Christmas Trees on government property are unconstitutional
know1
Posts: 6,794
Whenever we have the discussion about whether Christmas is a religious (Christian) holiday, people always say that the traditions such as the tree are heavily influenced by Pagan rituals.
In addition, people also claim that the so-called separation of church and state (which I do not believe in) denotes that there can't be religious symbols in government buildings.
Therefore, since Paganism is a religion and a tree is its symbol, then those same people should call for the banning of Christmas trees from government buildings, schools, etc.
And even if you do not think that they are pagan symbols, then they must be Christian symbols so should still be banned.
In addition, people also claim that the so-called separation of church and state (which I do not believe in) denotes that there can't be religious symbols in government buildings.
Therefore, since Paganism is a religion and a tree is its symbol, then those same people should call for the banning of Christmas trees from government buildings, schools, etc.
And even if you do not think that they are pagan symbols, then they must be Christian symbols so should still be banned.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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You have a good debate/discussion over several bottles of wine however.....
I believe in separation of state and church, I hope this can become reality. I also think that the Christmas tree was indeed influenced by pagan rituals but over the years Christmas tree have become a Christian tradition as well.
And though I believe in seperation of state and church, I think they should put Christmas tree's whereever they want. Because they are nice, they give a certain warmth, it's part of the whole holiday atmosphere. I don't really think a Christmas tree is a statement like "Convert to Christianity or you shall burn in hell!" or "Come celebrate the feast of winter" or whatever it's just a "Merry Christmas" or "Season's Greetings."
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How about I just start calling it a Holiday Tree? Would that make you angry enough?
Or do you really need the full blown outrage that you can hang onto through the whole season that only comes with me asking for a ban?
In order for there to be freedom of religion, they have to keep religion serperate from government. If the government effects the lives of it's citizens, who are supposed to have religious freedom, they they can't pick just one religion to represent in the classroom, in laws, court rooms, govt offices, etc. It wouldn't seem to much like freedom if only one was being represented throughout the country. They obviously can't really represent them all and please everyone so it's best just to leave it alone.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I disagree, I don't see it as a religious symbol, it can be, but to me and a lot of other people it's not.
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I see your point, but as Abook said there are more urgent things for me to worry about. Everyone chooses the causes that are closer to their sensibility, and I just don't think getting rid of Christmas tree is of importance to many.
I think it has just been so ingrained into our culture that people don't even really think twice about it. It more or less symbolizes the giving season in my opinion.
I don't think Pagan or Christian when I decorate one, or see one, I think of family.
Exactly.
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Great points, let's ban all Christmas Trees...it should be pretty easy...
down with the TREE!!
You need to drop the either/or type rhetoric. It can be quite divisive.
I'm not religious and I have one up in my living room as we speak. So no, it doesn't have to be religious. We stole that shit!
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I see plenty of non-religious people wearing crosses as jewelry as well, so by your logic since it's not a big deal we should be able to put crosses in government buildings, right?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Ahh, but one might argue that there are more urgent things to worry about than banning the 10 Commandments, as well.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Obviously more people thought the ten commandments was a bigger issue since I haven't heard too much about this Christmas tree ban. The ten commandments effect decision making. What decisions do you make based on the Christmas tree?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
How do you know they are not religious?
Anyway, the cross is the symbol of Christianity, a tree is not.
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What about a cross, then? That doesn't affect decision making...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Right - it's a symbol of paganism if you believe many people on this board.
So I guess the only symbols that should be banned from government buildings are the Christian ones, right? I mean, if it's a pagan religious symbol, then it's fine.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
perhaps we should ban the wearing of crosses by non-chirstians...that would solve the problem...
I haven't seen this happening. Maybe they aren't devout followers but they obviously must believe. It's a Christian symbol. What else is it for? If it is being used to represent a religion in school then it shouldn't be used.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
The cross only represents Christian faith and with that comes a certain idealogy.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Christians on the right worried about the Iraq conflict and its reprecussions? Put up the Ten Commandments in front of a courthouse and rally the troops when the expected outcry occurs. Can translate into some sweet election results as Christians drop the more complex and morally ambigious ideas behind war and get behind something solid like a big stone tablet.
Republicans reelling from the last election? Hey, nothing gets people worked up like a perceived assault on their religion (just look at the war on terror). Shore up the base by inventing something. Hey, how about a ban on Christmas trees - though it doesn't look like anyone on the left's trying that right now. Maybe we can coax them into it!?
A Christmas tree is a symbol of Christianity if you're a Christian, it's a symbol of paganism if you're a pagan and it's a symbol of family warmth if you're non-religious (and probably if you are religious as well, I sure hope so).
And I think all religious symbols should be banned from gov't buildings or, which I am less in favour of, all symbols should be in gov't buildings not just Christian ones.
Do you wear a small silver tree around your neck? Are there a lot of trees in your Church or any church?
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Nice.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Somehow, we've decided that having religious aspects in government somehow equates to a violation of this, which is a logic that makes no sense to me. That logic states that we can't have the Ten Comandments in a town hall or a Quran in the Supreme Court or a Christmas Tree/nativity scene on government property. Based on that kind of logic, why do we allow politicians with any faith whatsoever to hold office?
All of this actually undermines religious freedoms in this country -- you're banning people from expressing their religions, and you're doing so in a very aggressive manner.
If all religions are given an equal opportunity to be represented and we don't have laws and curriculum based on religious beliefs, the I wouldn't have a problem with it. But I have a hard time believing that the Quran would be allowed on display in our court rooms or any other Islamic symbols for that matter. What about Peagan symbols, Satanic symbols? If you're going to allow one, you have to allow them all. It seems like a lot to take on to allow them all.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Happy Holidays
I'm not sure what you mean here. By "equal opportunity" to be represented, do you mean equal freedoms to be represented, or do you mean an unequal representation wherein less popular religions have the right to enforce an equal representation???
Really? You should visit the Supreme Court then where a frieze shows Muhammed along with Moses, John Marshal, Charlemagne, Hammurabi and others.
What about them???
See, I think you're using the word "allow" when you want it to mean something else. It takes nothing to "allow them all" other than a respect for people's choices. However, it takes much for force people to represent things that they have no wishes to represent.