Christmas Trees on government property are unconstitutional

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  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    RainDog wrote:
    Hey, if you're pushing to have Christmas removed from the Federal Holiday list, I'm all for it. Hell, the result would probably be a more religious observation of Christmas.

    I'm not pushing for anything. Just having a discussion. I would like it if Christmas became a more religious observation, though.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • RainDog
    RainDog Posts: 1,824
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Yes, you have. You've attached an obligation to my religious expression. If I am a government employee, I no longer have the right to freely express my religion.
    Same goes with just about any employee, anywhere. Here, I thought you always argued that employment was contingent on the rules of the employer.
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    know1 wrote:
    OK. If we accept the notion that it is neither pagan or Christian, then we still have the situation that we are endorsing a holiday that people from other religions may not choose to celebrate and displaying its symbol on our government buildings and in our schools.
    So what? Where in the constitution does it say that the government can't put up seasonal decorations?
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Yes, you have. You've attached an obligation to my religious expression. If I am a government employee, I no longer have the right to freely express my religion.
    Sure you do, you just can't do it while you're on the clock.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • WMA
    WMA Posts: 175
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Sorry, the previous poster used the word "purpose".

    Now, for you: in a courtroom in a town whose tax payers were 100% Christian -- are they allowed to put any religious symbol they'd like in there?

    The answer is always no if the building is paid for with tax dollars.

    I'm sure it wouldn't be so bad because there could be a manger on every single lawn except the public buildings in the whole town. Nobody driving through would miss that I'm sure.
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    RainDog wrote:
    Same goes with just about any employee, anywhere. Here, I thought you always argued that employment was contingent on the rules of the employer.

    It should be contingent on the rules of the employer. Correct me if I'm wrong if it is not the rule in this country that people should be free to express their religion.
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    WMA wrote:
    The answer is always no if the building is paid for with tax dollars.

    Why not?
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    hippiemom wrote:
    Sure you do, you just can't do it while you're on the clock.

    So if I show up after hours on my own time and put up a nativity scene, that's ok?
  • miller8966
    miller8966 Posts: 1,450
    I so a nativity scene at my local Dunkin doughnuts...god damn was i proud. Next to it was the star of david. I had no problem with that whatsoever.
    America...the greatest Country in the world.
  • RainDog
    RainDog Posts: 1,824
    farfromglorified wrote:
    It should be contingent on the rules of the employer. Correct me if I'm wrong if it is not the rule in this country that people should be free to express their religion.
    Yes, and employees of the government are just as free to express their religion as employees of any given private company. However, if any employee wants to erect sculptures of Jesus on company property, I'd imagine they'd need their employer's permission first. And, the government, as employer, doesn't allow that.
  • RainDog
    RainDog Posts: 1,824
    farfromglorified wrote:
    So if I show up after hours on my own time and put up a nativity scene, that's ok?
    Show up after hours and put up a nativity scene on your boss's property? I guess that depends on who your boss is.
  • RainDog
    RainDog Posts: 1,824
    miller8966 wrote:
    I so a nativity scene at my local Dunkin doughnuts...god damn was i proud. Next to it was the star of david. I had no problem with that whatsoever.
    That was also private property. No one's trying to ban displays on private property as far as I know (except in that one community where christians tried to ban the peace symbol during Christmas - but that's a different thread).
  • inmytree
    inmytree Posts: 4,741
    farfromglorified wrote:
    It should be contingent on the rules of the employer. Correct me if I'm wrong if it is not the rule in this country that people should be free to express their religion.

    again I ask, would you be ok with a monument devoted to the Koran paid for by taxpayer money...?

    I think it's pretty simple, all or none...if you want to display religous symbols in gov't buildings, the allow all religions to do the same, be it paganism, islam, christianity, or satanism....or none, which includes the dreaded xmas tree...cut 'em down...get rid of them, toss them in a dumpster....

    down with xmas trees, and lights, too....
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    farfromglorified wrote:
    So if I show up after hours on my own time and put up a nativity scene, that's ok?
    Actually, yes. A government that makes public property available to one group must make it equally available to all though, so you're not allowed to complain when I put a Festivus pole next to your manger scene.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    RainDog wrote:
    Yes, and employees of the government are just as free to express their religion as employees of any given private company.

    Really? If I fired someone for wearing a cross to work, I'd likely lose if I were sued. However, if a school fires someone for the same, they'd likely not lose.
    However, if any employee wants to erect sculptures of Jesus on company property, I'd imagine they'd need their employer's permission first.

    Certainly. I'm not advocating that government employees be able to eract a statue of Jesus on company property without the permission of their employer. I'm advocating the right of that employee to do so with their employer's permission without a third party invalidating the will of both. In the vast majority of these cases, the employer is the people of a given town, not the federal or even a state government.
    And, the government, as employer, doesn't allow that.

    "The government" you're talking about is the federal government. The federal government is not the employer of most judges, teachers, etc - the people of the town, county, or state are typically their employers.

    Which is it, Raindog? If my local courthouse erects the Ten Commandments in its lobby, and that courthouse is paid for and operated by the Orthodox Catholic people that comprise my town, on what logic should they be unable to do so?
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    hippiemom wrote:
    Actually, yes. A government that makes public property available to one group must make it equally available to all though, so you're not allowed to complain when I put a Festivus pole next to your manger scene.

    Cool. Then you and I agree.
  • RainDog
    RainDog Posts: 1,824
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Really? If I fired someone for wearing a cross to work, I'd likely lose if I were sued. However, if a school fires someone for the same, they'd likely not lose.
    A "what-if" scenerio - and one that likely will never come true. I imagine the school would lose.


    farfromglorified wrote:
    Certainly. I'm not advocating that government employees be able to eract a statue of Jesus on company property without the permission of their employer. I'm advocating the right of that employee to do so with their employer's permission without a third party invalidating the will of both. In the vast majority of these cases, the employer is the people of a given town, not the federal or even a state government.
    Expected to follow the rules and regulations of their parent company - the Federal Government. Think of them as "independently owned" franchises that must keep to company policy.
    farfromglorified wrote:
    "The government" you're talking about is the federal government. The federal government is not the employer of most judges, teachers, etc - the people of the town, county, or state are typically their employers.
    They own a franchise, yes.
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Which is it, Raindog? If my local courthouse erects the Ten Commandments in its lobby, and that courthouse is paid for and operated by the Orthodox Catholic people that comprise my town, on what logic should they be unable to do so?
    The logic that they violate the rules set forth by the government of which they represent.
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    inmytree wrote:
    again I ask, would you be ok with a monument devoted to the Koran paid for by taxpayer money...?

    No. I'd be equally upset as a I would be with a monument devoted to the Bible paid for by taxpayer money.

    But I wouldn't be upset with the person who built it, be it the Koran or the Bible. I think any Muslim or Christian should be free to eract any monument to their faith that they choose.
    I think it's pretty simple, all or none...if you want to display religous symbols in gov't buildings, the allow all religions to do the same, be it paganism, islam, christianity, or satanism....or none, which includes the dreaded xmas tree...cut 'em down...get rid of them, toss them in a dumpster....

    All is fine with me. What do I care what monuments people build or statements people make so long as I'm not forced to build them or say them?
    down with xmas trees, and lights, too....

    It's a very bleak world you're aiming for.
  • inmytree
    inmytree Posts: 4,741
    farfromglorified wrote:


    It's a very bleak world you're aiming for.

    I'm not aiming for anything...:)

    talk to knowxmastree, that's the person who is scrooging up me xmas spirts...
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    know1 wrote:
    You're way off there. I think it means something religious to a much higher percentage than that.

    If we take the population of the world as a whole, I'd say that 1% Christian is a fair estimate. Not many people pretend to be Christians at Christmas time, and those that do are irrelevant in their phoniness.

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