You fucking started the mess... you go in, destroy a country for absolutely no good reason (oil NOT being a good reason), take everything you want from it... and then just fuck off and leave THEM to clean up the mess? :mad: Your troops should be over there NOT intimidating, not fighting... but building at YOUR expense... and cleaning up... and trying to make things right. If you can't fucking do it, at least give the UN some support and let us go in and do it properly :cool:
You can't get out of it this easily.
What the hell do you think they are doing over there? The "war" has been over for some time. The occupation is what continues and American lives are being taken every day while we try to stabilize the country so it does not descend into anarchy. We need to stay. And despite the BS the Democrats say, we have no choice but to stay,
I agree with you on this... troops CAN go in as peace keepers/peace enforcers... what exactly are they doing there at the moment that's so important? Just both sides shooting at eachother? what's the point of that? While they're there... they should be helping to rebuild the infrastructure the way the UN/Nato/EU troops do when they go in. Help build up communities and relationships with the locals... prove you're there to help rather than just blow stuff up. The US made sure they've got every available person in the military... why not use them for a good cause for once?
Seriously. The UN? Give me a fucking break. They did such a wonderful job in Srebernica why not send them back to sit on their weapons and watch another massacre. Thats what they do best.
WE invade, fuck up a country, kill tens of thousnads of its civilians. Its my guess, and going on a limb here, I"m thinking they want us the fuck out asap.
Would they be Al Qaeda? Iran? THEY definitely want us out. Many Sunnis are already turning on Al Qaeda in Iraq and those people do want us to stay. While I dont agree with Helen's view that WE are all responsible for this mess. Half of this country voted for Gore in 2000. Then there were the fools who voted for Nader and actually got Bush elected. Maybe you ought to be mad at them.
What the hell do you think they are doing over there? The "war" has been over for some time. The occupation is what continues and American lives are being taken every day while we try to stabilize the country so it does not descend into anarchy. We need to stay. And despite the BS the Democrats say, we have no choice but to stay,
well thats just bullshit, there is always a choice. tis just the wrong ones are being made. no matter when foreign troops leave, iraq will descend into 'anarchy' as competing interests jockey to fill the void created when the 'security' leaves. iraq will never be stabilised by foreign troops cause there is and always will be opposition to the occupation. you can delude yourself into thinking eventually there will be a modicum of peace whilst the troops remain, but by what right does the coalition of willing justify their presence? deposing saddam was a good thing. continued occupation is not.
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One of the worst decisions we have made as a country was to go into Iraq. This is not surprising given who the "decider" was in the decision to go in. The term "quagmire" was always attached to Iraq for good reason. Saddam was a terrible, evil man--but, he served us a good purpose when he was in place--he was a lynch pin keeping the area relatively stable. When we leave, which we should at some point, though I'm not sure which point...all we can do is hope to leave enough dogs on side alive to match the dogs alive on the other...in other words...we're going to have to hope that whoever is left is so busy going after one another, that things don't entirely collapse and some other opportunistic third party comes in and tries to grab a handful for themselves. If that happens, the mother of all messes will break loose for us. Our final accomplishment in this whole mess will have been to establish a significant military presence within the entire region, which we will need should the mother of all messes come knocking. But, this is a huge cost to us...this just in case presence...which we didn't need to incur. This mother of a mess would have been happy to bide her time--perhaps even dropping dead of her own recognisance, and we could have productively spent the billions we've spent on this otherwise. Or perhaps not spent it and have a more decent economy going for ourselves and our descendants.
well thats just bullshit, there is always a choice. tis just the wrong ones are being made. no matter when foreign troops leave, iraq will descend into 'anarchy' as competing interests jockey to fill the void created when the 'security' leaves. iraq will never be stabilised by foreign troops cause there is and always will be opposition to the occupation. you can delude yourself into thinking eventually there will be a modicum of peace whilst the troops remain, but by what right does the coalition of willing justify their presence? deposing saddam was a good thing. continued occupation is not.
Sadaam or not were stayin. I dont care what anyone says. Any draw down would be symbolic. Once Barak wins and he gets educated about whats at stake for the world economy no one will be going anywhere.
Would they be Al Qaeda? Iran? THEY definitely want us out. Many Sunnis are already turning on Al Qaeda in Iraq and those people do want us to stay. While I dont agree with Helen's view that WE are all responsible for this mess. Half of this country voted for Gore in 2000. Then there were the fools who voted for Nader and actually got Bush elected. Maybe you ought to be mad at them.
Gore would have us in IRaq too.
THey refers to the people of Iraq, the millions that have been affected by Washington's wars and sanctions/.
We do voluntarily pay taxes, no one holds a gun to our heads. It's not like if we don't, we'll be blown to little bits as many civilians and soldiers are in Iraq all the time. Going to prison and dying aren't even comparable. We support the war because if we don't, our lives become disrupted and inconvenient. But because we support it, other people die. That's something all of us should recognize.
I don't say this because I think we should feel guilty either. I was born into this machine, I didn't create it. But I am a part of it nonetheless. And for us to sit here and say "we don't support this war" would be wrong, and it makes Americans look like jerks when we do. Most non-Americans reading this thread would agree with that I'd imagine.
No, I agree to a SMALL extent... when I said earlier that the US should fund the rebuilding and the rest of us shouldn't have to pay a penny, I took it back since our government did nothing to stop the war and supported the US as much as they could and even beyond that (being that we're a 'neutral' country :rolleyes: ). But most people realise that a huge chunk of Americans were against the war from the beginning.
We're all responsible I guess... the fact that we let these fuckers run OUR world how they want... well aren't we all a little bit fucking stupid?
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first, irish and english troops & governments were involved also, and have pulled out already for the most part. second, we give the UN more support exponentially than any other country, and has since it's inception. I agree we messed it up and have ownership of that, but if they have a democratically elected government, then we should start to move out, but work with other countries to fill the void.
if the US stays, it's because of the money it generates for the war machine/western countries industrial military complex.
the US consolate being built will be one of the largest, and the most fortified complexes in the world when completed. so I doubt the US will be completely out of Iraq ever...
First, Irish troops were NOT involved... there are some Irish guys in the British army or in the US army but the IRISH army didn't go in... there are guys in Afghanistan now but that's a whole different country, right? Our government betrayed our neutrality though by helping the US... I never denied that.
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
What the hell do you think they are doing over there? The "war" has been over for some time. The occupation is what continues and American lives are being taken every day while we try to stabilize the country so it does not descend into anarchy. We need to stay. And despite the BS the Democrats say, we have no choice but to stay,
so you're agreeing with me then?
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Seriously. The UN? Give me a fucking break. They did such a wonderful job in Srebernica why not send them back to sit on their weapons and watch another massacre. Thats what they do best.
what is it with you americans? Instead of trying to make the UN work... a body which, if controlled PROPERLY (i.e. if the US wouldn't just use it for their own benefits) would have stopped this war in the first place. Why so quick to want to get rid of it rather than help it become what it's supposed to be?
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Sadaam or not were stayin. I dont care what anyone says. Any draw down would be symbolic. Once Barak wins and he gets educated about whats at stake for the world economy no one will be going anywhere.
well of course you are. that's what the US does. goes where theyre not welcome for no reason whatsoever(or a bullshit one, take your pick), stays until the situation is so lost they hightail it out of there in disgrace, and tis deemed necessary by hollywood to spend the next 30 years trying to justify that presence.
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oh i believe the troops should be pulled out of iraq. do you think they should stay indefinitely and allow the country to continue to spiral hellward cause of some 'pottery barn' motto. you break it, you fix it is bullshit. it doesnt matter when the troops leave, iraq will collapse in on itself. so why not get the fuck out and let them have at at?
LOL, what kind of a person are you? You want our troops out so people can kill each other? Please explain.
Does anybody here understand the progress that is being made in Iraq? They have a democratically elected parliament and president. They are holding elections. The economy is growing. They are signing trade agreements with their neighbors - even IRAN!!! And honestly I don't care if they have close ties with Iran or not.
The point is that a fucking country is emerging over there. A free press! Elections! Sunni and Shite reconciliation is not going to come overnight or over a decade people. It is going to take GENERATIONAL TURNOVER for that to fully take place.
40 to 50 years ago Barak Obama could be lynched in the American South just for being black exactly like a Sunni could get lynched in Baghdad for not being a Shite. He couldn't eat with whites or even go to school with whites. Now he stands a great chance to be the next president of the United States. So don't tell me that people can't change. That societies don't change. They do... but they need people to help. They need people to lead and show the way.
I don't understand why people would want the U.S. to leave and let Iraq decend into an all out civil war. And I'm talking a hell of a civil war with two factiosn armed to the teeth. The outcome would be a Shite strongman would emerge and rule with an iron fist. A Sunni genocide would take place, with Kurdistan being next on the list. The entire region would digress 50 years. Another two maybe three generations would be lost to a life of war. They would just perpetuate the tensions of their ancestors. Jesus, isn't this a simple equation?
Who wants that? We are spending a lot of money, but we stand to profit in the long run. We are not losing an unsustainable number of troops.
War sucks, but right now a incurection is better than an all out genocide.
Your forgetting the reality of the situation I think. The United States invaded Iraq, twice, put them under sanctions for 12 years or so, and killed literally hundreds of thousands of them. But we let them vote (on candidates hand picked by the US) so its all ok now? I don't think so.
We take the right...do what we say...we know better even if we have to invade your land and kill you (and your children) for it. Obey us or die.
people somehow try to justify that shit?
nice...
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Does anybody here understand the progress that is being made in Iraq? They have a democratically elected parliament and president. They are holding elections. The economy is growing. They are signing trade agreements with their neighbors - even IRAN!!! And honestly I don't care if they have close ties with Iran or not.
The point is that a fucking country is emerging over there. A free press! Elections! Sunni and Shite reconciliation is not going to come overnight or over a decade people. It is going to take GENERATIONAL TURNOVER for that to fully take place.
40 to 50 years ago Barak Obama could be lynched in the American South just for being black exactly like a Sunni could get lynched in Baghdad for not being a Shite. He couldn't eat with whites or even go to school with whites. Now he stands a great chance to be the next president of the United States. So don't tell me that people can't change. That societies don't change. They do... but they need people to help. They need people to lead and show the way.
I don't understand why people would want the U.S. to leave and let Iraq decend into an all out civil war. And I'm talking a hell of a civil war with two factiosn armed to the teeth. The outcome would be a Shite strongman would emerge and rule with an iron fist. A Sunni genocide would take place, with Kurdistan being next on the list. The entire region would digress 50 years. Another two maybe three generations would be lost to a life of war. They would just perpetuate the tensions of their ancestors. Jesus, isn't this a simple equation?
Who wants that? We are spending a lot of money, but we stand to profit in the long run. We are not losing an unsustainable number of troops.
War sucks, but right now a incurection is better than an all out genocide.
...
If things are as rosey as you say they are... why aren't we at least, drawing down the number of U.S. troops over there.
...
And personally, I take offense to this statement (and nothing offends me):
"We are not losing an unsustainable number of troops."
You are willing to sacrifice these people for your comfort? at what number does your 'acceptable' losses in our troops, become unacceptable to you?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Agreed yes but for different reasons. Not coming at this from the perspective of an angry European but agreed there is a responsibility to stay and make it right. I think you would find that alot of U.S soldiers feel the same way. The problem is that staying means, necessarily, a vote for the Republicans. Is that what you want? Because if you listen to the Democrats they will turn tail and run within 60 days.
That being said, this is what I find so totally disingenuous about Barak Obama in particular. Regardless of what you say you would have done if in office the reality is alot of us bought into George W's bullshit. For christ sake, Collin Powell went to the U.N. with this rubbish. Seen him lately? The majority of "us" on this board probably never voted for George W in either 2000 or 2004 so you need to be careful about labelling this whole thing about "us".
The issue is WTF do we do now?? Plain and simple. Leaving will not happen and personally I am just as offended being lied to by Democrats as I am Republicans.
As previously pointed out if all US troops left tomorrow you would have at least three new wars break out instantly. The Turks and the Kurds in the North, a Sunni and Shiite Civil War, and a possible West - Iran showdown in the Gulf, all of which may happen anyways .
So there it is, as I said before it's a big shit sandwich and were all gonna have to take a bite.....
what is it with you americans? Instead of trying to make the UN work... a body which, if controlled PROPERLY (i.e. if the US wouldn't just use it for their own benefits) would have stopped this war in the first place. Why so quick to want to get rid of it rather than help it become what it's supposed to be?
This is worse than Bollocks. It's a dog's Bollock's! First what's with all this "you americans" crap anyways. Last time I checked there were like 270 million of us and we all have opinions that we are entitled to express. We are not one large mindless space alien intent on world domination. Ok sometimes we are. And were really sorry about that. Many of us are just transplanted Europeans so were genetically pre-disposed towards oppressing people. Cmon now. Ireland is such a pretty happy place with the best beer in the world. What did we ever do to you other than take in all your fucking starving potato famine refugees?
That said I do have issue with your view of the UN. The UN is used and abused by everyone and it is nothing more than a US funded debating society with no real power. If you can cite one instance in which the UN actually kept the peace, it's original fucking purpose, let me know. Last time I checked it was in Korea and that still cost 30,000 US lives. Other than that it's a waste of perfectly good Manhattan real estate.
what is it with you americans? Instead of trying to make the UN work... a body which, if controlled PROPERLY (i.e. if the US wouldn't just use it for their own benefits) would have stopped this war in the first place. Why so quick to want to get rid of it rather than help it become what it's supposed to be?
This is worse than Bollocks. It's a dog's Bollock's! First what's with all this "you americans" crap anyways. Last time I checked there were like 270 million of us and we all have opinions that we are entitled to express. We are not one large mindless space alien intent on world domination. Ok sometimes we are. And were really sorry about that. Many of us are just transplanted Europeans so were genetically pre-disposed towards oppressing people. Cmon now. Ireland is such a pretty happy place with the best beer in the world. What did we ever do to you other than take in all your fucking starving potato famine refugees?
That said I do have issue with your view of the UN. The UN is used and abused by everyone and it is nothing more than a US funded debating society with no real power. If you can cite one instance in which the UN actually kept the peace, it's original fucking purpose, let me know. Last time I checked it was in Korea and that still cost 30,000 US lives. Other than that it's a waste of perfectly good Manhattan real estate.
This is worse than Bollocks. It's a dog's Bollock's! First what's with all this "you americans" crap anyways. Last time I checked there were like 270 million of us and we all have opinions that we are entitled to express. We are not one large mindless space alien intent on world domination. Ok sometimes we are. And were really sorry about that. Many of us are just transplanted Europeans so were genetically pre-disposed towards oppressing people. Cmon now. Ireland is such a pretty happy place with the best beer in the world. What did we ever do to you other than take in all your fucking starving potato famine refugees?
That said I do have issue with your view of the UN. The UN is used and abused by everyone and it is nothing more than a US funded debating society with no real power. If you can cite one instance in which the UN actually kept the peace, it's original fucking purpose, let me know. Last time I checked it was in Korea and that still cost 30,000 US lives. Other than that it's a waste of perfectly good Manhattan real estate.
funded the IRA for decades? yeah, terrorists are only bad if they kill Americans :rolleyes:
the UN has lots of problems, but it's still a better solution that unilateral action because that suits you.
Should work at strengthening it rather than undermining it.
funded the IRA for decades? yeah, terrorists are only bad if they kill Americans :rolleyes:
the UN has lots of problems, but it's still a better solution that unilateral action because that suits you.
Should work at strengthening it rather than undermining it.
Really? Unilateral was it London? Weren't you the guys that served up the Yellow Cake intelligence?
Cmon. No one saw Full Metal Jacket? It's a joke son...laugh
...
It's funny to us. We as comfortable on our homes, a half a world away from the crap. We are not making one sacrifice. We are not facing any dangers... we are not feeling any hardships or pain, financially or physically. Boost our taxes to about 50% of our gross income to pay the almost one trillion dollars this war cost.. then, yeah... we're dealt a hand in this game. In this war... the only ones we are forcing to take a bite of that shit sandwich are our soldiers and their families.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
...
It's funny to us. We as comfortable on our homes, a half a world away from the crap. We are not making one sacrifice. We are not facing any dangers... we are not feeling any hardships or pain, financially or physically. Boost our taxes to about 50% of our gross income to pay the almost one trillion dollars this war cost.. then, yeah... we're dealt a hand in this game. In this war... the only ones we are forcing to take a bite of that shit sandwich are our soldiers and their families.
I don't know about the "only ones" paying for it, but they are surely paying harder then we are. However, been to the gas station lately? You ain't seen nothing yet. How bout your tax bill? You ain't seen nothing yet? You and I and the rest of the world are paying for this shit too. Don't kid yourself.
...
It's funny to us. We as comfortable on our homes, a half a world away from the crap. We are not making one sacrifice. We are not facing any dangers... we are not feeling any hardships or pain, financially or physically. Boost our taxes to about 50% of our gross income to pay the almost one trillion dollars this war cost.. then, yeah... we're dealt a hand in this game. In this war... the only ones we are forcing to take a bite of that shit sandwich are our soldiers and their families.
I don't know about the "only ones" paying for it, but they are surely paying harder then we are. However, been to the gas station lately? You ain't seen nothing yet. How bout your tax bill? You ain't seen nothing yet? You and I and the rest of the world are paying for this shit too. Don't kid yourself.
I don't know about the "only ones" paying for it, but they are surely paying harder then we are. However, been to the gas station lately? You ain't seen nothing yet. How bout your tax bill? You ain't seen nothing yet? You and I and the rest of the world are paying for this shit too. Don't kid yourself.
...
Then... if we ARE paying for it... is it worth it?
Let's say a democratic and soverign Iraq emerges from this... does anyone believe that it will spread to theocratic loony bins such as Iran? Or oppressive monarchies such as Saudi Arabia or Kuwait? And will those changes come peacefully... or will the status quo governments be willing to spill blood in order to maintain power?
A more realistic outcome would be a Shi'ite Majority running Iraq and alligning itself with Iran, the only other Shi'ia Majority in the region. Shi'tes dominate Iran and Iraq, but are a minority in the Sunni dominated Middle East. It is more likely that they will be like minded, than remain divided.
...
As of right now... it is the soldiers and their families that are carrying the load in Iraq... not you or me. The cost of this war is not our burden to pay.... like cowards, we are passing on the bill to our children and their children to pay. We are NOT taking any personal responsibility for a war that was commenced on our watch.
...
I would love to evacuate our guys from Iraq... but, it is a logistically tough problem to solve. There are so many variables that could result in worse conditions. We have driven this thing into the ditch and our idiot driver kept us on the same course, driving us deeper and deeper into the swamp.
So, yeah... you and I agree... we HAVE to stay. My view is that we are trapped there and doing for the 'good of the Iraqi people' is just another bullshit excuse made behind closed White House doors to justify our poor decision making.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
This is worse than Bollocks. It's a dog's Bollock's! First what's with all this "you americans" crap anyways. Last time I checked there were like 270 million of us and we all have opinions that we are entitled to express. We are not one large mindless space alien intent on world domination. Ok sometimes we are. And were really sorry about that. Many of us are just transplanted Europeans so were genetically pre-disposed towards oppressing people. Cmon now. Ireland is such a pretty happy place with the best beer in the world. What did we ever do to you other than take in all your fucking starving potato famine refugees?
That said I do have issue with your view of the UN. The UN is used and abused by everyone and it is nothing more than a US funded debating society with no real power. If you can cite one instance in which the UN actually kept the peace, it's original fucking purpose, let me know. Last time I checked it was in Korea and that still cost 30,000 US lives. Other than that it's a waste of perfectly good Manhattan real estate.
take in? Take in? Huh? Who took us in? As far as I'm aware, there were no fucking visa requirements back then... the country was a free for all, wasn't it? Besides we were hardly welcomed with open arms.. what were the signs? No Irish, no blacks, no dogs or something like that.
And what did you do to us? You never picked on us individually... but I don't think many people can possibly deny that this American 'my dick is bigger than yours' mentality is destroying the world. The world that I and all Irish people (not to mention the billions of others) happen to live in :rolleyes: . Do you have to invade Ireland for me to have a RIGHT to be upset?
The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Comments
What the hell do you think they are doing over there? The "war" has been over for some time. The occupation is what continues and American lives are being taken every day while we try to stabilize the country so it does not descend into anarchy. We need to stay. And despite the BS the Democrats say, we have no choice but to stay,
well thats just bullshit, there is always a choice. tis just the wrong ones are being made. no matter when foreign troops leave, iraq will descend into 'anarchy' as competing interests jockey to fill the void created when the 'security' leaves. iraq will never be stabilised by foreign troops cause there is and always will be opposition to the occupation. you can delude yourself into thinking eventually there will be a modicum of peace whilst the troops remain, but by what right does the coalition of willing justify their presence? deposing saddam was a good thing. continued occupation is not.
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PEARL JAM~San Antonio, TX. 4~5~03
INCUBUS~Houston, TX. 1~19~07
INCUBUS~Denver, CO. 2~8~07
Lollapalooza~Chicago, IL. 8~5~07
INCUBUS~Austin, TX. 9~3~07
Bonnaroo~Manchester, TN 6~14~08
THey refers to the people of Iraq, the millions that have been affected by Washington's wars and sanctions/.
We're all responsible I guess... the fact that we let these fuckers run OUR world how they want... well aren't we all a little bit fucking stupid?
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you
well of course you are. that's what the US does. goes where theyre not welcome for no reason whatsoever(or a bullshit one, take your pick), stays until the situation is so lost they hightail it out of there in disgrace, and tis deemed necessary by hollywood to spend the next 30 years trying to justify that presence.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
LOL, what kind of a person are you? You want our troops out so people can kill each other? Please explain.
The point is that a fucking country is emerging over there. A free press! Elections! Sunni and Shite reconciliation is not going to come overnight or over a decade people. It is going to take GENERATIONAL TURNOVER for that to fully take place.
40 to 50 years ago Barak Obama could be lynched in the American South just for being black exactly like a Sunni could get lynched in Baghdad for not being a Shite. He couldn't eat with whites or even go to school with whites. Now he stands a great chance to be the next president of the United States. So don't tell me that people can't change. That societies don't change. They do... but they need people to help. They need people to lead and show the way.
I don't understand why people would want the U.S. to leave and let Iraq decend into an all out civil war. And I'm talking a hell of a civil war with two factiosn armed to the teeth. The outcome would be a Shite strongman would emerge and rule with an iron fist. A Sunni genocide would take place, with Kurdistan being next on the list. The entire region would digress 50 years. Another two maybe three generations would be lost to a life of war. They would just perpetuate the tensions of their ancestors. Jesus, isn't this a simple equation?
Who wants that? We are spending a lot of money, but we stand to profit in the long run. We are not losing an unsustainable number of troops.
War sucks, but right now a incurection is better than an all out genocide.
people somehow try to justify that shit?
nice...
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
If things are as rosey as you say they are... why aren't we at least, drawing down the number of U.S. troops over there.
...
And personally, I take offense to this statement (and nothing offends me):
"We are not losing an unsustainable number of troops."
You are willing to sacrifice these people for your comfort? at what number does your 'acceptable' losses in our troops, become unacceptable to you?
Hail, Hail!!!
Agreed yes but for different reasons. Not coming at this from the perspective of an angry European but agreed there is a responsibility to stay and make it right. I think you would find that alot of U.S soldiers feel the same way. The problem is that staying means, necessarily, a vote for the Republicans. Is that what you want? Because if you listen to the Democrats they will turn tail and run within 60 days.
That being said, this is what I find so totally disingenuous about Barak Obama in particular. Regardless of what you say you would have done if in office the reality is alot of us bought into George W's bullshit. For christ sake, Collin Powell went to the U.N. with this rubbish. Seen him lately? The majority of "us" on this board probably never voted for George W in either 2000 or 2004 so you need to be careful about labelling this whole thing about "us".
The issue is WTF do we do now?? Plain and simple. Leaving will not happen and personally I am just as offended being lied to by Democrats as I am Republicans.
As previously pointed out if all US troops left tomorrow you would have at least three new wars break out instantly. The Turks and the Kurds in the North, a Sunni and Shiite Civil War, and a possible West - Iran showdown in the Gulf, all of which may happen anyways .
So there it is, as I said before it's a big shit sandwich and were all gonna have to take a bite.....
This is worse than Bollocks. It's a dog's Bollock's! First what's with all this "you americans" crap anyways. Last time I checked there were like 270 million of us and we all have opinions that we are entitled to express. We are not one large mindless space alien intent on world domination. Ok sometimes we are. And were really sorry about that. Many of us are just transplanted Europeans so were genetically pre-disposed towards oppressing people. Cmon now. Ireland is such a pretty happy place with the best beer in the world. What did we ever do to you other than take in all your fucking starving potato famine refugees?
That said I do have issue with your view of the UN. The UN is used and abused by everyone and it is nothing more than a US funded debating society with no real power. If you can cite one instance in which the UN actually kept the peace, it's original fucking purpose, let me know. Last time I checked it was in Korea and that still cost 30,000 US lives. Other than that it's a waste of perfectly good Manhattan real estate.
This is worse than Bollocks. It's a dog's Bollock's! First what's with all this "you americans" crap anyways. Last time I checked there were like 270 million of us and we all have opinions that we are entitled to express. We are not one large mindless space alien intent on world domination. Ok sometimes we are. And were really sorry about that. Many of us are just transplanted Europeans so were genetically pre-disposed towards oppressing people. Cmon now. Ireland is such a pretty happy place with the best beer in the world. What did we ever do to you other than take in all your fucking starving potato famine refugees?
That said I do have issue with your view of the UN. The UN is used and abused by everyone and it is nothing more than a US funded debating society with no real power. If you can cite one instance in which the UN actually kept the peace, it's original fucking purpose, let me know. Last time I checked it was in Korea and that still cost 30,000 US lives. Other than that it's a waste of perfectly good Manhattan real estate.
the UN has lots of problems, but it's still a better solution that unilateral action because that suits you.
Should work at strengthening it rather than undermining it.
That's okay... you can have my share. I didn't order it.
Hail, Hail!!!
Really? Unilateral was it London? Weren't you the guys that served up the Yellow Cake intelligence?
Cmon. No one saw Full Metal Jacket? It's a joke son...laugh
It's funny to us. We as comfortable on our homes, a half a world away from the crap. We are not making one sacrifice. We are not facing any dangers... we are not feeling any hardships or pain, financially or physically. Boost our taxes to about 50% of our gross income to pay the almost one trillion dollars this war cost.. then, yeah... we're dealt a hand in this game. In this war... the only ones we are forcing to take a bite of that shit sandwich are our soldiers and their families.
Hail, Hail!!!
I don't know about the "only ones" paying for it, but they are surely paying harder then we are. However, been to the gas station lately? You ain't seen nothing yet. How bout your tax bill? You ain't seen nothing yet? You and I and the rest of the world are paying for this shit too. Don't kid yourself.
I don't know about the "only ones" paying for it, but they are surely paying harder then we are. However, been to the gas station lately? You ain't seen nothing yet. How bout your tax bill? You ain't seen nothing yet? You and I and the rest of the world are paying for this shit too. Don't kid yourself.
Then... if we ARE paying for it... is it worth it?
Let's say a democratic and soverign Iraq emerges from this... does anyone believe that it will spread to theocratic loony bins such as Iran? Or oppressive monarchies such as Saudi Arabia or Kuwait? And will those changes come peacefully... or will the status quo governments be willing to spill blood in order to maintain power?
A more realistic outcome would be a Shi'ite Majority running Iraq and alligning itself with Iran, the only other Shi'ia Majority in the region. Shi'tes dominate Iran and Iraq, but are a minority in the Sunni dominated Middle East. It is more likely that they will be like minded, than remain divided.
...
As of right now... it is the soldiers and their families that are carrying the load in Iraq... not you or me. The cost of this war is not our burden to pay.... like cowards, we are passing on the bill to our children and their children to pay. We are NOT taking any personal responsibility for a war that was commenced on our watch.
...
I would love to evacuate our guys from Iraq... but, it is a logistically tough problem to solve. There are so many variables that could result in worse conditions. We have driven this thing into the ditch and our idiot driver kept us on the same course, driving us deeper and deeper into the swamp.
So, yeah... you and I agree... we HAVE to stay. My view is that we are trapped there and doing for the 'good of the Iraqi people' is just another bullshit excuse made behind closed White House doors to justify our poor decision making.
Hail, Hail!!!
And what did you do to us? You never picked on us individually... but I don't think many people can possibly deny that this American 'my dick is bigger than yours' mentality is destroying the world. The world that I and all Irish people (not to mention the billions of others) happen to live in :rolleyes: . Do you have to invade Ireland for me to have a RIGHT to be upset?
Verona??? it's all surmountable
Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
Wembley? We all believe!
Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
Chicago 07? And love
What a different life
Had I not found this love with you