there's no method in madness in those situations..look at Palestine, the ethnic conflicts in Africa, Kosovo, even ex-yougoslavia is still very fragile.. the kind of resentment that chaos of that type engender can last centuries, maybe looks like it disappear for a while but then resurfaces again :rolleyes: (don't ask me why, fuck if I understand why people are so attached to those notions of nationality, religion, ethnicity, etc..)
Two wrongs don't make a right..
I'm not saying this is the right thing, just that there is NO right thing and the West just has to accept that Iraq is gonna be fucked every which way- withdraw now or later. What is needed, as others have pointed out, is a big cheque, ala the Marshall Plan post WW2
You fucking started the mess... you go in, destroy a country for absolutely no good reason (oil NOT being a good reason), take everything you want from it... and then just fuck off and leave THEM to clean up the mess? :mad: Your troops should be over there NOT intimidating, not fighting... but building at YOUR expense... and cleaning up... and trying to make things right. If you can't fucking do it, at least give the UN some support and let us go in and do it properly :cool:
You can't get out of it this easily.
I agree with much of what you are saying. We should have been supporting the UN this whole time and letting them take the lead on this deal. When we leave I think we need to support the UN as much as possible in the rebuilding effort.
That Said. Having our military in Iraq is not doing anyone any good including the Iraq's. I am not suggesting we shouldn't own up to our responsibilty. We created this mess and we have to be part of the solution, however I believe that solution will move along at a much greater pace once our military is removed from the equation.
You fucking started the mess... you go in, destroy a country for absolutely no good reason (oil NOT being a good reason), take everything you want from it... and then just fuck off and leave THEM to clean up the mess? :mad: Your troops should be over there NOT intimidating, not fighting... but building at YOUR expense... and cleaning up... and trying to make things right. If you can't fucking do it, at least give the UN some support and let us go in and do it properly :cool:
You can't get out of it this easily.
first, who are you talking to when you say "you"?
I never supported Bush or the war.
Never should have happen. Hopefully, once sanity is restored in November we can do something.
If we leave, they'll figure it out. The Vietnamese figured it out and so will the iraqis.
Clearly, we didn't give a shit about the iraqis in the first place.
You fucking started the mess... you go in, destroy a country for absolutely no good reason (oil NOT being a good reason), take everything you want from it... and then just fuck off and leave THEM to clean up the mess? :mad: Your troops should be over there NOT intimidating, not fighting... but building at YOUR expense... and cleaning up... and trying to make things right. If you can't fucking do it, at least give the UN some support and let us go in and do it properly :cool:
You can't get out of it this easily.
first, who are you talking to when you say "you"?
I never supported Bush or the war.
Never should have happened. Hopefully, once sanity is restored in November we can do the only thing that makes sense...
The reversal of a policy that hasn't worked and is too expensive to maintain.
If we leave, they'll figure it out. The Vietnamese figured it out and so will the iraqis.
We'll send in diplomats, bring the opposing sides to the table and if things get out of hand we'll take care of things the old school way...
I don't agree with the original post, but if you're paying taxes to the federal government, you do support this war. I know I do, and I'm not gonna say otherwise. Sad but true.
You fucking started the mess... you go in, destroy a country for absolutely no good reason (oil NOT being a good reason), take everything you want from it... and then just fuck off and leave THEM to clean up the mess? :mad: Your troops should be over there NOT intimidating, not fighting... but building at YOUR expense... and cleaning up... and trying to make things right. If you can't fucking do it, at least give the UN some support and let us go in and do it properly :cool:
You can't get out of it this easily.
I've seen enough American kids die over a money grab, not to mention the civilian deaths. I've seen their government take vacations during some of the worst violence. They are being trained by the US Military but choose not to defend their country from civil war. Our military could be over there handing out flowers and candy and we would STILL be intimidating the people that don't want us there.
I don't agree with the original post, but if you're paying taxes to the federal government, you do support this war. I know I do, and I'm not gonna say otherwise. Sad but true.
I agree on a technicality, I guess.
However it's a little like blaming the 9/11 passengers for slamming into the towers because they bought the ticket.
Our country has been hijacked and is on a course for disaster. I paid for the ride (with my taxes) but I didn't sign up for this.
I paid for the ride (with my taxes) but I didn't sign up for this.
Don't sell yourself short.
You didn't pay for the ride.
The conductor threw you on the ride and forced the fare out of your hand under threat of imprisonment if you didnt.
US tax law is an abomination which forces people under duress to either fund a machine they may or may not agree with or otherwise incriminate themselves and serve hard time.
Hardly the ideals our country was founded upon.
:rolleyes:
And to the OP.
Why do some of you think leaving troops in Iraq is a good thing?
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
I don't agree with the original post, but if you're paying taxes to the federal government, you do support this war. I know I do, and I'm not gonna say otherwise. Sad but true.
I'm going to agree with Drifting here. This is absolutely not true, unless you are voluntarily paying taxes so the war can be prosecuted. Personally, I'm not voluntarily paying taxes. There's no way this can be twisted as either explicit or implicit support of the war.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
I'm going to agree with Drifting here. This is absolutely not true, unless you are voluntarily paying taxes so the war can be prosecuted. Personally, I'm not voluntarily paying taxes. There's no way this can be twisted as either explicit or implicit support of the war.
We do voluntarily pay taxes, no one holds a gun to our heads. It's not like if we don't, we'll be blown to little bits as many civilians and soldiers are in Iraq all the time. Going to prison and dying aren't even comparable. We support the war because if we don't, our lives become disrupted and inconvenient. But because we support it, other people die. That's something all of us should recognize.
I don't say this because I think we should feel guilty either. I was born into this machine, I didn't create it. But I am a part of it nonetheless. And for us to sit here and say "we don't support this war" would be wrong, and it makes Americans look like jerks when we do. Most non-Americans reading this thread would agree with that I'd imagine.
We do voluntarily pay taxes, no one holds a gun to our heads. It's not like if we don't, we'll be blown to little bits as many civilians and soldiers are in Iraq all the time. Going to prison and dying aren't even comparable. We support the war because if we don't, our lives become disrupted and inconvenient. But because we support it, other people die. That's something all of us should recognize.
I don't say this because I think we should feel guilty either. I was born into this machine, I didn't create it. But I am a part of it nonetheless. And for us to sit here and say "we don't support this war" would be wrong, and it makes Americans look like jerks when we do. Most non-Americans reading this thread would agree with that I'd imagine.
Let me get this straight. You pay taxes because you want to? Really?
Do you really not understand the force of the government? There are actually examples of the IRS using weapons. Federal Marshall come in and seize property. If you don't pay your taxes first they'll start with fines and penalties. Then comes liens and garnished wages. Then comes criminal and civil action. Then comes either incarceration if that's what you want, or guns if you don't submit.
I am definitely paying taxes because I am forced to. There is nothing voluntary about it.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
it's a bill hicks quote. and i think we'd be better off hiring iraqis to do this. let them make some money, start acquiring skills, put together an economy, that sort of thing.
taht's what's already 'happening':
US taxpayers pay billion to Multinationals (mostly US based, friend of Bush administration) to 'rebuild' Iraq. Multinational hire Iraqi subcontractors (who risk their life just 'working for the yanks') for a fraction of the price, not enough to do a proper, lasting job of it and pocket the rest.
Iraqis are well educated and skilled as a whole.
Iraq has all the resources and skills to have a prosper economy. What they need is security!
Right, so we should have asked Hitler to keep troops in France and England after the mess he made?
Iraqis want us out, in case you didn't notice. Almost every poll done over there shows that.
Hitler did not go in pretending to come rescue us, nor him coming sparkled a civil war in a country that was an artificial construct to start with.
and by the way..the German troops never set foot in England..
Iraqis want you out EVENTUALLY..but the accounts I heard, as unwelcome as you/we are now, for the ordinary people, it would be worse without..the US/UK troups are currently keeping a lid on teh boiling pan.
now what we need to work out is how to turn of the heat..not remove the lid and let everything boils out!
Let me get this straight. You pay taxes because you want to? Really?
Do you really not understand the force of the government? There are actually examples of the IRS using weapons. Federal Marshall come in and seize property. If you don't pay your taxes first they'll start with fines and penalties. Then comes liens and garnished wages. Then comes criminal and civil action. Then comes either incarceration if that's what you want, or guns if you don't submit.
I am definitely paying taxes because I am forced to. There is nothing voluntary about it.
I didn't say I want to pay taxes, I'm saying no one is holding a gun to my head. You won't die if you don't pay your taxes. But people are dying right now because you do. That's all I'm saying. I don't think anyone needs to feel bad or guilty about it, but we look like jerks when we say we don't support the war. It's like saying "I don't support pollution", but I drive a car.
We do voluntarily pay taxes, no one holds a gun to our heads. It's not like if we don't, we'll be blown to little bits as many civilians and soldiers are in Iraq all the time. Going to prison and dying aren't even comparable.
speak for yourself! of course we forced to pay taxes. I don't even know how you would go about NOT paying taxes, they are taken out of your paycheck automatically (honestly can anyone explain that? I've never got that). I'm terrified of prison, it's definitely akin to a gun held to my head! plus taxes are used for more than the war. If you didn't pay taxes, there would be no provision of public goods.
and I just saw your line that "people are dying because we pay our taxes." you cannot possibly make that direct connection. as I said we have to pay taxes for lots of other things, and we have no control over where the money goes.
You fucking started the mess... you go in, destroy a country for absolutely no good reason (oil NOT being a good reason), take everything you want from it... and then just fuck off and leave THEM to clean up the mess? :mad: Your troops should be over there NOT intimidating, not fighting... but building at YOUR expense... and cleaning up... and trying to make things right. If you can't fucking do it, at least give the UN some support and let us go in and do it properly :cool:
You can't get out of it this easily.
...
You (and Colin Powell) are right. We broke it, we bought it. This is America's mess to clean up and we SHOULD feel responsible and accountable for its clean up.
The way to do so is NOT to reduce the number of soldiers to provide security... but, to INCREASE the number of 'Quality' boots on the ground. Nothing gets done without the security in place. No rebuilding, no commerce, no government.
Right now, the security is a bit better because the U.S. has quit Staying The Bad Course we had originally set. The increase of U.S. troops has lead to more security. The problem is... a surge doesn't work.. an escalation does. We have to maintain the greater number of troops to provide security.
How can we get to a reduction of U.S. troops? By getting the Iraqi Army back in place. That is not easy. The Iraqis hold more alligence to their tribal backgrounds, than to their alligence to their country and their government. We knew this before we went in, but went in anyway.. hoping that our dreams would come true.
Command and Control is currently done by the U.S. military. Logistical support, supply lines, medical and air support are all done by the U.S. We can say we have trainned 300,000 Iraqis (according to the 2003 Rumsfeld/Bush reports), but what about their command? Who do we put into those positions? Sadam Hussein's former officers? We dismantled their command and control and it takes years to train officers and leaders. And when their Command Chain is in place.. do we place our troops under their command? NO.
And what about the supply lines? It is U.S. Air Force C-17s and their crews that are providing the links to keep the forces going. Does anyone think we will leave them behind? hat about the AH-64 Apaches and UH-60 Blackhawk that provide air cover? The F-16s and F-15s that can strike at insurgent positions? How about the Med Evac helicopters? How can anyone expect Iraq to be a stable nation without those resources?
Then, there's the medical support the U.S. provides. The reason why we are seeing lower number of U.S. soldier deaths in Iraq than in Viet Nam is due to the advancements made with Med Evac and forward operating surgical hospitals. C-17s can and are being configured as airborne trauma center transports. The worst cases can be flown to Germany in airborne hospitals. Soldiers who bled to death in the jungles of Viet Nam would have had a better chance of survival if we had these tools in 1969.
So, a 'Cut and Run' scenario that the psycho Right Wing pundits are always crying about is not going to happen. We cannot cut the number of combat troops without cutting back the number of support personel and equipment. We are there for the long run... that is our fate because this war was of our choosing.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
You (and Colin Powell) are right. We broke it, we bought it. This is America's mess to clean up and we SHOULD feel responsible and accountable for its clean up.
The way to do so is NOT to reduce the number of soldiers to provide security... but, to INCREASE the number of 'Quality' boots on the ground. Nothing gets done without the security in place. No rebuilding, no commerce, no government.
Right now, the security is a bit better because the U.S. has quit Staying The Bad Course we had originally set. The increase of U.S. troops has lead to more security. The problem is... a surge doesn't work.. an escalation does. We have to maintain the greater number of troops to provide security.
How can we get to a reduction of U.S. troops? By getting the Iraqi Army back in place. That is not easy. The Iraqis hold more alligence to their tribal backgrounds, than to their alligence to their country and their government. We knew this before we went in, but went in anyway.. hoping that our dreams would come true.
Command and Control is currently done by the U.S. military. Logistical support, supply lines, medical and air support are all done by the U.S. We can say we have trainned 300,000 Iraqis (according to the 2003 Rumsfeld/Bush reports), but what about their command? Who do we put into those positions? Sadam Hussein's former officers? We dismantled their command and control and it takes years to train officers and leaders. And when their Command Chain is in place.. do we place our troops under their command? NO.
And what about the supply lines? It is U.S. Air Force C-17s and their crews that are providing the links to keep the forces going. Does anyone think we will leave them behind? hat about the AH-64 Apaches and UH-60 Blackhawk that provide air cover? The F-16s and F-15s that can strike at insurgent positions? How about the Med Evac helicopters? How can anyone expect Iraq to be a stable nation without those resources?
Then, there's the medical support the U.S. provides. The reason why we are seeing lower number of U.S. soldier deaths in Iraq than in Viet Nam is due to the advancements made with Med Evac and forward operating surgical hospitals. C-17s can and are being configured as airborne trauma center transports. The worst cases can be flown to Germany in airborne hospitals. Soldiers who bled to death in the jungles of Viet Nam would have had a better chance of survival if we had these tools in 1969.
So, a 'Cut and Run' scenario that the psycho Right Wing pundits are always crying about is not going to happen. We cannot cut the number of combat troops without cutting back the number of support personel and equipment. We are there for the long run... that is our fate because this war was of our choosing.
WE invade, fuck up a country, kill tens of thousnads of its civilians. Its my guess, and going on a limb here, I"m thinking they want us the fuck out asap.
You fucking started the mess... you go in, destroy a country for absolutely no good reason (oil NOT being a good reason), take everything you want from it... and then just fuck off and leave THEM to clean up the mess? :mad: Your troops should be over there NOT intimidating, not fighting... but building at YOUR expense... and cleaning up... and trying to make things right. If you can't fucking do it, at least give the UN some support and let us go in and do it properly :cool:
You can't get out of it this easily.
oh i believe the troops should be pulled out of iraq. do you think they should stay indefinitely and allow the country to continue to spiral hellward cause of some 'pottery barn' motto. you break it, you fix it is bullshit. it doesnt matter when the troops leave, iraq will collapse in on itself. so why not get the fuck out and let them have at at?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
WE invade, fuck up a country, kill tens of thousnads of its civilians. Its my guess, and going on a limb here, I"m thinking they want us the fuck out asap.
...
But... if it is U.S. troops providing security... I would imagine the ones in the Iraqi government want us to stay. And why not? Our guys are the targets. As long as they are there, they are the ones facing danger. When they leave... those in charge over there will become the targets. If we begin a slow measured withdrawal... and violence heats up again... what do we do? Like this so-called 'surge'. What will happen if the violence returns? We have no choice but to re-deploy the troops.
...
And trust me.. I WISH we could leave. But it would have to be a massive evacuation of all of our personel and resources. We could possibly relocate command and control... and set up forward air bases outside their borders.... but, where? And we would still have to figure out a way where we can draw down our combat troops... who are providing security for our support personel... and without our support personel... our combat troops cannot function. We are caught in a Catch-22.
We've screwed ourselves with this bullshit... or, our leaders have screwed our military people.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
oh i believe the troops should be pulled out of iraq. do you think they should stay indefinitely and allow the country to continue to spiral hellward cause of some 'pottery barn' motto. you break it, you fix it is bullshit. it doesnt matter when the troops leave, iraq will collapse in on itself. so why not get the fuck out and let them have at at?
...
I agree... we are basically having our troops sit on a pressure cooker. If we leave today.... there will be violence. If we leave 20 years from now.. there will be violence. We are expecting our military to find a military solution for a political problem.
But, we DID break it... so we DID buy it. It's a fuck up that we knew about from the beginning, but still insisted that we go forward with it. Hoping for the best scenario outcome is NOT a military strategy... it is a pipe dream.
I blame Jesus for telling President Bush that WAR was the solution.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
But... if it is U.S. troops providing security... I would imagine the ones in the Iraqi government want us to stay. And why not? Our guys are the targets. As long as they are there, they are the ones facing danger. When they leave... those in charge over there will become the targets. If we begin a slow measured withdrawal... and violence heats up again... what do we do? Like this so-called 'surge'. What will happen if the violence returns? We have no choice but to re-deploy the troops.
...
And trust me.. I WISH we could leave. But it would have to be a massive evacuation of all of our personel and resources. We could possibly relocate command and control... and set up forward air bases outside their borders.... but, where? And we would still have to figure out a way where we can draw down our combat troops... who are providing security for our support personel... and without our support personel... our combat troops cannot function. We are caught in a Catch-22.
We've screwed ourselves with this bullshit... or, our leaders have screwed our military people.
Seems everyone forgets the "insurgency" is actually a resistance group. guerillas. They are fighting for Iraq. When we leave they win, and fuck, that's progress. Fighting for independence, that's what the US was founded on. It may be the spark tehse people need to take back their coujtry.
...
I agree... we are basically having our troops sit on a pressure cooker. If we leave today.... there will be violence. If we leave 20 years from now.. there will be violence. We are expecting our military to find a military solution for a political problem.
But, we DID break it... so we DID buy it. It's a fuck up that we knew about from the beginning, but still insisted that we go forward with it. Hoping for the best scenario outcome is NOT a military strategy... it is a pipe dream.
I blame Jesus for telling President Bush that WAR was the solution.
the biggest mistake after invasion was sacking the iraqi army.
sorry cant agree cosmo. on one hand you say it doesnt matter when the troops leave, there'll be violence regardless. and then you say we broke it, we own it. so we stay?
so do you reckon the troops should be withdrawn or not? judging by the above post, you sound like youre having an each way bet to me?
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
...
I agree... we are basically having our troops sit on a pressure cooker. If we leave today.... there will be violence. If we leave 20 years from now.. there will be violence. We are expecting our military to find a military solution for a political problem.
But, we DID break it... so we DID buy it. It's a fuck up that we knew about from the beginning, but still insisted that we go forward with it. Hoping for the best scenario outcome is NOT a military strategy... it is a pipe dream.
I blame Jesus for telling President Bush that WAR was the solution.
So you're essentially saying that whether we leave now, or leave in 20 years the outcome is the same. In the meantime, if we stay, thousands of people will continue to die, and we'll spend billions and billions of dollars to let it happen. If the outcomes are equal, I'll choose the path that involves less risk to our troops. Bring them home tomorrow.
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
So you're essentially saying that whether we leave now, or leave in 20 years the outcome is the same. In the meantime, if we stay, thousands of people will continue to die, and we'll spend billions and billions of dollars to let it happen. If the outcomes are equal, I'll choose the path that involves less risk to our troops. Bring them home tomorrow.
...
That's my feeling, too.
But, logistically speaking... this is a great undertaking. The spin up towards the initial invasion took months... staging the troops and equipment outside of Iraq. Once the whistle blew.. the invasion was easy. Everything was in place.
Now.. getting out is another story. You have to have a rear guard to protect the mass exodus from the place. we should have though about this before we went in. The Powell Doctrine states you go in with overwhelming forces (check), with the ovewhelming support of the homefront (not check), have clearly defined military objectives (check.. sort of), have contingency plans in place (not check) and have a clearly defined and realistic exit strategy (definately, not check).
We have the game plan... the problem occurred when Bush and Rumsfeld called an audible before the snap. The plan was to have us greeted as liberators, our troops strewn with roses and kisses, have Baghdad streets and boulevards named after Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz, a ticker tape parade down Wall Street and the free flow of Iraqi oil money coming into the coffers of Haliburton. Well... at least that last part was accomplished.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I'm terrified of prison, it's definitely akin to a gun held to my head!
Being alive is not akin to being dead. I'll revise what I said and remove the "voluntary" part, but the pressures we face with taxes are not the same as the ones people in Iraq face. They're not even comparable. That's why we look foolish when we say "I don't support this war" and act like helpless victims of the big bad U.S. government.
Being alive is not akin to being dead. I'll revise what I said and remove the "voluntary" part, but the pressures we face with taxes are not the same as the ones people in Iraq face. They're not even comparable. That's why we look foolish when we say "I don't support this war" and act like helpless victims of the big bad U.S. government.
I'm sorry, I'm not going to blamed for the war because I pay my taxes. I think this is the dumbest metaphor ever, I'm sorry. I didn't say anything about my life being comparable to someone in Iraq- nobody did. you started the analogy by saying that everyone who pays taxes is basically pulling the trigger.
You fucking started the mess... you go in, destroy a country for absolutely no good reason (oil NOT being a good reason), take everything you want from it... and then just fuck off and leave THEM to clean up the mess? :mad: Your troops should be over there NOT intimidating, not fighting... but building at YOUR expense... and cleaning up... and trying to make things right. If you can't fucking do it, at least give the UN some support and let us go in and do it properly :cool:
You can't get out of it this easily.
first, irish and english troops & governments were involved also, and have pulled out already for the most part. second, we give the UN more support exponentially than any other country, and has since it's inception. I agree we messed it up and have ownership of that, but if they have a democratically elected government, then we should start to move out, but work with other countries to fill the void.
if the US stays, it's because of the money it generates for the war machine/western countries industrial military complex.
the US consolate being built will be one of the largest, and the most fortified complexes in the world when completed. so I doubt the US will be completely out of Iraq ever...
"Music, for me, was fucking heroin." eV (nothing Ed has said is more true for me personally than this quote)
You fucking started the mess... you go in, destroy a country for absolutely no good reason (oil NOT being a good reason), take everything you want from it... and then just fuck off and leave THEM to clean up the mess? :mad: Your troops should be over there NOT intimidating, not fighting... but building at YOUR expense... and cleaning up... and trying to make things right. If you can't fucking do it, at least give the UN some support and let us go in and do it properly :cool:
You can't get out of it this easily.
What the hell do you think they are doing over there? The "war" has been over for some time. The occupation is what continues and American lives are being taken every day while we try to stabilize the country so it does not descend into anarchy. We need to stay. And despite the BS the Democrats say, we have no choice but to stay,
Comments
I agree with much of what you are saying. We should have been supporting the UN this whole time and letting them take the lead on this deal. When we leave I think we need to support the UN as much as possible in the rebuilding effort.
That Said. Having our military in Iraq is not doing anyone any good including the Iraq's. I am not suggesting we shouldn't own up to our responsibilty. We created this mess and we have to be part of the solution, however I believe that solution will move along at a much greater pace once our military is removed from the equation.
first, who are you talking to when you say "you"?
I never supported Bush or the war.
Never should have happen. Hopefully, once sanity is restored in November we can do something.
If we leave, they'll figure it out. The Vietnamese figured it out and so will the iraqis.
Clearly, we didn't give a shit about the iraqis in the first place.
Why would we give a shit about them now.
first, who are you talking to when you say "you"?
I never supported Bush or the war.
Never should have happened. Hopefully, once sanity is restored in November we can do the only thing that makes sense...
The reversal of a policy that hasn't worked and is too expensive to maintain.
If we leave, they'll figure it out. The Vietnamese figured it out and so will the iraqis.
We'll send in diplomats, bring the opposing sides to the table and if things get out of hand we'll take care of things the old school way...
with a fuckload of missles.
I've seen enough American kids die over a money grab, not to mention the civilian deaths. I've seen their government take vacations during some of the worst violence. They are being trained by the US Military but choose not to defend their country from civil war. Our military could be over there handing out flowers and candy and we would STILL be intimidating the people that don't want us there.
11 million bucks every 10 minutes has to stop.
I agree on a technicality, I guess.
However it's a little like blaming the 9/11 passengers for slamming into the towers because they bought the ticket.
Our country has been hijacked and is on a course for disaster. I paid for the ride (with my taxes) but I didn't sign up for this.
Don't sell yourself short.
You didn't pay for the ride.
The conductor threw you on the ride and forced the fare out of your hand under threat of imprisonment if you didnt.
"paid for" implies voluntary fiscal responsibility.
US tax law is an abomination which forces people under duress to either fund a machine they may or may not agree with or otherwise incriminate themselves and serve hard time.
Hardly the ideals our country was founded upon.
:rolleyes:
And to the OP.
Why do some of you think leaving troops in Iraq is a good thing?
If I opened it now would you not understand?
I'm going to agree with Drifting here. This is absolutely not true, unless you are voluntarily paying taxes so the war can be prosecuted. Personally, I'm not voluntarily paying taxes. There's no way this can be twisted as either explicit or implicit support of the war.
I don't say this because I think we should feel guilty either. I was born into this machine, I didn't create it. But I am a part of it nonetheless. And for us to sit here and say "we don't support this war" would be wrong, and it makes Americans look like jerks when we do. Most non-Americans reading this thread would agree with that I'd imagine.
Let me get this straight. You pay taxes because you want to? Really?
Do you really not understand the force of the government? There are actually examples of the IRS using weapons. Federal Marshall come in and seize property. If you don't pay your taxes first they'll start with fines and penalties. Then comes liens and garnished wages. Then comes criminal and civil action. Then comes either incarceration if that's what you want, or guns if you don't submit.
I am definitely paying taxes because I am forced to. There is nothing voluntary about it.
US taxpayers pay billion to Multinationals (mostly US based, friend of Bush administration) to 'rebuild' Iraq. Multinational hire Iraqi subcontractors (who risk their life just 'working for the yanks') for a fraction of the price, not enough to do a proper, lasting job of it and pocket the rest.
Iraqis are well educated and skilled as a whole.
Iraq has all the resources and skills to have a prosper economy. What they need is security! Hitler did not go in pretending to come rescue us, nor him coming sparkled a civil war in a country that was an artificial construct to start with.
and by the way..the German troops never set foot in England..
Iraqis want you out EVENTUALLY..but the accounts I heard, as unwelcome as you/we are now, for the ordinary people, it would be worse without..the US/UK troups are currently keeping a lid on teh boiling pan.
now what we need to work out is how to turn of the heat..not remove the lid and let everything boils out!
speak for yourself! of course we forced to pay taxes. I don't even know how you would go about NOT paying taxes, they are taken out of your paycheck automatically (honestly can anyone explain that? I've never got that). I'm terrified of prison, it's definitely akin to a gun held to my head! plus taxes are used for more than the war. If you didn't pay taxes, there would be no provision of public goods.
and I just saw your line that "people are dying because we pay our taxes." you cannot possibly make that direct connection. as I said we have to pay taxes for lots of other things, and we have no control over where the money goes.
You (and Colin Powell) are right. We broke it, we bought it. This is America's mess to clean up and we SHOULD feel responsible and accountable for its clean up.
The way to do so is NOT to reduce the number of soldiers to provide security... but, to INCREASE the number of 'Quality' boots on the ground. Nothing gets done without the security in place. No rebuilding, no commerce, no government.
Right now, the security is a bit better because the U.S. has quit Staying The Bad Course we had originally set. The increase of U.S. troops has lead to more security. The problem is... a surge doesn't work.. an escalation does. We have to maintain the greater number of troops to provide security.
How can we get to a reduction of U.S. troops? By getting the Iraqi Army back in place. That is not easy. The Iraqis hold more alligence to their tribal backgrounds, than to their alligence to their country and their government. We knew this before we went in, but went in anyway.. hoping that our dreams would come true.
Command and Control is currently done by the U.S. military. Logistical support, supply lines, medical and air support are all done by the U.S. We can say we have trainned 300,000 Iraqis (according to the 2003 Rumsfeld/Bush reports), but what about their command? Who do we put into those positions? Sadam Hussein's former officers? We dismantled their command and control and it takes years to train officers and leaders. And when their Command Chain is in place.. do we place our troops under their command? NO.
And what about the supply lines? It is U.S. Air Force C-17s and their crews that are providing the links to keep the forces going. Does anyone think we will leave them behind? hat about the AH-64 Apaches and UH-60 Blackhawk that provide air cover? The F-16s and F-15s that can strike at insurgent positions? How about the Med Evac helicopters? How can anyone expect Iraq to be a stable nation without those resources?
Then, there's the medical support the U.S. provides. The reason why we are seeing lower number of U.S. soldier deaths in Iraq than in Viet Nam is due to the advancements made with Med Evac and forward operating surgical hospitals. C-17s can and are being configured as airborne trauma center transports. The worst cases can be flown to Germany in airborne hospitals. Soldiers who bled to death in the jungles of Viet Nam would have had a better chance of survival if we had these tools in 1969.
So, a 'Cut and Run' scenario that the psycho Right Wing pundits are always crying about is not going to happen. We cannot cut the number of combat troops without cutting back the number of support personel and equipment. We are there for the long run... that is our fate because this war was of our choosing.
Hail, Hail!!!
oh i believe the troops should be pulled out of iraq. do you think they should stay indefinitely and allow the country to continue to spiral hellward cause of some 'pottery barn' motto. you break it, you fix it is bullshit. it doesnt matter when the troops leave, iraq will collapse in on itself. so why not get the fuck out and let them have at at?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Powell Says Troops Would Leave Iraq if New Leaders Asked - May 2004
Iraq ready for US troop withdrawal - Sept 2005
What happened?
Remember when this guy asked us to leave?
I think he even asked twice.
Hmm.
If I opened it now would you not understand?
But... if it is U.S. troops providing security... I would imagine the ones in the Iraqi government want us to stay. And why not? Our guys are the targets. As long as they are there, they are the ones facing danger. When they leave... those in charge over there will become the targets. If we begin a slow measured withdrawal... and violence heats up again... what do we do? Like this so-called 'surge'. What will happen if the violence returns? We have no choice but to re-deploy the troops.
...
And trust me.. I WISH we could leave. But it would have to be a massive evacuation of all of our personel and resources. We could possibly relocate command and control... and set up forward air bases outside their borders.... but, where? And we would still have to figure out a way where we can draw down our combat troops... who are providing security for our support personel... and without our support personel... our combat troops cannot function. We are caught in a Catch-22.
We've screwed ourselves with this bullshit... or, our leaders have screwed our military people.
Hail, Hail!!!
I agree... we are basically having our troops sit on a pressure cooker. If we leave today.... there will be violence. If we leave 20 years from now.. there will be violence. We are expecting our military to find a military solution for a political problem.
But, we DID break it... so we DID buy it. It's a fuck up that we knew about from the beginning, but still insisted that we go forward with it. Hoping for the best scenario outcome is NOT a military strategy... it is a pipe dream.
I blame Jesus for telling President Bush that WAR was the solution.
Hail, Hail!!!
the biggest mistake after invasion was sacking the iraqi army.
sorry cant agree cosmo. on one hand you say it doesnt matter when the troops leave, there'll be violence regardless. and then you say we broke it, we own it. so we stay?
so do you reckon the troops should be withdrawn or not? judging by the above post, you sound like youre having an each way bet to me?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
So you're essentially saying that whether we leave now, or leave in 20 years the outcome is the same. In the meantime, if we stay, thousands of people will continue to die, and we'll spend billions and billions of dollars to let it happen. If the outcomes are equal, I'll choose the path that involves less risk to our troops. Bring them home tomorrow.
That's my feeling, too.
But, logistically speaking... this is a great undertaking. The spin up towards the initial invasion took months... staging the troops and equipment outside of Iraq. Once the whistle blew.. the invasion was easy. Everything was in place.
Now.. getting out is another story. You have to have a rear guard to protect the mass exodus from the place. we should have though about this before we went in. The Powell Doctrine states you go in with overwhelming forces (check), with the ovewhelming support of the homefront (not check), have clearly defined military objectives (check.. sort of), have contingency plans in place (not check) and have a clearly defined and realistic exit strategy (definately, not check).
We have the game plan... the problem occurred when Bush and Rumsfeld called an audible before the snap. The plan was to have us greeted as liberators, our troops strewn with roses and kisses, have Baghdad streets and boulevards named after Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz, a ticker tape parade down Wall Street and the free flow of Iraqi oil money coming into the coffers of Haliburton. Well... at least that last part was accomplished.
Hail, Hail!!!
I'm sorry, I'm not going to blamed for the war because I pay my taxes. I think this is the dumbest metaphor ever, I'm sorry. I didn't say anything about my life being comparable to someone in Iraq- nobody did. you started the analogy by saying that everyone who pays taxes is basically pulling the trigger.
Funny, we never EVER blamed the iraqis for the evils of Saddam.
yet I'm GWB's buddy!?
I'm a bad person, who knew?
first, irish and english troops & governments were involved also, and have pulled out already for the most part. second, we give the UN more support exponentially than any other country, and has since it's inception. I agree we messed it up and have ownership of that, but if they have a democratically elected government, then we should start to move out, but work with other countries to fill the void.
if the US stays, it's because of the money it generates for the war machine/western countries industrial military complex.
the US consolate being built will be one of the largest, and the most fortified complexes in the world when completed. so I doubt the US will be completely out of Iraq ever...
Stop by:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=14678777351&ref=mf
What the hell do you think they are doing over there? The "war" has been over for some time. The occupation is what continues and American lives are being taken every day while we try to stabilize the country so it does not descend into anarchy. We need to stay. And despite the BS the Democrats say, we have no choice but to stay,