Christmas Trees on government property are unconstitutional

know1

Whenever we have the discussion about whether Christmas is a religious (Christian) holiday, people always say that the traditions such as the tree are heavily influenced by Pagan rituals.

In addition, people also claim that the so-called separation of church and state (which I do not believe in) denotes that there can't be religious symbols in government buildings.

Therefore, since Paganism is a religion and a tree is its symbol, then those same people should call for the banning of Christmas trees from government buildings, schools, etc.

And even if you do not think that they are pagan symbols, then they must be Christian symbols so should still be banned.

momofglynn

if you don't like it, don't look??!! I don't know what to say...I do not get bothered by a tree with lights. I do however get bothered by a nativity scene so I guess I am the same group that you are mentioning. I like lights, especially the LCD ones, very pretty. I do see your point to a degree but I feel there is a big difference between the 2 groups that you are referencing. Mostly that a lot of religions adopted the tree/lights on the other side not all have adopted Christian symbols.

You have a good debate/discussion over several bottles of wine however.....

Collin

I'm going to give my opinion as a non-American on this.

I believe in separation of state and church, I hope this can become reality. I also think that the Christmas tree was indeed influenced by pagan rituals but over the years Christmas tree have become a Christian tradition as well.

And though I believe in seperation of state and church, I think they should put Christmas tree's whereever they want. Because they are nice, they give a certain warmth, it's part of the whole holiday atmosphere. I don't really think a Christmas tree is a statement like "Convert to Christianity or you shall burn in hell!" or "Come celebrate the feast of winter" or whatever it's just a "Merry Christmas" or "Season's Greetings."

WMA

know1 wrote:

Whenever we have the discussion about whether Christmas is a religious (Christian) holiday, people always say that the traditions such as the tree are heavily influenced by Pagan rituals.

In addition, people also claim that the so-called separation of church and state (which I do not believe in) denotes that there can't be religious symbols in government buildings.

Therefore, since Paganism is a religion and a tree is its symbol, then those same people should call for the banning of Christmas trees from government buildings, schools, etc.

And even if you do not think that they are pagan symbols, then they must be Christian symbols so should still be banned.

How about I just start calling it a Holiday Tree? Would that make you angry enough?

Or do you really need the full blown outrage that you can hang onto through the whole season that only comes with me asking for a ban?

Abookamongstthemany

A Christmas tree isn't a big enough issue for me to worry about. It's not forcing a certain idealogy on the public really. It's just a decoration that may or may or may not have religious implications. It can just be a seasonal, decorated tree with lights and shiny objects to look.

In order for there to be freedom of religion, they have to keep religion serperate from government. If the government effects the lives of it's citizens, who are supposed to have religious freedom, they they can't pick just one religion to represent in the classroom, in laws, court rooms, govt offices, etc. It wouldn't seem to much like freedom if only one was being represented throughout the country. They obviously can't really represent them all and please everyone so it's best just to leave it alone.

jlew24asu

Merry Christmas

know1

My point is, it's definitely a religious symbol - whether pagan or Christian, so why do we turn a blind eye to it when we raise such a stink about other symbols?

Collin

know1 wrote:

My point is, it's definitely a religious symbol - whether pagan or Christian, so why do we turn a blind eye to it when we raise such a stink about other symbols?

I disagree, I don't see it as a religious symbol, it can be, but to me and a lot of other people it's not.

meme

know1 wrote:

My point is, it's definitely a religious symbol - whether pagan or Christian, so why do we turn a blind eye to it when we raise such a stink about other symbols?

I see your point, but as Abook said there are more urgent things for me to worry about. Everyone chooses the causes that are closer to their sensibility, and I just don't think getting rid of Christmas tree is of importance to many.

WMA

know1 wrote:

My point is, it's definitely a religious symbol - whether pagan or Christian, so why do we turn a blind eye to it when we raise such a stink about other symbols?

I think it has just been so ingrained into our culture that people don't even really think twice about it. It more or less symbolizes the giving season in my opinion.

I don't think Pagan or Christian when I decorate one, or see one, I think of family.

Collin

WMA wrote:

I think it has just been so ingrained into our culture that people don't even really think twice about it. It more or less symbolizes the giving season in my opinion.

I don't think Pagan or Christian when I decorate one, or see one, I think of family.

Exactly.

inmytree

know1 wrote:

Whenever we have the discussion about whether Christmas is a religious (Christian) holiday, people always say that the traditions such as the tree are heavily influenced by Pagan rituals.

In addition, people also claim that the so-called separation of church and state (which I do not believe in) denotes that there can't be religious symbols in government buildings.

Therefore, since Paganism is a religion and a tree is its symbol, then those same people should call for the banning of Christmas trees from government buildings, schools, etc.

And even if you do not think that they are pagan symbols, then they must be Christian symbols so should still be banned.

Great points, let's ban all Christmas Trees...it should be pretty easy...

down with the TREE!!

RainDog

know1 wrote:

My point is, it's definitely a religious symbol - whether pagan or Christian, so why do we turn a blind eye to it when we raise such a stink about other symbols?

It's a Christian symbol, AND a pagan symbol, AND a secular seasonal symbol all wrapped up into one - and therefor it does not endorse any one specific religion. Things (sometimes permanent things) like the Ten Commandments or a Crucifix or even cross aren't the same thing.

You need to drop the either/or type rhetoric. It can be quite divisive.

Abookamongstthemany

know1 wrote:

My point is, it's definitely a religious symbol - whether pagan or Christian, so why do we turn a blind eye to it when we raise such a stink about other symbols?

I'm not religious and I have one up in my living room as we speak. So no, it doesn't have to be religious. We stole that shit! Having a tree in your house covered in colored lights and shiny decorations is just too good of an idea to not go for!! Sorry.

know1

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

I'm not religious and I have one up in my living room as we speak. So no, it doesn't have to be religious. We stole that shit! Having a tree in your house covered in colored lights and shiny decorations is just too good of an idea to not go for!! Sorry.

I see plenty of non-religious people wearing crosses as jewelry as well, so by your logic since it's not a big deal we should be able to put crosses in government buildings, right?

know1

meme wrote:

I see your point, but as Abook said there are more urgent things for me to worry about. Everyone chooses the causes that are closer to their sensibility, and I just don't think getting rid of Christmas tree is of importance to many.

Ahh, but one might argue that there are more urgent things to worry about than banning the 10 Commandments, as well.

Abookamongstthemany

know1 wrote:

Ahh, but one might argue that there are more urgent things to worry about than banning the 10 Commandments, as well.

Obviously more people thought the ten commandments was a bigger issue since I haven't heard too much about this Christmas tree ban. The ten commandments effect decision making. What decisions do you make based on the Christmas tree?

Collin

know1 wrote:

I see plenty of non-religious people wearing crosses as jewelry as well, so by your logic since it's not a big deal we should be able to put crosses in government buildings, right?

How do you know they are not religious?

Anyway, the cross is the symbol of Christianity, a tree is not.

know1

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Obviously more people thought the ten commandments was a bigger issue since I haven't heard too much about this Chritmas tree ban. The ten commandments effect decision making. What decisions do you make based on the Christmas tree?

What about a cross, then? That doesn't affect decision making...

know1

Collin wrote:

How do you know they are not religious?

Anyway, the cross is the symbol of Christianity, a tree is not.

Right - it's a symbol of paganism if you believe many people on this board.

So I guess the only symbols that should be banned from government buildings are the Christian ones, right? I mean, if it's a pagan religious symbol, then it's fine.

inmytree

know1 wrote:

What about a cross, then? That doesn't affect decision making...

perhaps we should ban the wearing of crosses by non-chirstians...that would solve the problem...