I agree with Hinny (I think it was) that the world is probably just waiting to see who gets voted in and then decisions will be made. Whilst Bush can go back to his ranch and live off his HUGE pension not to mention his own personal fortune made from this mess... it's just sick. It's like something you'd hear about in one of those dictatorship countries... and yet half of his people supported him? It's not that he was all that convincing in fairness, so I really don't understand... he didn't threaten to beat the soles of your feet if you disagreed... how could one nation (well the half that supported him) be soooo fucking stupid? How could one nation support their government invading and destroying a country that has absolutely NOTHING to do with them and is no threat to them whatsoever? It's ridiculous.
you'd be amazed just how isolated and out of touch most americans are.
send in more troops for a period of 3 months - iraq undergoes fair and democratic elections ... the US/British write a huge cheque compensating iraq for fucking them up and then get the hell out of dodge ... iraq can hire whoever the heck they want to reconstruct the country and it will be up to them to decide if they want to disintegrate into a civil war or not ...
Now that's not a bad idea... although I know my want to see the US punished probably isn't fair on the Iraqis... but isn't that STILL too easy? They're still buying their way out. Although I guess as long as they're in there, they can keep stealing all of Iraq's resources.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Hired killers??? You make it sound like they're hitmen... they're not... they're just bored and unemployed with no prospects and they like blowing stuff up on videogames... so what's the ideal job? Join the army. The Irish army aren't paid builders either... but every soldier has a trade... don't they in the US army? Besides... anyone can be a labourer... make the troops do hard labour over there... that may go down well.
it's a bill hicks quote. and i think we'd be better off hiring iraqis to do this. let them make some money, start acquiring skills, put together an economy, that sort of thing.
i like the idea of pulling out most of our troops, and just leaving enough nearby to kill al-qaeda when they poke their heads out. they do well in hiding, but they will be easily dispatched if they actually try to take over.
on a different note, does anyone find it dishonorable to just say "sorry we bombed the shit out of your country and killed your citizens! we'll just be going now. Do you guys think you can clean up our mess! thanks, bro. We'll pay you back later, i swear. Good luck with your civil war!"
you'd be amazed just how isolated and out of touch most americans are.
Probably :( I really can't get my head around it though... I mean it was GLARINGLY obvious to the rest of us before that first election... I thought it would actually be much worse to be honest, I thought Bush would lead to WW3. I mean our government are corrupt bastards too... I'm not just saying it's the American government... but at least we're no threat to the entire world.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
You have good points... I definitely agree with the US not being able to make a penny off this mess and having to fund the clean up. But I hear a lot of soldiers aren't even accountable for any crimes they've committed over there? Why should they have it so easy? it just sounds like it's all too smoothe for yas... ok let's pull the troops out and everyone thinks 'yeh, let's bring our boys home' and then everyone will be happy. You and I both know that if that happens Iraq will NEVER get the cleanup that it needs. It will be in the news for a couple of months and then people will stop giving a fuck. The sad reality is that once US troops stop dying, nobody's gonna care about Iraq anymore.
ireland? the eu? the un? werent you just praising their international humanitarian efforts?
granted, no one will really care in the us anymore, though id almost most say most dont care now either. we're all focused on hillary vs obama and the drama of a close race. it has less to do with stances on issues than it does an exciting american idol competition!
lastly, american troops will NEVER be tried for abuses over there. neither will the millions of aid money that went missing be recovered from the corporate directors who stole it. it just won't happen.
i like the idea of pulling out most of our troops, and just leaving enough nearby to kill al-qaeda when they poke their heads out. they do well in hiding, but they will be easily dispatched if they actually try to take over.
cos they all wear a tshirt saying 'I'm in Al Qaeda'? you do know they look JUST the same as the rest of the Iraqi's right?
on a different note, does anyone find it dishonorable to just say "sorry we bombed the shit out of your country and killed your citizens! we'll just be going now. Do you guys think you can clean up our mess! thanks, bro. We'll pay you back later, i swear."
absolutely.. that's the whole point of the thread.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Now that's not a bad idea... although I know my want to see the US punished probably isn't fair on the Iraqis... but isn't that STILL too easy? They're still buying their way out. Although I guess as long as they're in there, they can keep stealing all of Iraq's resources.
no ... writing a cheque for the gov't that ISN'T going to their friends is very difficult ... definitely not the easy way out ...
Probably :( I really can't get my head around it though... I mean it was GLARINGLY obvious to the rest of us before that first election... I thought it would actually be much worse to be honest, I thought Bush would lead to WW3. I mean our government are corrupt bastards too... I'm not just saying it's the American government... but at least we're no threat to the entire world.
it was glaringly obvious to some of us too, but we were outnumbered and people were scared. the invincible bubble most americans felt was shattered and we acted like kids having their first nightmare, totally insane and irrational and grasping at straws. i think in the long run the experience will have been good for us. but at the time, it was like mass hysteria.
as to the neocons, i dont know if it's corruption as just blind and frightening ideology. they view this as a holy war and their rightful place as rulers of the world. it's pretty spooky.
ireland? the eu? the un? werent you just praising their international humanitarian efforts?
Oh we're all as bad as you... we just don't have the capabilities to be dangerous with our couldn't give a fuck about anyone else attitude. Yeh, we'll go in when the spotlight's still on Iraq... but it takes a BIG spotlight to get anyone to do anything... and it takes a long time to prepare.
granted, no one will really care in the us anymore, though id almost most say most dont care now either. we're all focused on hillary vs obama and the drama of a close race. it has less to do with stances on issues than it does an exciting american idol competition!
I feel the conspiracy theorist in me JUST fighting to get out with this paragraph. Wag the dog is coming to mind.
lastly, american troops will NEVER be tried for abuses over there. neither will the millions of aid money that went missing be recovered from the corporate directors who stole it. it just won't happen.
I agree :( and that's simply fucking disgusting.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
no ... writing a cheque for the gov't that ISN'T going to their friends is very difficult ... definitely not the easy way out ...
True... but it's still just money... its not as if they don't have enough of it.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
i mean just the higher up guys we know by name. the guys who show up on videos.
heh also i should read the first page of threads. heheh
but once they shave the beards off and maybe put on a pair of jeans and grow a moustache, they'll just look like any other middle eastern.
Well in fairness, you should at LEAST read the first POST
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Oh we're all as bad as you... we just don't have the capabilities to be dangerous with our couldn't give a fuck about anyone else attitude. Yeh, we'll go in when the spotlight's still on Iraq... but it takes a BIG spotlight to get anyone to do anything... and it takes a long time to prepare.
I feel the conspiracy theorist in me JUST fighting to get out with this paragraph. Wag the dog is coming to mind.
I agree :( and that's simply fucking disgusting.
for better and worse, america protects its own. it's our greatest strength and most glaring weakness.
You fucking started the mess... you go in, destroy a country for absolutely no good reason (oil NOT being a good reason), take everything you want from it... and then just fuck off and leave THEM to clean up the mess? :mad: Your troops should be over there NOT intimidating, not fighting... but building at YOUR expense... and cleaning up... and trying to make things right. If you can't fucking do it, at least give the UN some support and let us go in and do it properly :cool:
You can't get out of it this easily.
this is why i always say the NEOCON plan for Iraq is going just as planned... when Colin Powell said "you break it, you own it", that is exactly what they wanted... to own it... and establich a permamnet military presence and have an oil rich client state with a seat on OPEC
destroy the infrastructure... fuel all sides of the conflict, pitting muslim against muslim... let it destablize to the point people argue "you cant leave it like that, it will be a bloodbath"(as if it isnt already?)... how long is long enough? what is it isnt stabe in 30 years? stay the whole time, helping fuel the anger, violence, and hate towards the west? i dont fucking think so
people think iraq is a failure... it is a MASSIVE success for the people that wanted for these very reasons in the first place
The US Military specializes in breaking things... not fixing things
You fucking started the mess... you go in, destroy a country for absolutely no good reason (oil NOT being a good reason), take everything you want from it... and then just fuck off and leave THEM to clean up the mess? :mad: Your troops should be over there NOT intimidating, not fighting... but building at YOUR expense... and cleaning up... and trying to make things right. If you can't fucking do it, at least give the UN some support and let us go in and do it properly :cool:
You can't get out of it this easily.
Right, so we should have asked Hitler to keep troops in France and England after the mess he made?
Iraqis want us out, in case you didn't notice. Almost every poll done over there shows that.
people think iraq is a failure... it is a MASSIVE success for the people that wanted for these very reasons in the first place
I wouldn't say they consider it a massive success, but this is a point most people miss. The plan has not failed. I don't think it's gone quite as smoothly as they thought it would though.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
I wouldn't say they consider it a massive success, but this is a point most people miss. The plan has not failed. I don't think it's gone quite as smoothly as they thought it would though.
if mccain some how win in novemeber... the plan went perfectly...
this is going to cost about $2-3 trillion by time it is all said and done i believe... that means with all the privatization of everything military related a major chink of that $2 trillion went into corporate pockets... not to mention the control of the worlds second largest oil reserves, a seat on OPEC, and a permanent large military presence in the middle east
I have argued ALL of this shite time and time again here... and that was not the intention of this thread. Your points have nothing to do with this thread... your points are all concerning the US going in... nothing to do with them coming out. I would like this thread to stay ON TOPIC for once... so I'm not even gonna reply to your post cos I've given those answers over and over again.
no, those are all reasons your call for the UN to come in and clean up this mess don't wash. the UN has been historically ineffective, and at times even corrupt and enabling...
do you live in reality? we spent how long bombing their country? how many iraqi civilians died in "shock and awe" and subsequent actions? how many people over there lost friends, family, and loved ones thanks to american bombs? and now we say "it's ok guys, we dont wanna hurt anyone, we just wanna help" while we sit and raid their oilfields and allow our companies to essentially loot the country and they're supposed to just forget about all that and say ok and welcome us with open arms? not a month goes by we don't hear about millions of dollars in aid money disappearing from the rebuilders' hands or some private firm's security force guns down a family.
let me guess... you're still crestfallen and confused that we werent hailed as liberators when we get there arent you? they don't trust us. we betrayed them in 92, we betrayed afghanistan in the 70s, and we've done it many other times in many other countries. why SHOULD they trust us? you dont just get handed trust and respect, you ahve to earn it. and we havent. that is what is preventing it and that is why the mission cannot be converted. nobody trusts or believes us. we're not liberators, we're an imperial occupying army.
no, i'm saying that given all that (and i won't argue any of those points for the purpose of this discussion), they should EXPECT us to start helping them and take full advantage of our fat, lazy, capitalist selves by milking as much out of it as they can, then kick us to the curb....
with regard to missing aid money: i have conceded that mismanagement is afoot. that particular point is fucked up, i agree wholeheartedly
no, i'm saying that given all that (and i won't argue any of those points for the purpose of this discussion), they should EXPECT us to start helping them and take full advantage of our fat, lazy, capitalist selves by milking as much out of it as they can, then kick us to the curb....
with regard to missing aid money: i have conceded that mismanagement is afoot. that particular point is fucked up, i agree wholeheartedly
given how quickly we came in and steamrolled their entire army and turned their cities to dust... why would they think they could just "kick us to the curb" when they are done with us? do you not realize that the problem is that they see this is already happening, only it is america that is milking as much out of them as we can with the intent of kicking them to the curb once we are done with them? that is how they perceive it. and that is why they will not accept our help and mistrust our every motive.
I agree with you on this... troops CAN go in as peace keepers/peace enforcers... what exactly are they doing there at the moment that's so important? Just both sides shooting at eachother? what's the point of that? While they're there... they should be helping to rebuild the infrastructure the way the UN/Nato/EU troops do when they go in. Help build up communities and relationships with the locals... prove you're there to help rather than just blow stuff up. The US made sure they've got every available person in the military... why not use them for a good cause for once?
i agree, but i think the difference here is that you think us forces are busy attacking, while i see that at this point they are busy defending themselves. hard to put down your gun and pick up the hammer when guerilla-style forces from whatever faction of whatever set of people is shooting at you. i think we're willing to pick up the hammers as soon as the bullets stop flying. apparently, though, since the world's attitude towards us is so shitty, that's nothing more than a utopian hope....
I agree with you on this... troops CAN go in as peace keepers/peace enforcers... what exactly are they doing there at the moment that's so important? Just both sides shooting at eachother? what's the point of that? While they're there... they should be helping to rebuild the infrastructure the way the UN/Nato/EU troops do when they go in. Help build up communities and relationships with the locals... prove you're there to help rather than just blow stuff up. The US made sure they've got every available person in the military... why not use them for a good cause for once?
Here is the problem in my opinion... This isn't the "typical" war, where a country blows another country up, defeats their military, then helps them rebuild. In Iraq, the outside terrorist/insurgent/evil-doers (whatever you want to call them ) don't care or don't want reconstruction and a productive Iraqi governement. Government officials are targeted constantly and innocent Iraqis are blown up at places where they are trying to sign up for rebuilding jobs, because they are viewed as working with the US.
Having us stay there and oversee the rebuilding isn't going to be productive in the least bit. The normal Iraqis don't trust us (rightfully so), and the terrorist forces won't stop targeting us troops/workers as long as we are there. We need a UN force to oversee the security & rebuilding (on our dime, of course), I just don't see the UN being able to put together a large enough force.
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
You fucking started the mess... you go in, destroy a country for absolutely no good reason (oil NOT being a good reason), take everything you want from it... and then just fuck off and leave THEM to clean up the mess? :mad: Your troops should be over there NOT intimidating, not fighting... but building at YOUR expense... and cleaning up... and trying to make things right. If you can't fucking do it, at least give the UN some support and let us go in and do it properly :cool:
You can't get out of it this easily.
welcome to 2008.... It's been going on in the same fashion like a broken record for several decades...
Greed and exploitation combined with a "we take the right to do whatever we please attitude"
But I'm not supposed to say that...
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Here is the problem in my opinion... This isn't the "typical" war, where a country blows another country up, defeats their military, then helps them rebuild. In Iraq, the outside terrorist/insurgent/evil-doers (whatever you want to call them ) don't care or don't want reconstruction and a productive Iraqi governement. Government officials are targeted constantly and innocent Iraqis are blown up at places where they are trying to sign up for rebuilding jobs, because they are viewed as working with the US.
Having us stay there and oversee the rebuilding isn't going to be productive in the least bit. The normal Iraqis don't trust us (rightfully so), and the terrorist forces won't stop targeting us troops/workers as long as we are there. We need a UN force to oversee the security & rebuilding (on our dime, of course), I just don't see the UN being able to put together a large enough force.
well put, except i don't see the UN putting together enough of a force to be effective when the biggest contributor of troops to UN peacekeepers at the moment is pakistan with about 15000
As we withdraw troops I expect al Qaeda will attempt to take advantage of that and that's why we should try to withdraw slowly and reserve the right to modify the plan as the situation warrants. However I don't believe al Qaeda is the force in Iraq that George Bush and John McCain want you to believe so they can continue to line the pockets of Haliburton and the oil companies. As we remove the troops from Iraq we remove the target of the violence and Iraq can finally move forward with their experiment in independent democracy with all the pros and cons that carries with it. If they truly want freedom they will soon learn that it ain't free. I agree we do own the burden of fixing what we broke but at this point we are just trying to figure out the best way to fix it. We either need more troops or less. It's pure speculation what will work until we try and see what happens.
Comments
you'd be amazed just how isolated and out of touch most americans are.
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
it's a bill hicks quote. and i think we'd be better off hiring iraqis to do this. let them make some money, start acquiring skills, put together an economy, that sort of thing.
on a different note, does anyone find it dishonorable to just say "sorry we bombed the shit out of your country and killed your citizens! we'll just be going now. Do you guys think you can clean up our mess! thanks, bro. We'll pay you back later, i swear. Good luck with your civil war!"
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
ireland? the eu? the un? werent you just praising their international humanitarian efforts?
granted, no one will really care in the us anymore, though id almost most say most dont care now either. we're all focused on hillary vs obama and the drama of a close race. it has less to do with stances on issues than it does an exciting american idol competition!
lastly, american troops will NEVER be tried for abuses over there. neither will the millions of aid money that went missing be recovered from the corporate directors who stole it. it just won't happen.
absolutely.. that's the whole point of the thread.
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
no ... writing a cheque for the gov't that ISN'T going to their friends is very difficult ... definitely not the easy way out ...
it was glaringly obvious to some of us too, but we were outnumbered and people were scared. the invincible bubble most americans felt was shattered and we acted like kids having their first nightmare, totally insane and irrational and grasping at straws. i think in the long run the experience will have been good for us. but at the time, it was like mass hysteria.
as to the neocons, i dont know if it's corruption as just blind and frightening ideology. they view this as a holy war and their rightful place as rulers of the world. it's pretty spooky.
i mean just the higher up guys we know by name. the guys who show up on videos.
heh also i should read the first page of threads. heheh
Oh we're all as bad as you... we just don't have the capabilities to be dangerous with our couldn't give a fuck about anyone else attitude. Yeh, we'll go in when the spotlight's still on Iraq... but it takes a BIG spotlight to get anyone to do anything... and it takes a long time to prepare.
I agree :( and that's simply fucking disgusting.
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Well in fairness, you should at LEAST read the first POST
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
for better and worse, america protects its own. it's our greatest strength and most glaring weakness.
i dont have time for that! i'm late for work already!
this is why i always say the NEOCON plan for Iraq is going just as planned... when Colin Powell said "you break it, you own it", that is exactly what they wanted... to own it... and establich a permamnet military presence and have an oil rich client state with a seat on OPEC
destroy the infrastructure... fuel all sides of the conflict, pitting muslim against muslim... let it destablize to the point people argue "you cant leave it like that, it will be a bloodbath"(as if it isnt already?)... how long is long enough? what is it isnt stabe in 30 years? stay the whole time, helping fuel the anger, violence, and hate towards the west? i dont fucking think so
people think iraq is a failure... it is a MASSIVE success for the people that wanted for these very reasons in the first place
The US Military specializes in breaking things... not fixing things
Iraqis want us out, in case you didn't notice. Almost every poll done over there shows that.
trust me ... they don't ...
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
if mccain some how win in novemeber... the plan went perfectly...
this is going to cost about $2-3 trillion by time it is all said and done i believe... that means with all the privatization of everything military related a major chink of that $2 trillion went into corporate pockets... not to mention the control of the worlds second largest oil reserves, a seat on OPEC, and a permanent large military presence in the middle east
Obama 08
no, those are all reasons your call for the UN to come in and clean up this mess don't wash. the UN has been historically ineffective, and at times even corrupt and enabling...
ebay isn't evil people are
The South is Much Obliged
no, i'm saying that given all that (and i won't argue any of those points for the purpose of this discussion), they should EXPECT us to start helping them and take full advantage of our fat, lazy, capitalist selves by milking as much out of it as they can, then kick us to the curb....
with regard to missing aid money: i have conceded that mismanagement is afoot. that particular point is fucked up, i agree wholeheartedly
ebay isn't evil people are
The South is Much Obliged
given how quickly we came in and steamrolled their entire army and turned their cities to dust... why would they think they could just "kick us to the curb" when they are done with us? do you not realize that the problem is that they see this is already happening, only it is america that is milking as much out of them as we can with the intent of kicking them to the curb once we are done with them? that is how they perceive it. and that is why they will not accept our help and mistrust our every motive.
i agree, but i think the difference here is that you think us forces are busy attacking, while i see that at this point they are busy defending themselves. hard to put down your gun and pick up the hammer when guerilla-style forces from whatever faction of whatever set of people is shooting at you. i think we're willing to pick up the hammers as soon as the bullets stop flying. apparently, though, since the world's attitude towards us is so shitty, that's nothing more than a utopian hope....
ebay isn't evil people are
The South is Much Obliged
Here is the problem in my opinion... This isn't the "typical" war, where a country blows another country up, defeats their military, then helps them rebuild. In Iraq, the outside terrorist/insurgent/evil-doers (whatever you want to call them
Having us stay there and oversee the rebuilding isn't going to be productive in the least bit. The normal Iraqis don't trust us (rightfully so), and the terrorist forces won't stop targeting us troops/workers as long as we are there. We need a UN force to oversee the security & rebuilding (on our dime, of course), I just don't see the UN being able to put together a large enough force.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
welcome to 2008....
Greed and exploitation combined with a "we take the right to do whatever we please attitude"
But I'm not supposed to say that...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
well put, except i don't see the UN putting together enough of a force to be effective when the biggest contributor of troops to UN peacekeepers at the moment is pakistan with about 15000
ebay isn't evil people are
The South is Much Obliged