iraq. but Iran, Syria, and the Iraqis themselves have to take responsibility for much of the death that is going on there.
i'm talking about specifically about where your dollars end up whether it be in taxes or in consumer spending ...
Comments
*sigh*
how many times must i point out in this thread that i do not and never have supported the war? it's ironic how the liberals who blast bush for the "if you're not with us you're against us speech" use the same tactics. if you dont swallow their spunk, you're clearly a war-monger. if you're not standing on a rooftop screaming about how outrageous the world is and how americans are murdering bastards, then you must love to murder innocent iraqis. and if you dare disagree with some of the leftist rhetoric, you're probably part of dick cheney's evil plan. :rolleyes:
i feel no guilt becos i did not ever support this war so i accept no responsibility for what is going on over there. now analyze the aboriton analogy. you say:
"She hasn't done anything wrong so there's no explanation for showing her something disgusting like that or even the ultrasound. It IS manipulating her to feel she is doing something wrong. That's creating a guilt where there should not be one."
now i know it's impossible for you to remove yourself from your own ideology and try to see the world from someone else's perspective, but try with me. to someone who is a war supporter and feels that we were justified in going to iraq and belong there, this is how it looks:
"He hasn't done anything wrong so there's no explanation for showing him something disgusting like that or even the statistics. There's no logic behind it. It IS manipulating him to feel he is doing something wrong. That's creating a guilt where there should not be one."
if someone thinks we are right to be fighting this war, throwing these stats at them won't change anything. they will just say war sucks and sometimes innocent people get hurt. it wont change a damn thing. you feel there is nothing inherently wrong with abortion, they feel there is nothing inherently wrong with a just war. you think it's wrong for them to try to manipulate you into guilt over the abortion, they will think it's wrong for you to try to manipulate them into guilt over a just war.
the point being, this does nothing but alienate the people you are trying to persuade. until you convince them the war is unjust, they are going to ignore or write off the "collateral damage."
I was speaking more in general....just to clear this up. As people who support the war vs people getting abortions.
There isn't a lot of people who would choose to support a war no matter what the deathtoll. 600,000 is way too damn much, especially for a war that isn't solving anything. War creates death, not too many support at all costs. We see decline in support for it more everyday. The aren't too many people getting abortions and viewing it as killing something so the comparision doesn't hold water.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
As far as brothers and parents, it just isn't the same. Its TOTALLY different. Unexplainable, really. You have to experience it.
As far as the other stuff. Yes, death is a natural thing and i'm not "torn up" about it, however, there is nothing blase about 600,000 dead innocents. Mothers, fathers, husbands, wives, and children.
im just desensitized then. nothing humans do to each other shocks me anymore.
fair enough. i know support is declining, i guess i was just annoyed becos his schtick gets as old as some of the other folks around here.
Out of sight, out of mind. It is quite interesting to see where people fall on these 2 issues.
Slaughter EVERYTHING in sight?
Give me a fucking break, you know nothing about this war. You just joined the "Liberal Train" for the ride. Do a little research before you start barking your know-nothing mouth on a fucking Pearl Jam forum. This sort of shit just bothers me, our men and women over there are not doing that sort of thing. And if you said that in front of one of them (man or woman) i'd hope they would kick the living shit out of you.
And Plus, this article is from a UK source, not reliable....
I think it says the stats lie somewhere between 300-900,000 civilians lives lost. Even if you take the 300, 000 it seems rather extreme doesn't it? If you are denying that the US hasn't killed a number of innocent Iraqi civilians, then I have to say you know nothing about this war.
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and they traced some of that missing $8or 9 BILLION that went missing in iraq to funding the insurgency
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Hehehe. You need to open your eyes before you browbeat someone for speaking the truth. Dont be a chump your entire life.
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength
That's a human problem, not an American problem.
That is true.. but America panders and profits from human problems - rather that understand them and foster improvement.
Well if it makes you feel any better. Your government in a run around kind of way, funded the boys who were on your side against the Russians once upon a time. So you also help to fund 911. Now that is funny as hell. But somebody here will try and spin that into a different story.
of course ... you can't profit from war without the need for war ...
people still believe this is about liberation, freedom or WMD??
me neither
that's what you like to think or believe ... you think bin laden is some poor shmuck? ... he's got business assets around the world - i think one of them is a sugar manufacturer in Sudan which most of the soft drink companies use in their products ... the ties to big multi-nationals are all over the place ...
you clearly bent over, hands on the floor, and spoke directly out of your ass, and it stinks. but thank you for the financial lesson.
bin laden is not funding sunnis blowing up shittes or shittes blowing up sunnis.
you're right ... that's the american gov't ... the example was more for terrorist funding in general ...
wrong again. 0 for 2. try Iran and Syria.
whatever helps you sleep at nite i guess
so you believe that the US is funding the sunni/shitte violence? and Iran and Syria have little or no role in it?
Iran and Syria have a huge role.. and we are afraid to talk to them
i completely disagree, take a look at the history of recent wars our country has been involved with. each and every time the select few representing elite interests have had to lie, spin, and miseducate the public to "trick" them into supporting the war... people do not want to wage war, and average people certainly dont want to wage war bc they are always the ones that are affected in the worst ways. everyone supports peace, and i do mean everyone.
take Iraq for example, look at the lies that had to be spoonfed, look at the spin that had to take place, look at the propganda campaigns that had to be forced down the populaces throats just to convince them to support the war...they were told about 9/11 ties, WMD, that it would be quick and easy, that we would be greeted as hero's, that the smoking gun could be a "mushroom cloud"... and this was all done to invade a country that had a leader the american public believed was the second coming of satan... if i remember correctly the Iraq war had HISTORY'S LARGEST PRE-WAR DEMONSTRATION speaking out against it... after all the lies and spin, the polls showed only approx 60% support for the invasion... and of course after the lies are revealed the approval is almost minimal, held onto by only the extremely hawkish individuals.
Vietnam was the same, lies, propaganda, spin... and once the american public FINALLY woke up and could see through all the smoke this country was almost ripped apart becasue of it and the outrage towards the war.
we have only been around for a few thousand years, we have just made advances in civil, womens, labor, children, and racial rights within the last 100 years.
so you may see war as inevetable, I see that the end of war is inevetable.
this girl should be running for office, and i am dead serious.
well said
there are many interests being played out in iraq right now ... some geo-political and some strictly business oriented ... all in all - their goals are the same ... political, economic and societal instability for the foreseeable future ...
either way - the point is tho that if you want to think your hands are clean of what's going on there - i'd say your mistaken ... just as i would be ...
of course our hands aren't clean of the mess in Iraq. but Iran, Syria, and the Iraqis themselves have to take responsibility for much of the death that is going on there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Phantom_Fury
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_rape_case
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_and_awe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ramadi_%282006%29
perhaps you missed the non-stop bombardment of Baghdad to begin this war (shock and awe)... Baghdad is a city of 8,000,000 people, i repeat Baghdad is a city of 8 MILLION people. i think we can call that slaughtering everything in sight, except it was done from 10,000 feet and the persian gulf.
thanks for the enlightenment that we are over there selling girl scout cookies and lemonade :rolleyes:
typical, we smash the fucking place, take out all the infratstructure and then blame everyone else for the ensuing chaos. i dont buy it
"you break it, you own it" ~~ Colin Powell
not blaming everyone else. they SHARE the responsibility for the chaos. its not american soldiers killing all these people. they are doing it to themselves.
i'm talking about specifically about where your dollars end up whether it be in taxes or in consumer spending ...