Saudi Kidnap Rape victim faces 90 lashes

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  • MrBrian
    MrBrian Posts: 2,672
    farfromglorified wrote:


    Meh. The leadership was once the people, abook.

    In the muslim world? for the past long time I don't think it represented it's people. The american backed Shah for example, can he also be considered from the people? Saddam?

    I agree with books, it is for the most part leadership.
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    MrBrian wrote:
    In the muslim world? for the past long time I don't think it represented it's people. The american backed Shah for example, can he also be considered from the people? Saddam?

    In both cases, of course. Both the Shah and Saddam were very much a part of "the people". Neither was exempt from the dominant culture. Saddam in particular.
    I agree with books, it is for the most part leadership.

    That's an easy out that, honestly, becomes laughable when the leaders change but the people don't.
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Meh. The leadership was once the people, abook.

    Does our leadership here represent your views, ffg?
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    dg1979us wrote:
    No I realize that. But I certainly think there is a level of brainwashing, especially with regards to Wahabbism in Saudi Arabia. I think what we have is more or less a religion with very faithful followers, living in countries with very corrupt governments. You throw in Western greed and you have some serious issues. However, I mentioned Theo Van Gogh earlier, who was murdered in Holland, one of the most open minded free countries on the planet. The riots were in Denmark. So, its not just as if all of these actions are happening in ME countries. There is certainly a strong element of the religion itself which causes some of these responses.


    But remember, these examples in Holland and Denmark are isolated cases that don't represent the whole population of Muslims living in these areas.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Does our leadership here represent your views, ffg?

    Of course not. But they do represent the views of many. And they also came from the very same group called "the people".
  • yosi1
    yosi1 Posts: 3,272
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    But remember, these examples in Holland and Denmark are isolated cases that don't represent the whole population of Muslims living in these areas.

    But they do represent the views of a significant part of the population.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
  • Dustin51
    Dustin51 Posts: 222
    That's horrible. I can't imagine the pain she must be living with.

    Thanks for posting this article.
    Be excellent to each other
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Of course not. But they do represent the views of many. And they also came from the very same group called "the people".

    I think they do what they want without representing the people much these days, at least not the majority. And I think they lie and manipulate to get this done...would you disagree?
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    yosi wrote:
    But they do represent the views of a significant part of the population.

    Then why aren't there more cases of this kind of violence from Muslims in these places?
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    In many countries, sentences like this are handed down by tribal councils, which operate independently of the government. Opinion polls show that significant percentages of people in Muslim countries support sharia law. It is not always a matter of punishments being imposed from above on a helpless public.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • MrBrian
    MrBrian Posts: 2,672
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Of course not. But they do represent the views of many. And they also came from the very same group called "the people".

    Both the shah and saddam along with many other leaders in history were US backed and do not represent the people. The differences between the shah and mossadeq were huge. One main diff was that one was corrupt and US backed. Then the revolution came. So I think Iran is a great example of people rising up against a powerful government but it's not easy.
  • yosi1
    yosi1 Posts: 3,272
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Then why aren't there more cases of this kind of violence from Muslims in these places?

    Why aren't two examples enough? How many examples do there have to be in order for it to be considered significant? Also, I think the lack of a response from the rest of the Muslim world outside the ME certainly seems like another example.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    I think they do what they want without representing the people much these days, at least not the majority. And I think they lie and manipulate to get this done...would you disagree?


    except they dont condone jailing or killing anyone who opposes their beliefs or religion.

    but I think you are right, I wont argue that politicians suck, even your buddy kukinich.. luckily we get to make our own choices without much government involvement and are allowed a loud voice if we oppose.
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    MrBrian wrote:
    Both the shah and saddam along with many other leaders in history were US backed and do not represent the people.

    Huh? Did the US make them in a lab somewhere?
    The differences between the shah and mossadeq were huge. One main diff was that one was corrupt and US backed. Then the revolution came. So I think Iran is a great example of people rising up against a powerful government but it's not easy.

    It is a great example, but they simply replaced one bad government with another. Are the "leaders" responsible for this?
  • dg1979us
    dg1979us Posts: 568
    hippiemom wrote:
    In many countries, sentences like this are handed down by tribal councils, which operate independently of the government. Opinion polls show that significant percentages of people in Muslim countries support sharia law. It is not always a matter of punishments being imposed from above on a helpless public.

    Werent there muslim groups in Canada recently that wanted Islamic courts?
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    I think they do what they want without representing the people much these days, at least not the majority.

    Really? The majority in this country recently (re)elected a whole bunch of people that are largely continuing their policies or were partly responsible for those policies to begin with.
    And I think they lie and manipulate to get this done...would you disagree?

    Lie, sometimes. Manipulate, lots. But again, it takes people to believe the lies and accept the mainpulations. There are many people lying and manipulating here in the states that enjoy little to no popular support. Simply lying and manipulating won't get you power. You either have to tell people what they want to hear or point guns at them and force them to "agree".
  • MrBrian
    MrBrian Posts: 2,672
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Huh? Did the US make them in a lab somewhere?



    It is a great example, but they simply replaced one bad government with another. Are the "leaders" responsible for this?

    yeah yeah yeah, in a lab.
    ---

    I'm saying that the shah was corrupt and US backed, the US replaced an elected government with a corrupt one. this is the point. the US is responsible for the mess in Iran when it did that in 1953.

    Now your last point, let's swing this to america now, the clinton government was corrupt, it was then replaced by a corrupt bush government. the best thing about this? It was the american people who chose it. But then again it's also unfair that in america people are given so few choices of mostly corrupt politicians. wheres the protesting? wheres the revolution?

    You would think that after everything Bush has done, some americans would already be screaming revolution and ready for one. what's the excuse?

    The many human rights violations done by the US not enough? at what point are we gonna make the change here at home?
  • dg1979us
    dg1979us Posts: 568
    MrBrian wrote:
    yeah yeah yeah, in a lab.
    ---

    I'm saying that the shah was corrupt and US backed, the US replaced an elected government with a corrupt one. this is the point. the US is responsible for the mess in Iran when it did that in 1953.

    Now your last point, let's swing this to america now, the clinton government was corrupt, it was then replaced by a corrupt bush government. the best thing about this? It was the american people who chose it. But then again it's also unfair that in america people are given so few choices of mostly corrupt politicians. wheres the protesting? wheres the revolution?

    You would think that after everything Bush has done, some americans would already be screaming revolution and ready for one. what's the excuse?

    The many human rights violations done by the US not enough? at what point are we gonna make the change here at home?


    But we did just vote in the democrats to the majority in congress. Which I think was mostly a vote against Bush, and against the war. I dont think we need a revolution, we just need to vote for better candidates.
  • MrBrian
    MrBrian Posts: 2,672
    dg1979us wrote:
    But we did just vote in the democrats to the majority in congress. Which I think was mostly a vote against Bush, and against the war. I dont think we need a revolution, we just need to vote for better candidates.

    It's symbolic. it means nothing, think about it, most dems voted and supported the war to begin with, so replace some vipers with some hawks.

    It's not like they voted in the complete opposite of who was already in power positions.

    A few things will change with the dems, surface issues. not much else.
  • dg1979us
    dg1979us Posts: 568
    MrBrian wrote:
    It's symbolic. it means nothing, think about it, most dems voted and supported the war to begin with, so replace some vipers with some hawks.

    It's not like they voted in the complete opposite of who was already in power positions.

    A few things will change with the dems, surface issues. not much else.

    Oh I dont disagree with you on that. But, the fact remains that we did show our displeasure with Bush and with the war, and at least tried to put in people to balance Bush's policies. Whether the dems step up is yet to be seen. I would certainly like to see another strong party emerge to offset the repubs and dems however.

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