why do some of you think pulling out troops is a good thing?

Heineken Helen

Hollyweird wrote:

What the hell do you think they are doing over there? The "war" has been over for some time. The occupation is what continues and American lives are being taken every day while we try to stabilize the country so it does not descend into anarchy. We need to stay. And despite the BS the Democrats say, we have no choice but to stay,

so you're agreeing with me then?

Heineken Helen

Hollyweird wrote:

Seriously. The UN? Give me a fucking break. They did such a wonderful job in Srebernica why not send them back to sit on their weapons and watch another massacre. Thats what they do best.

what is it with you americans? Instead of trying to make the UN work... a body which, if controlled PROPERLY (i.e. if the US wouldn't just use it for their own benefits) would have stopped this war in the first place. Why so quick to want to get rid of it rather than help it become what it's supposed to be?

catefrances

Hollyweird wrote:

Sadaam or not were stayin. I dont care what anyone says. Any draw down would be symbolic. Once Barak wins and he gets educated about whats at stake for the world economy no one will be going anywhere.

well of course you are. that's what the US does. goes where theyre not welcome for no reason whatsoever(or a bullshit one, take your pick), stays until the situation is so lost they hightail it out of there in disgrace, and tis deemed necessary by hollywood to spend the next 30 years trying to justify that presence.

NCfan

catefrances wrote:

oh i believe the troops should be pulled out of iraq. do you think they should stay indefinitely and allow the country to continue to spiral hellward cause of some 'pottery barn' motto. you break it, you fix it is bullshit. it doesnt matter when the troops leave, iraq will collapse in on itself. so why not get the fuck out and let them have at at?

LOL, what kind of a person are you? You want our troops out so people can kill each other? Please explain.

NCfan

Does anybody here understand the progress that is being made in Iraq? They have a democratically elected parliament and president. They are holding elections. The economy is growing. They are signing trade agreements with their neighbors - even IRAN!!! And honestly I don't care if they have close ties with Iran or not.

The point is that a fucking country is emerging over there. A free press! Elections! Sunni and Shite reconciliation is not going to come overnight or over a decade people. It is going to take GENERATIONAL TURNOVER for that to fully take place.

40 to 50 years ago Barak Obama could be lynched in the American South just for being black exactly like a Sunni could get lynched in Baghdad for not being a Shite. He couldn't eat with whites or even go to school with whites. Now he stands a great chance to be the next president of the United States. So don't tell me that people can't change. That societies don't change. They do... but they need people to help. They need people to lead and show the way.

I don't understand why people would want the U.S. to leave and let Iraq decend into an all out civil war. And I'm talking a hell of a civil war with two factiosn armed to the teeth. The outcome would be a Shite strongman would emerge and rule with an iron fist. A Sunni genocide would take place, with Kurdistan being next on the list. The entire region would digress 50 years. Another two maybe three generations would be lost to a life of war. They would just perpetuate the tensions of their ancestors. Jesus, isn't this a simple equation?

Who wants that? We are spending a lot of money, but we stand to profit in the long run. We are not losing an unsustainable number of troops.

War sucks, but right now a incurection is better than an all out genocide.

Commy

Your forgetting the reality of the situation I think. The United States invaded Iraq, twice, put them under sanctions for 12 years or so, and killed literally hundreds of thousands of them. But we let them vote (on candidates hand picked by the US) so its all ok now? I don't think so.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

We take the right...do what we say...we know better even if we have to invade your land and kill you (and your children) for it. Obey us or die.

people somehow try to justify that shit?

nice...

Cosmo

NCfan wrote:

Does anybody here understand the progress that is being made in Iraq? They have a democratically elected parliament and president. They are holding elections. The economy is growing. They are signing trade agreements with their neighbors - even IRAN!!! And honestly I don't care if they have close ties with Iran or not.

The point is that a fucking country is emerging over there. A free press! Elections! Sunni and Shite reconciliation is not going to come overnight or over a decade people. It is going to take GENERATIONAL TURNOVER for that to fully take place.

40 to 50 years ago Barak Obama could be lynched in the American South just for being black exactly like a Sunni could get lynched in Baghdad for not being a Shite. He couldn't eat with whites or even go to school with whites. Now he stands a great chance to be the next president of the United States. So don't tell me that people can't change. That societies don't change. They do... but they need people to help. They need people to lead and show the way.

I don't understand why people would want the U.S. to leave and let Iraq decend into an all out civil war. And I'm talking a hell of a civil war with two factiosn armed to the teeth. The outcome would be a Shite strongman would emerge and rule with an iron fist. A Sunni genocide would take place, with Kurdistan being next on the list. The entire region would digress 50 years. Another two maybe three generations would be lost to a life of war. They would just perpetuate the tensions of their ancestors. Jesus, isn't this a simple equation?

Who wants that? We are spending a lot of money, but we stand to profit in the long run. We are not losing an unsustainable number of troops.

War sucks, but right now a incurection is better than an all out genocide.

...
If things are as rosey as you say they are... why aren't we at least, drawing down the number of U.S. troops over there.
...
And personally, I take offense to this statement (and nothing offends me):
"We are not losing an unsustainable number of troops."
You are willing to sacrifice these people for your comfort? at what number does your 'acceptable' losses in our troops, become unacceptable to you?

Hollyweird

Heineken Helen wrote:

so you're agreeing with me then?

Agreed yes but for different reasons. Not coming at this from the perspective of an angry European but agreed there is a responsibility to stay and make it right. I think you would find that alot of U.S soldiers feel the same way. The problem is that staying means, necessarily, a vote for the Republicans. Is that what you want? Because if you listen to the Democrats they will turn tail and run within 60 days.

That being said, this is what I find so totally disingenuous about Barak Obama in particular. Regardless of what you say you would have done if in office the reality is alot of us bought into George W's bullshit. For christ sake, Collin Powell went to the U.N. with this rubbish. Seen him lately? The majority of "us" on this board probably never voted for George W in either 2000 or 2004 so you need to be careful about labelling this whole thing about "us".

The issue is WTF do we do now?? Plain and simple. Leaving will not happen and personally I am just as offended being lied to by Democrats as I am Republicans.

As previously pointed out if all US troops left tomorrow you would have at least three new wars break out instantly. The Turks and the Kurds in the North, a Sunni and Shiite Civil War, and a possible West - Iran showdown in the Gulf, all of which may happen anyways .

So there it is, as I said before it's a big shit sandwich and were all gonna have to take a bite.....

Hollyweird

Heineken Helen wrote:

what is it with you americans? Instead of trying to make the UN work... a body which, if controlled PROPERLY (i.e. if the US wouldn't just use it for their own benefits) would have stopped this war in the first place. Why so quick to want to get rid of it rather than help it become what it's supposed to be?

This is worse than Bollocks. It's a dog's Bollock's! First what's with all this "you americans" crap anyways. Last time I checked there were like 270 million of us and we all have opinions that we are entitled to express. We are not one large mindless space alien intent on world domination. Ok sometimes we are. And were really sorry about that. Many of us are just transplanted Europeans so were genetically pre-disposed towards oppressing people. Cmon now. Ireland is such a pretty happy place with the best beer in the world. What did we ever do to you other than take in all your fucking starving potato famine refugees?

That said I do have issue with your view of the UN. The UN is used and abused by everyone and it is nothing more than a US funded debating society with no real power. If you can cite one instance in which the UN actually kept the peace, it's original fucking purpose, let me know. Last time I checked it was in Korea and that still cost 30,000 US lives. Other than that it's a waste of perfectly good Manhattan real estate.

Hollyweird

Heineken Helen wrote:

what is it with you americans? Instead of trying to make the UN work... a body which, if controlled PROPERLY (i.e. if the US wouldn't just use it for their own benefits) would have stopped this war in the first place. Why so quick to want to get rid of it rather than help it become what it's supposed to be?

This is worse than Bollocks. It's a dog's Bollock's! First what's with all this "you americans" crap anyways. Last time I checked there were like 270 million of us and we all have opinions that we are entitled to express. We are not one large mindless space alien intent on world domination. Ok sometimes we are. And were really sorry about that. Many of us are just transplanted Europeans so were genetically pre-disposed towards oppressing people. Cmon now. Ireland is such a pretty happy place with the best beer in the world. What did we ever do to you other than take in all your fucking starving potato famine refugees?

That said I do have issue with your view of the UN. The UN is used and abused by everyone and it is nothing more than a US funded debating society with no real power. If you can cite one instance in which the UN actually kept the peace, it's original fucking purpose, let me know. Last time I checked it was in Korea and that still cost 30,000 US lives. Other than that it's a waste of perfectly good Manhattan real estate.

Pegasus

Hollyweird wrote:

This is worse than Bollocks. It's a dog's Bollock's! First what's with all this "you americans" crap anyways. Last time I checked there were like 270 million of us and we all have opinions that we are entitled to express. We are not one large mindless space alien intent on world domination. Ok sometimes we are. And were really sorry about that. Many of us are just transplanted Europeans so were genetically pre-disposed towards oppressing people. Cmon now. Ireland is such a pretty happy place with the best beer in the world. What did we ever do to you other than take in all your fucking starving potato famine refugees?

That said I do have issue with your view of the UN. The UN is used and abused by everyone and it is nothing more than a US funded debating society with no real power. If you can cite one instance in which the UN actually kept the peace, it's original fucking purpose, let me know. Last time I checked it was in Korea and that still cost 30,000 US lives. Other than that it's a waste of perfectly good Manhattan real estate.

funded the IRA for decades? yeah, terrorists are only bad if they kill Americans :rolleyes:

the UN has lots of problems, but it's still a better solution that unilateral action because that suits you.
Should work at strengthening it rather than undermining it.

Cosmo

Hollyweird wrote:

... So there it is, as I said before it's a big shit sandwich and were all gonna have to take a bite.....

...
That's okay... you can have my share. I didn't order it.

Hollyweird

Pegasus wrote:

funded the IRA for decades? yeah, terrorists are only bad if they kill Americans :rolleyes:

the UN has lots of problems, but it's still a better solution that unilateral action because that suits you.
Should work at strengthening it rather than undermining it.

Really? Unilateral was it London? Weren't you the guys that served up the Yellow Cake intelligence?

Hollyweird

Cosmo wrote:

...
That's okay... you can have my share. I didn't order it.

Cmon. No one saw Full Metal Jacket? It's a joke son...laugh

Cosmo

Hollyweird wrote:

Cmon. No one saw Full Metal Jacket? It's a joke son...laugh

...
It's funny to us. We as comfortable on our homes, a half a world away from the crap. We are not making one sacrifice. We are not facing any dangers... we are not feeling any hardships or pain, financially or physically. Boost our taxes to about 50% of our gross income to pay the almost one trillion dollars this war cost.. then, yeah... we're dealt a hand in this game. In this war... the only ones we are forcing to take a bite of that shit sandwich are our soldiers and their families.

Hollyweird

Cosmo wrote:

...
It's funny to us. We as comfortable on our homes, a half a world away from the crap. We are not making one sacrifice. We are not facing any dangers... we are not feeling any hardships or pain, financially or physically. Boost our taxes to about 50% of our gross income to pay the almost one trillion dollars this war cost.. then, yeah... we're dealt a hand in this game. In this war... the only ones we are forcing to take a bite of that shit sandwich are our soldiers and their families.

I don't know about the "only ones" paying for it, but they are surely paying harder then we are. However, been to the gas station lately? You ain't seen nothing yet. How bout your tax bill? You ain't seen nothing yet? You and I and the rest of the world are paying for this shit too. Don't kid yourself.

Hollyweird

Cosmo wrote:

...
It's funny to us. We as comfortable on our homes, a half a world away from the crap. We are not making one sacrifice. We are not facing any dangers... we are not feeling any hardships or pain, financially or physically. Boost our taxes to about 50% of our gross income to pay the almost one trillion dollars this war cost.. then, yeah... we're dealt a hand in this game. In this war... the only ones we are forcing to take a bite of that shit sandwich are our soldiers and their families.

I don't know about the "only ones" paying for it, but they are surely paying harder then we are. However, been to the gas station lately? You ain't seen nothing yet. How bout your tax bill? You ain't seen nothing yet? You and I and the rest of the world are paying for this shit too. Don't kid yourself.

Cosmo

Hollyweird wrote:

I don't know about the "only ones" paying for it, but they are surely paying harder then we are. However, been to the gas station lately? You ain't seen nothing yet. How bout your tax bill? You ain't seen nothing yet? You and I and the rest of the world are paying for this shit too. Don't kid yourself.

...
Then... if we ARE paying for it... is it worth it?
Let's say a democratic and soverign Iraq emerges from this... does anyone believe that it will spread to theocratic loony bins such as Iran? Or oppressive monarchies such as Saudi Arabia or Kuwait? And will those changes come peacefully... or will the status quo governments be willing to spill blood in order to maintain power?
A more realistic outcome would be a Shi'ite Majority running Iraq and alligning itself with Iran, the only other Shi'ia Majority in the region. Shi'tes dominate Iran and Iraq, but are a minority in the Sunni dominated Middle East. It is more likely that they will be like minded, than remain divided.
...
As of right now... it is the soldiers and their families that are carrying the load in Iraq... not you or me. The cost of this war is not our burden to pay.... like cowards, we are passing on the bill to our children and their children to pay. We are NOT taking any personal responsibility for a war that was commenced on our watch.
...
I would love to evacuate our guys from Iraq... but, it is a logistically tough problem to solve. There are so many variables that could result in worse conditions. We have driven this thing into the ditch and our idiot driver kept us on the same course, driving us deeper and deeper into the swamp.
So, yeah... you and I agree... we HAVE to stay. My view is that we are trapped there and doing for the 'good of the Iraqi people' is just another bullshit excuse made behind closed White House doors to justify our poor decision making.

Heineken Helen

Hollyweird wrote:

This is worse than Bollocks. It's a dog's Bollock's! First what's with all this "you americans" crap anyways. Last time I checked there were like 270 million of us and we all have opinions that we are entitled to express. We are not one large mindless space alien intent on world domination. Ok sometimes we are. And were really sorry about that. Many of us are just transplanted Europeans so were genetically pre-disposed towards oppressing people. Cmon now. Ireland is such a pretty happy place with the best beer in the world. What did we ever do to you other than take in all your fucking starving potato famine refugees?

That said I do have issue with your view of the UN. The UN is used and abused by everyone and it is nothing more than a US funded debating society with no real power. If you can cite one instance in which the UN actually kept the peace, it's original fucking purpose, let me know. Last time I checked it was in Korea and that still cost 30,000 US lives. Other than that it's a waste of perfectly good Manhattan real estate.

take in? Take in? Huh? Who took us in? As far as I'm aware, there were no fucking visa requirements back then... the country was a free for all, wasn't it? Besides we were hardly welcomed with open arms.. what were the signs? No Irish, no blacks, no dogs or something like that.

And what did you do to us? You never picked on us individually... but I don't think many people can possibly deny that this American 'my dick is bigger than yours' mentality is destroying the world. The world that I and all Irish people (not to mention the billions of others) happen to live in :rolleyes: . Do you have to invade Ireland for me to have a RIGHT to be upset?