Exactly. So why do you legislate not having symbols and use reasoning about not wanting laws that establish Christianity? We already have the constitution which bans those laws - but not the symbols. In my opinion, the fact that we disallow the Christian symbols is MORE unconstitutional than the fact that they are there.
No one's disallowing Christian symbols. They simply do not want government endorsement of one religion over all others.
And this isn't an even comparison. I do hear those pushing for more religious symbols in public places espouse the idea that we are a Christian nation.
Pretty bad, considering it wouldn't be "your" courtroom.
But is it not the consensus here that those courtrooms belong to us all? Is that not what I'm hearing? Or do they only belong to those strong enough to enforce their will upon them?
Are you sure? Because when you tell me I have no right to do it in a courtroom, on what grounds do I have a right to do it in my home?
um....
a....
oookk...
perhaps I missed something...anyhoo...if you want to display a sign in your home saying "I love jesus, he's my buddy"...I think that would be ok...heck, you could wallpaper your walls with pages from the bible for all I care...
But is it not the consensus here that those courtrooms belong to us all? Is that not what I'm hearing? Or do they only belong to those strong enough to enforce their will upon them?
The purpose of a court room isn't to express your personal, religious beliefs.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
The purpose of a court room isn't to express your personal, religious beliefs.
I'm curious, if religious freedom is dependent on the purpose of a building, shouldn't we ban all religious expression outside churches, mosques, and synagogues?
Or why do the Pagans need to have their tree displayed on public property?
I think I agree with I think Colin the non-american. It's not any religion it's a symbol of the season. Your opinion is the tree represents paganism and that opinion is fueled by the fact that specific christian symbols have been required to be removed. I feel that more often then most christians are just getting pissed because their beliefs are being cut from the society more and more and they are just trying to "pick fights" along the way. This is not directed to anyone personally but just my opinion on this thread.
Going back to the cross on the necklace comments, I would think that most people who wear a cross have some sort of belief. Just because they don;t go to church every sunday doesn't make them less of a believer.
I guess my questions to know1 are...do you have a tree? Do you like the tree concept? Or because you think it is strictly pagan you have banned it from your own home?
If it is someone who works in the building, guess who is paying his salary?
We are.
He is a government worker!
Yes, he is. More importantly, he is also an American and, even more importantly, a person. That means his fundamental rights to express his religion should certainly remain intact.
I'm curious, if religious freedom is dependent on the purpose of a building, shouldn't we ban all religious expression outside churches, mosques, and synagogues?
No, because that would be a violation of a person's individual rights.
Hahahaha!!!! I can't believe this has gone on for seven pages!
Hey folks ... it's a freakin' TREE! It's not a religious symbol, it's a TREE. With pretty lights and decorations, and just about everyone finds it festive. When the pagans start asking to have pentagrams (their closest equivalent to the cross) or copies of the witches creed hung up in city hall, then we can talk.
It's a piece of shrubbery, for crying out loud. Jesus is laughing at you now.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
I'm curious, if religious freedom is dependent on the purpose of a building, shouldn't we ban all religious expression outside churches, mosques, and synagogues?
It isn't the purpose of a building, it is who pays for it. Taxdollars = government.
perhaps I missed something...anyhoo...if you want to display a sign in your home saying "I love jesus, he's my buddy"...I think that would be ok...heck, you could wallpaper your walls with pages from the bible for all I care...
key phrase: your home....
Here's the thing: it no longer matters what you care about. The instant you make the freedoms of religious expression dependent on an interpretation of venue is the instant you gave up control.
Look at the logic being espoused here:
- Freedom of expression includes what you see others do, not just what you say and do.
- Freedom of expression is dependent on venues judged as those that should be "religion free"
Now, how long can I expect to have the right to put up such a sign? Certainly others might see that sign. Certainly the "purpose" of my home is to live in first, not to espouse religion in.
- Freedom of expression includes what you see others do, not just what you say and do.
- Freedom of expression is dependent on venues judged as those that should be "religion free"
That's the logic as you see it. I've yet to see anyone actually say it, though.
Hahahaha!!!! I can't believe this has gone on for seven pages!
Hey folks ... it's a freakin' TREE! It's not a religious symbol, it's a TREE. With pretty lights and decorations, and just about everyone finds it festive. When the pagans start asking to have pentagrams (their closest equivalent to the cross) or copies of the witches creed hung up in city hall, then we can talk.
It's a piece of shrubbery, for crying out loud. Jesus is laughing at you now.
OK. If we accept the notion that it is neither pagan or Christian, then we still have the situation that we are endorsing a holiday that people from other religions may not choose to celebrate and displaying its symbol on our government buildings and in our schools.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Here's the thing: it no longer matters what you care about. The instant you make the freedoms of religious expression dependent on an interpretation of venue is the instant you gave up control.
Look at the logic being espoused here:
- Freedom of expression includes what you see others do, not just what you say and do.
- Freedom of expression is dependent on venues judged as those that should be "religion free"
Now, how long can I expect to have the right to put up such a sign? Certainly others might see that sign. Certainly the "purpose" of my home is to live in first, not to espouse religion in.
Well, you've had it for about 230 years now and no one is trying to take it away, so I think you're probably safe for a little while longer.
Damn, the board is funny today!
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
OK. If we accept the notion that it is neither pagan or Christian, then we still have the situation that we are endorsing a holiday that people from other religions may not choose to celebrate and displaying its symbol on our government buildings and in our schools.
Hey, if you're pushing to have Christmas removed from the Federal Holiday list, I'm all for it. Hell, the result would probably be a more religious observation of Christmas.
Well, you've had it for about 230 years now and no one is trying to take it away, so I think you're probably safe for a little while longer.
So the only protection I have left is history? That doesn't bode very well, particularly considering that I also didn't have people freaking out about religious symbols in government institutions 230 years ago.
Yes, you have. You've attached an obligation to my religious expression. If I am a government employee, I no longer have the right to freely express my religion.
I think I agree with I think Colin the non-american. It's not any religion it's a symbol of the season. Your opinion is the tree represents paganism and that opinion is fueled by the fact that specific christian symbols have been required to be removed. I feel that more often then most christians are just getting pissed because their beliefs are being cut from the society more and more and they are just trying to "pick fights" along the way. This is not directed to anyone personally but just my opinion on this thread.
Going back to the cross on the necklace comments, I would think that most people who wear a cross have some sort of belief. Just because they don;t go to church every sunday doesn't make them less of a believer.
I guess my questions to know1 are...do you have a tree? Do you like the tree concept? Or because you think it is strictly pagan you have banned it from your own home?
Ask a Jewish person if they think it is a symbol of the season.
(and I have nothing whatsoever against Christmas trees. I do think they are a symbol of the Christian religion just like I think this holiday is a religious holiday. I do not have a tree in my house, but that's due to laziness!)
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Comments
And this isn't an even comparison. I do hear those pushing for more religious symbols in public places espouse the idea that we are a Christian nation.
if you have a courtroom in your home, I would fully support it...!!!
Judges often make the same mistake, though.
Umm...if were weren't talking about people there'd be no issue. "Government" can't build a nativity scene or a red crescent. People do those things.
It isn't promoting anything. Something, by its mere existence, is not a "promotion".
But is it not the consensus here that those courtrooms belong to us all? Is that not what I'm hearing? Or do they only belong to those strong enough to enforce their will upon them?
Again, how is a symbol a law?
I have no problem with any symbols being displayed at government buildings, but you have a problem with Christian ones.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Are you sure? Because when you tell me I have no right to do it in a courtroom, on what grounds do I have a right to do it in my home?
Because one symbol shouldn't be represented by the govt that represents us all.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
um....
a....
oookk...
perhaps I missed something...anyhoo...if you want to display a sign in your home saying "I love jesus, he's my buddy"...I think that would be ok...heck, you could wallpaper your walls with pages from the bible for all I care...
key phrase: your home....
The purpose of a court room isn't to express your personal, religious beliefs.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
If it is someone who works in the building, guess who is paying his salary?
He is a government worker!
If it is someone who goes into the building and asks that whatever it is gets displayed who does he ask?
A government worker!
Which makes either one a part of the government. Simple stuff really ...
I'm curious, if religious freedom is dependent on the purpose of a building, shouldn't we ban all religious expression outside churches, mosques, and synagogues?
I think I agree with I think Colin the non-american. It's not any religion it's a symbol of the season. Your opinion is the tree represents paganism and that opinion is fueled by the fact that specific christian symbols have been required to be removed. I feel that more often then most christians are just getting pissed because their beliefs are being cut from the society more and more and they are just trying to "pick fights" along the way. This is not directed to anyone personally but just my opinion on this thread.
Going back to the cross on the necklace comments, I would think that most people who wear a cross have some sort of belief. Just because they don;t go to church every sunday doesn't make them less of a believer.
I guess my questions to know1 are...do you have a tree? Do you like the tree concept? Or because you think it is strictly pagan you have banned it from your own home?
We are.
Yes, he is. More importantly, he is also an American and, even more importantly, a person. That means his fundamental rights to express his religion should certainly remain intact.
Hey folks ... it's a freakin' TREE! It's not a religious symbol, it's a TREE. With pretty lights and decorations, and just about everyone finds it festive. When the pagans start asking to have pentagrams (their closest equivalent to the cross) or copies of the witches creed hung up in city hall, then we can talk.
It's a piece of shrubbery, for crying out loud. Jesus is laughing at you now.
It isn't the purpose of a building, it is who pays for it. Taxdollars = government.
Ooh, that was a tough one!
Here's the thing: it no longer matters what you care about. The instant you make the freedoms of religious expression dependent on an interpretation of venue is the instant you gave up control.
Look at the logic being espoused here:
- Freedom of expression includes what you see others do, not just what you say and do.
- Freedom of expression is dependent on venues judged as those that should be "religion free"
Now, how long can I expect to have the right to put up such a sign? Certainly others might see that sign. Certainly the "purpose" of my home is to live in first, not to espouse religion in.
So why is it OK to have a Christmas tree?
Even if you think it is totally secular, there are people who do not celebrate Christmas.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
You have funny logic.
What rights? You've already said that the individuals rights of religious expression are dependent on others interpretations.
OK. If we accept the notion that it is neither pagan or Christian, then we still have the situation that we are endorsing a holiday that people from other religions may not choose to celebrate and displaying its symbol on our government buildings and in our schools.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Damn, the board is funny today!
Sorry, the previous poster used the word "purpose".
Now, for you: in a courtroom in a town whose tax payers were 100% Christian -- are they allowed to put any religious symbol they'd like in there?
So the only protection I have left is history? That doesn't bode very well, particularly considering that I also didn't have people freaking out about religious symbols in government institutions 230 years ago.
Yes, you have. You've attached an obligation to my religious expression. If I am a government employee, I no longer have the right to freely express my religion.
Ask a Jewish person if they think it is a symbol of the season.
(and I have nothing whatsoever against Christmas trees. I do think they are a symbol of the Christian religion just like I think this holiday is a religious holiday. I do not have a tree in my house, but that's due to laziness!)
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.