more kids shot in US schools... awesome gun laws!!!

Pearl Jam and toast

lucylespian wrote:

Yeah dude, but you gotta start somewhere, as I said, just cause it's hard, don't mean it shouldn't happen. You do live in a different culture, you have a gun culture through and through !! You worship them, you glamourise them, you trivilaise them, you totally ignore how many people they kill, you refuse to even consider for a second how un-necessary thay are. Whem I was a teenager I had a passing interest in them, teh skill involved and how closely they relate to evolving elements of primitive manhood, being powerful and a successful provider in a tribal environment, but I got over it as I matured, realising they have no place in a civilised world today.

I agree with your point of view, but I just can't see the banning route being at all effective (honestly, I see it making the problem much worse as I said) in the US.



Everything led to those things according to Frued :rolleyes:

Posting on a message pit.... It means you want to sleep with your mother

Heineken Helen

Pearl Jam and toast wrote:

I agree with your point of view, but I just can't see the banning route being at all effective (honestly, I see it making the problem much worse as I said) in the US.



Everything led to those things according to Frued :rolleyes:

Posting on a message pit.... It means you want to sleep with your mother

I don't understand the idea that 'well the outlaws will still get them anyway' . So why not just make the law on THEIR side and GIVE them the gun when they open a new bank account??? Nah, I don't follow that.

Yes, there are guns in circulation but it makes it easier to spot the illegal ones when they're ALL illegal.

rebornFixer

Broken record ...

rebornFixer

Heineken Helen wrote:

I

Yes, there are guns in circulation but it makes it easier to spot the illegal ones when they're ALL illegal.

Um, care to explain the logic behind this comment?

Scratchin a Letter

what makes me laugh is that most gun owners say the reson they have a gun is for protection. Prtoection from what? Protection from other people with guns. It's just a cycle of violence.

And no, banning guns wouldnt solve the problem. Crack is illegal but still thousands of people manage to get hold of it.

negationist

a very good article by Joachim J. Savelsberg in the New York Law School Journal of International and Comparative Law. It's quite a good read and it explains (or tries to) the differences in gun-laws in America and Germany and the social outcomes that occur because of this. It's good coz i think it takes into account the socioeconomic perspective as well. Heres the link:

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Savelsberg1.html

Just a summary of the last paragraph for people who don't intend to look it up, bearing in mind that gun law is much stricter in germany than it is in america:

'Let me get back to my original question before I draw a few brief conclusions. Why is there so much less gun violence in Germany? Does gun control have anything to do with it, or is it due to other differences, such as criminal punishment, societal and cultural differences? Concluding answer one: the lower rate of gun violence in Germany, especially after the 1972 law, is not the result of a tougher criminal justice system. If anything, the opposite is true. Concluding answer two: this leaves primarily two possible explanations: gun control and society. I think there are a lot of reasons to argue that in combination, both society, which determines the inclination of people to commit violent crimes, and very liberal gun control, which makes violent means available to people in a society, are what contribute to this excessive and extremely high rate of violent crime and gun violence in American society. Finally, while sociological factors and interaction effects between sociological factors and violent means are very important, I think that the German case also suggests an independent effect of gun control, and I have given some empirical data to that account.'

rebornFixer

negationist wrote:

a very good article by Joachim J. Savelsberg in the New York Law School Journal of International and Comparative Law. It's quite a good read and it explains (or tries to) the differences in gun-laws in America and Germany and the social outcomes that occur because of this. It's good coz i think it takes into account the socioeconomic perspective as well. Heres the link:

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Savelsberg1.html

Just a summary of the last paragraph for people who don't intend to look it up, bearing in mind that gun law is much stricter in germany than it is in america:

'Let me get back to my original question before I draw a few brief conclusions. Why is there so much less gun violence in Germany? Does gun control have anything to do with it, or is it due to other differences, such as criminal punishment, societal and cultural differences? Concluding answer one: the lower rate of gun violence in Germany, especially after the 1972 law, is not the result of a tougher criminal justice system. If anything, the opposite is true. Concluding answer two: this leaves primarily two possible explanations: gun control and society. I think there are a lot of reasons to argue that in combination, both society, which determines the inclination of people to commit violent crimes, and very liberal gun control, which makes violent means available to people in a society, are what contribute to this excessive and extremely high rate of violent crime and gun violence in American society. Finally, while sociological factors and interaction effects between sociological factors and violent means are very important, I think that the German case also suggests an independent effect of gun control, and I have given some empirical data to that account.'

But we still need to be careful here ... Some degree of gun control is likely to save lives. But this piece does not make it super-clear what degree is appropriate. Is it also unclear if a) super restrictive gun control laws that may work in germany will work everywhere and b) what is the direction of causality? Tougher gun controls could simply reflect shifting societal attitudes, rather than causing such a shift.
I am not convinced that there is indeed an "independent effect of gun control", in Germany or anywhere else. Some gun control just makes sense. But this notion that making the laws super-harsh is beneficial? Very little data provide good support.

lucylespian

Why do we need to be careful ? Do you mean that gun control might encroach on your civil rights. What about the right to come home safe at the end of the day? What about the right to eat your lunch at school without your brains being blown out?
No guns equals no gun crime !!

WindNoSail

dunkman1974 wrote:

so cool.... guns are the awesomest!!!!

they should advertise them for sale with the slogan

"for those of you who cant get erections, throw away the Viagra and buy a fucking gun"


bunch of pussies hiding behind guns... penile extensions for those fuckheads that need them!!


so as yet more innocent children die, there faces splattered against the blackboard, rest assured that you have that small pistol beside in order to form that militia, if the need arise, to take on your government.... you'll be too fucking busy to form a militia anyway, theres a lot of schools in America and they'll take a while to target!!

Yawn.....

Anyone who thinks that the law is why we have gun violence has lost all ability to judge with common sense......

If you start to seriously analyze it, (in the US) more crimes have been stopped by personal gun owners than crimes committed by legal gun owners....think about it.

Hint: most crimes involving guns are committed by ILLEGAL gun owners so therefore the law has already been broken and a new law doesn't change anything.....

lucylespian

WindNoSail wrote:

Yawn.....

Anyone who thinks that the law is why we have gun violence has lost all ability to judge with common sense......

If you start to seriously analyze it, (in the US) more crimes have been stopped by personal gun owners than crimes committed by legal gun owners....think about it.

Hint: most crimes involving guns are committed by ILLEGAL gun owners so therefore the law has already been broken and a new law doesn't change anything.....

Yep, I can see that, so we should have even more guns, that means less crime.
More crimes stopped by legal gun owners ??< What a crock of shit !!
Actually, when you analyse it, you are more likely to be shot if you are holding a gun than if you aren't.
And you can't avoid the fact that 6000 Americans die a year from gun crime !!
And you still support guns, MADNESS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WindNoSail

lucylespian wrote:

Yep, I can see that, so we should have even more guns, that means less crime.
More crimes stopped by legal gun owners ??< What a crock of shit !!
Actually, when you analyse it, you are more likely to be shot if you are holding a gun than if you aren't.
And you can't avoid the fact that 6000 Americans die a year from gun crime !!
And you still support guns, MADNESS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are obviously not even able to consider the fact that violence is not a gun thing, it is a people thing....it is so clear but to the stupid; gun laws don't make people safer, ever. Show me a stat that says I am wrong and show me one nation where the violence has decreased after gun laws were put in place that removed private ownership. You can't, I know you can't but you won't admit to it because you are more about propoganda than reality. I have no patience for idiots.

I own a gun, in fact I got two, but i have never used it in a crime.

dunkman

WindNoSail wrote:

Yawn.....

Anyone who thinks that the law is why we have gun violence has lost all ability to judge with common sense......

If you start to seriously analyze it, (in the US) more crimes have been stopped by personal gun owners than crimes committed by legal gun owners....think about it.

Hint: most crimes involving guns are committed by ILLEGAL gun owners so therefore the law has already been broken and a new law doesn't change anything.....

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

*wakes up to find another post of fantastic ignorance*


zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

dunkman

WindNoSail wrote:

You are obviously not even able to consider the fact that violence is not a gun thing, it is a people thing....it is so clear but to the stupid; gun laws don't make people safer, ever. Show me a stat that says I am wrong and show me one nation where the violence has decreased after gun laws were put in place that removed private ownership. You can't, I know you can't but you won't admit to it because you are more about propoganda than reality. I have no patience for idiots.

Drop in gun crime figures
23/09/2003

Statistics published today show a two per cent fall in the number of offences involving firearms, bringing the 2002 level to 48 per cent lower than in 1992.


Justice Minister Cathy Jamieson today welcomed the drop in the number of firearm offences reported last year.

Ms Jamieson said:

"We are working to deliver a safer, strongerScotland. I welcome the fact that in the last ten years the number of crimes involving firearms has reduced considerably.


The total number of recorded crimes and offences involving the alleged use of a firearm decreased from 1,773 in 1993 to 1,014 in 2002, a decrease of 43 per cent.

The number of homicides decreased from eight in 1993 to three in 2002, and attempted murders nearly halved from 44 in 1993 to 24 in 2002.

In 2002, 20 incidents involved the alleged use of a shotgun, less than one tenth of the 255 such incidents recorded in 1993 and the lowest figure ever recorded.

Incidents where a firearm was fired and damaged property more than halved from 654 in 1993 to 312 in 2002, and the number of occasions when a firearm was used to threaten has decreased by two thirds from 594 to 195 between 1993 and 2002.

The percentage of crimes and offences cleared up has increased over the last 10 years, currently standing at 51 per cent of all firearm incidents recorded compared to 39 per cent in 1993.




all this after a ban was introduced

dunkman

WindNoSail wrote:

You are obviously not even able to consider the fact that violence is not a gun thing, it is a people thing....it is so clear but to the stupid; gun laws don't make people safer, ever. Show me a stat that says I am wrong and show me one nation where the violence has decreased after gun laws were put in place that removed private ownership. You can't, I know you can't but you won't admit to it because you are more about propoganda than reality. I have no patience for idiots.

I own a gun, in fact I got two, but i have never used it in a crime.

In contrast to England and Wales, in Scotland gun crime has fallen significantly since it peaked in the mid-1990s. The total number of offences in 2002 (1014) was down by 2% from 2001 and by nearly 30% since 1996. The total number of homicides was three.

The number of incidents involving an unknown type of firearm has increased in recent years, owing to a change in the way in which the largest police forces such as Strathclyde and Lothian and Borders record gun crime. Until recently if the firearm involved had not been identified a guess was made about its type. In most cases this was an air gun. Now no guess is made and it is recorded as unknown.

The Scottish figures show that it is wrong to conclude that there is a gun crime wave sweeping the UK, and emphasise that gun crime tends to be concentrated in a relatively few specific locations, mostly inner city areas in England.

reeferchief

WindNoSail wrote:

You are obviously not even able to consider the fact that violence is not a gun thing, it is a people thing....it is so clear but to the stupid; gun laws don't make people safer, ever. Show me a stat that says I am wrong and show me one nation where the violence has decreased after gun laws were put in place that removed private ownership. You can't, I know you can't but you won't admit to it because you are more about propoganda than reality. I have no patience for idiots.

I own a gun, in fact I got two, but i have never used it in a crime.

So you have no patience for your self then.

dunkman

lucylespian wrote:

And you can't avoid the fact that 6000 Americans die a year from gun crime !!
And you still support guns, MADNESS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the figures are actually way higher than that... 31000 a year on average, 6000 are kids under the age of 14, which is awesome... i love kids but america feels it has way too many so they allow them to play with guns.

go guns... so cool!!! :cool:


got a gun, fact i got two... thats ok man cos i hate kids

catefrances

WindNoSail wrote:

You are obviously not even able to consider the fact that violence is not a gun thing, it is a people thing....it is so clear but to the stupid; gun laws don't make people safer, ever. Show me a stat that says I am wrong and show me one nation where the violence has decreased after gun laws were put in place that removed private ownership. You can't, I know you can't but you won't admit to it because you are more about propoganda than reality. I have no patience for idiots.

I own a gun, in fact I got two, but i have never used it in a crime.

i can name a country. australia.
after a massacre a few years back our government brought in gun laws restricting the ownership of rifles(we have never been allowed to have handguns). since then guess what? no more massacres. but then again we weren't a terribly violent country in the first place.

i too have no patience for idiots.

lucylespian

catefrances wrote:

i can name a country. australia.
after a massacre a few years back our government brought in gun laws restricting the ownership of rifles(we have never been allowed to have handguns). since then guess what? no more massacres. but then again we weren't a terribly violent country in the first place.

i too have no patience for idiots.

Hey cate, we agree on something, I posted a bunch of stuff on Oz gun laws a few pages back, but guess what, the Appalachian Americans just ignored it !!

Heineken Helen

reborncareerist wrote:

Um, care to explain the logic behind this comment?

Lol, I thought it was self explanatory! If ALL guns are illegal and I spot someone with a gun, then I KNOW it's illegal and can report that person :rolleyes:

Wow, I haven't posted here in months and I have to say it's refreshing to come back and find such an original thread - gun control hasn't been discussed before as far as I'm aware

lucylespian

Violence may be a people thing, but guns amplify the damage. Harsh language, fistcuffs or even knives cannot mow people down like chaff !!
BANG BANG !! You're dead !!
Sadly, all this discussion is pointless. There is no political will in the USA for gun control so .........."How much difference will it make ?"