Of course, but also, I've seen muslims groups protest injustices done by the sauds many times. But it almost seems only symbolic. nothing will change.
Even here in america, how many millions protested the iraq war? but it still went on, look at the huge amount of human rights violations done by the US, in america we can protest all we want, but hey, gitmo still is open and the patriot act still exists. It's get's to a point where people just give up and carry on with their own lives. perhaps that's the case?
That could very well be the case. But since you have been to Saudi Arabia, let me ask you. Even if the people dont like it, do you think maybe they are willing to live with it because they feel that is what their religion asks of them? I have to think this goes a little bit deeper than just an oppressive government.
The reason they protested over the cartoons was in defense of their culture. They see the demonization of their religion constantly all over the world. They are probably tired of seeing it, it gives justification for the agression towards them. They are almost always portrayed as hostile and crazed lunatics. I see it as very possible that they don't want to add to the the already huge amounts of bad press their people receive. If our govt or our press would actually blame their leadership for these faults instead of condeming the people and their culture for these problems perhaps more would speak out.
Thats a bit ironic though. They protest being portrayed as hostile and crazed lunatics, by rioting and acting like hostile and crazed lunatics.
Thats a bit ironic though. They protest being portrayed as hostile and crazed lunatics, by rioting and acting like hostile and crazed lunatics.
I can't argue with that. They didn't prove anyone wrong. So that brings me to wonder what causes such desperate actions from these people. Which leads me back to the demonization and justification of aggression towards Arab people who are constantly being painted as sub-human.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
That could very well be the case. But since you have been to Saudi Arabia, let me ask you. Even if the people dont like it, do you think maybe they are willing to live with it because they feel that is what their religion asks of them? I have to think this goes a little bit deeper than just an oppressive government.
Some, I'm sure do. That I think is obvious. But the vast majority I'm pretty sure don't. I mean if someone feels that this is what their religion tells them then that is a very bad thing, education is an obvious solution showing these kinds of people that these types of things go against Islam.
But from the people I met, none of these types of injustices are accepted. But it's hard for them to do anything about it. In true islam women are held very very high. But in saudi some places don't even allow women through the doors! (like mc donalds, not all but one of them did not allow women inside, they had to eat on the street).
It's accepted only because I think they feel that they can do nothing about it. the whole thing is very sad.
Damn, human race has been in this planet for ages now... When will we start to move forward??? I had such a beautiful day... but shit like this makes it feel like peanuts.
How much longer are we going to watch troglodyte ruling us?
Fighting fire with fire since world's birth, bumping into the same stone over and over again... and we call this evolution?
I can't argue with that. They didn't prove anyone wrong. So that brings me to wonder what causes such desperate actions from these people. Which leads me back to the demonization and justification of aggression towards Arab people who are constantly being painted as sub-human.
I think it is religion that causes desperate actions. Yes, I am sure there is a degree of animosity because of the wars and the relationships between their oppressive governments and the west. But at the heart of these types of actions is religion. The same thing with the Van Gogh murder. I think they felt insulted, and the rioters and the murder decided to take it to that next level of irrational, violent behavior. But I think it was done more or less to defend the honor of Islam.
You are the second person to address me about CHristianity which I have neither mentioned, or defended. It is possible to discuss Islam on its own accord, and not as a comparison to Christianity. ANd yes, there are terrible periods of Christanity and terrible practices throughout history done in the name of Christianity. But in the modern world, it isnt an accurate comparison at all. You get a few attacks on abortion Clinics and you get Jerry Falwell pointing out the gay teletubby. That is a far cry from public beheadings and lashes to someone because they dared to get raped. There are many current issues where I think Christianity over takes common sense in some people, such as the whole sex ed and abstinance issue. But in reality, that is a minor issue compared to what happens in Saudi Arabia.
It is absolutely possible to discuss Islam on its own record, I took Christianity in past centuries just to make my point on how religious thinkers are unable to behave like rational lawmakers. We are lucky religious thinkers only give out opinions in our countries nowadays and stopped making laws, I was just pointing that out and the fact that the people of Saudi Arabia are not as lucky.
It is absolutely possible to discuss Islam on its own record, I took Christianity in past centuries just to make my point on how religious thinkers are unable to behave like rational lawmakers. We are lucky religious thinkers only give out opinions in our countries nowadays and stopped making laws, I was just pointing that out and the fact that the people of Saudi Arabia are not as lucky.
The reason they protested over the cartoons was in defense of their culture. They see the demonization of their religion constantly all over the world. They are probably tired of seeing it, it gives justification for the agression towards them. They are almost always portrayed as hostile and crazed lunatics. I see it as very possible that they don't want to add to the the already huge amounts of bad press their people receive. If our govt or our press would actually blame their leadership for these faults instead of condeming the people and their culture for these problems perhaps more would speak out.
So, they ignore/condone oppression done in the name of their sacred religion, as a PR move?
Okay then.
I can't argue with that. They didn't prove anyone wrong. So that brings me to wonder what causes such desperate actions from these people. Which leads me back to the demonization and justification of aggression towards Arab people who are constantly being painted as sub-human.
..............OR............
............constantly painting themselves as sub-human.
Why is it so easy for you to hold western nation and the people who live there accountable on some levels for their leaders actions, but in cases like this, not so much?
The reason they protested over the cartoons was in defense of their culture. They see the demonization of their religion constantly all over the world. They are probably tired of seeing it, it gives justification for the agression towards them. They are almost always portrayed as hostile and crazed lunatics. I see it as very possible that they don't want to add to the the already huge amounts of bad press their people receive. If our govt or our press would actually blame their leadership for these faults instead of condeming the people and their culture for these problems perhaps more would speak out.
o come on abook. can you be anymore sympathic to your average Islamic extremist? you are justifying their actions when they protested the cartoons?
I think it is religion that causes desperate actions. Yes, I am sure there is a degree of animosity because of the wars and the relationships between their oppressive governments and the west. But at the heart of these types of actions is religion. The same thing with the Van Gogh murder. I think they felt insulted, and the rioters and the murder decided to take it to that next level of irrational, violent behavior. But I think it was done more or less to defend the honor of Islam.
Isn't that along the same as using pedophile priests and abortion clinic bombers as being indicative of Christianity?
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Isn't that along the same as using pedophile priests and abortion clinic bombers as being indicative of Christianity?
no, because pedophile priests and abortion clinic bombing is NOT sanctioned by any major religious leaders, nor any govt, nor is it tolerated by mainstream christianity. Any christian I know abhors those actions, and public outcry against that type of act, is common, and very vocal.
Not so much so in the muslim community tho.
Are you incapable of discussing Islam without having to bring Christianity into the discussion? The two dont necessarily have to go hand in hand you kno.
o come on abook. can you be anymore sympathic to your average Islamic extremist? you are justifying their actions when they protested the cartoons?
I'm just trying to use understanding before condemning a whole group of people. I'm not excusing any violence by extremists groups no matter which religion they happen to be from. I just don't see all Muslim people as being supportive of these actions...I don't think these of actions as applying to the philosophy of all the people living there just the fringe.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I can't argue with that. They didn't prove anyone wrong. So that brings me to wonder what causes such desperate actions from these people. Which leads me back to the demonization and justification of aggression towards Arab people who are constantly being painted as sub-human.
So because they are painted sub-human that they act poorly...? YOU are making them sound pretty dumb.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
Isn't that along the same as using pedophile priests and abortion clinic bombers as being indicative of Christianity?
I dont think I follow. Are you saying that Van Gogh wasnt murdered because he insulted Islam? Are you saying the rioters didnt riot because they felt that their religion was insulted? I didnt say these people represent Islam, but there actions could, and I believe to at least some degree are, conducted on behalf of their religion. And the abortion clinic bomber would be the same way. Though I do think the pedophilia in the priesthood is a little different, and more or less a result of suppressing your sex drive for your entire life. Which is due to Christianity, so I guess that would work too.
I'm just trying to use understanding before condemning a whole group of people. I'm not excusing any violence by extremists groups no matter which religion they happen to be from. I just don't see all Muslim people as being supportive of these actions...I don't think these of actions as applying to the philosophy of all the people living there just the fringe.
Yes, but the silence of the rest of the religion seems like it is condoning those actions. But you seem to ignore this.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
I'm just trying to use understanding before condemning a whole group of people. I'm not excusing any violence by extremists groups no matter which religion they happen to be from. I just don't see all Muslim people as being supportive of these actions...I don't think these of actions as applying to the philosophy of all the people living there just the fringe.
of course its not ALL who act this way. but look at a country like pakistan, Iran, lebanon, or palstine. there are thousands possibly millions who will retort to violence (killing) if something bad is said about mohammad or the quran.
no, because pedophile priests and abortion clinic bombing is NOT sanctioned by any major religious leaders, nor any govt, nor is it tolerated by mainstream christianity. Any christian I know abhors those actions, and public outcry against that type of act, is common, and very vocal.
Not so much so in the muslim community tho.
Are you incapable of discussing Islam without having to bring Christianity into the discussion? The two dont necessarily have to go hand in hand you kno.
I think it's a probelm with the leadership, as well. I've already addressed why I think the Muslim community isn't as outspoken as we are here. They don't have the freedoms we enjoy and the ones that do are weary of giving anymore power to the already large amounts of negativity portrayed towards Muslims, as a people instead of their extremist leadership (which we support in the case of Saudi Arabia).
I happen to feel bringing up the parallels of the extremists in both religions is very relevent.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Isn't that along the same as using pedophile priests and abortion clinic bombers as being indicative of Christianity?
Up until the widespread opposition to and systematic rejection of pedophile priests and abortion clinic bombers, yes.
Look, are actions like this and others that happen within Muslim societies reflection of Islam? Not really, no. They are, however, a reflection of a brand of Islam and the pathetic societies that grow out of it. And like it or not, those pathetic societies dominate places in this world as opposed to being fringe elements in those places. That's where the moral equivalency starts to fall apart, and the comparison you make above starts to look ridiculous.
We're witnessing a severe schism amongst secular and fanatical Muslims. To ignore the existence of the former is to ignore the greatest hope of progress. However, to ignore or attempt to rationalize the immorality and horrors of the latter is to further invite it into your lives.
I think it's a probelm with the leadership, as well. I've already addressed why I think the Muslim community isn't as outspoken as we are here. They don't have the freedoms we enjoy and the ones that do are weary of giving anymore power to the already large amounts of negativity portrayed towards Muslims, as a people instead of their extremist leadership (which we support in the case of Saudi Arabia).
I happen to feel bringing up the parallels of the extremists in both religions is very relevent.
But you also have to keep in mind that the Christian parallels you brought up are not widespread, and are not condoned what so ever by the Church. Where as with the riots, it was Clerics who encouraged the rioting.
Yes, but the silence of the rest of the religion seems like it is condoning those actions. But you seem to ignore this.
Do you think it's possible many of the opposing voices are simply not heard by us? That many of them maybe have no means of expressing themselves without endangering themselves at the same time?
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Something that was overlooked or just ignored by most media with regard to the cartoon protests was that most of the protesters were poor people, people who don't have much, have nothing except for their faith, when they feel that someone is trying to take that away from them which is what I think they felt. The human response, the natural response is to fight. That's where the anger came from.
But you also have to keep in mind that the Christian parallels you brought up are not widespread, and are not condoned what so ever by the Church. Where as with the riots, it was Clerics who encouraged the rioting.
Thankfully, we have the freedom to speak out against these things and condemn them without fear of being punished.
If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Do you think it's possible many of the opposing voices are simply not heard by us? That many of them maybe have no means of expressing themselves without endangering themselves at the same time?
Im sure there is some truth to that. But there is a large Muslim population in Europe where they can express themselves, but for some reason you dont really hear any condemnation out of there either.
I think it's a probelm with the leadership, as well. I've already addressed why I think the Muslim community isn't as outspoken as we are here. They don't have the freedoms we enjoy and the ones that do are weary of giving anymore power to the already large amounts of negativity portrayed towards Muslims, as a people instead of their extremist leadership (which we support in the case of Saudi Arabia).
Ok, great, but why is the Muslim community outside of Saudi Arabia silent? Surely the Muslims in the US and Europe enjoy enough freedoms to speak up. What about Muslim leaders in France?
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
Do you think it's possible many of the opposing voices are simply not heard by us? That many of them maybe have no means of expressing themselves without endangering themselves at the same time?
what does this tell you about the people in general? muslim leaders, or even the average muslim living in the middle east, can not call for peace for fear of getting killed.
Thankfully, we have the freedom to speak out against these things and condemn them without fear of being punished.
I agree. And I certainly realize that we arent talking about 2 even playing fields here. But still, when was the last time you heard a christian leader calling for riots because Christianity was insulted?
Do you think it's possible many of the opposing voices are simply not heard by us? That many of them maybe have no means of expressing themselves without endangering themselves at the same time?
I don't think the Muslim community in the US and especially in Europe has those fears. There are plenty of leaders of the Muslim community that could have said nothing. I find that you are just rationalizing and apologizing for something horrible that is going on.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
Comments
That could very well be the case. But since you have been to Saudi Arabia, let me ask you. Even if the people dont like it, do you think maybe they are willing to live with it because they feel that is what their religion asks of them? I have to think this goes a little bit deeper than just an oppressive government.
Thats a bit ironic though. They protest being portrayed as hostile and crazed lunatics, by rioting and acting like hostile and crazed lunatics.
I can't argue with that. They didn't prove anyone wrong. So that brings me to wonder what causes such desperate actions from these people. Which leads me back to the demonization and justification of aggression towards Arab people who are constantly being painted as sub-human.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Some, I'm sure do. That I think is obvious. But the vast majority I'm pretty sure don't. I mean if someone feels that this is what their religion tells them then that is a very bad thing, education is an obvious solution showing these kinds of people that these types of things go against Islam.
But from the people I met, none of these types of injustices are accepted. But it's hard for them to do anything about it. In true islam women are held very very high. But in saudi some places don't even allow women through the doors! (like mc donalds, not all but one of them did not allow women inside, they had to eat on the street).
It's accepted only because I think they feel that they can do nothing about it. the whole thing is very sad.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
How much longer are we going to watch troglodyte ruling us?
I think it is religion that causes desperate actions. Yes, I am sure there is a degree of animosity because of the wars and the relationships between their oppressive governments and the west. But at the heart of these types of actions is religion. The same thing with the Van Gogh murder. I think they felt insulted, and the rioters and the murder decided to take it to that next level of irrational, violent behavior. But I think it was done more or less to defend the honor of Islam.
It is absolutely possible to discuss Islam on its own record, I took Christianity in past centuries just to make my point on how religious thinkers are unable to behave like rational lawmakers. We are lucky religious thinkers only give out opinions in our countries nowadays and stopped making laws, I was just pointing that out and the fact that the people of Saudi Arabia are not as lucky.
Well on that we would certainly agree.
How very true, and symptomatic of their problem. They themselves are their own worst enemies when it comes to how they are percieved in the world.
So, they ignore/condone oppression done in the name of their sacred religion, as a PR move?
Okay then.
..............OR............
............constantly painting themselves as sub-human.
Why is it so easy for you to hold western nation and the people who live there accountable on some levels for their leaders actions, but in cases like this, not so much?
www.myspace.com/jensvad
o come on abook. can you be anymore sympathic to your average Islamic extremist? you are justifying their actions when they protested the cartoons?
Isn't that along the same as using pedophile priests and abortion clinic bombers as being indicative of Christianity?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
no, because pedophile priests and abortion clinic bombing is NOT sanctioned by any major religious leaders, nor any govt, nor is it tolerated by mainstream christianity. Any christian I know abhors those actions, and public outcry against that type of act, is common, and very vocal.
Not so much so in the muslim community tho.
Are you incapable of discussing Islam without having to bring Christianity into the discussion? The two dont necessarily have to go hand in hand you kno.
www.myspace.com/jensvad
I'm just trying to use understanding before condemning a whole group of people. I'm not excusing any violence by extremists groups no matter which religion they happen to be from. I just don't see all Muslim people as being supportive of these actions...I don't think these of actions as applying to the philosophy of all the people living there just the fringe.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
So because they are painted sub-human that they act poorly...? YOU are making them sound pretty dumb.
I dont think I follow. Are you saying that Van Gogh wasnt murdered because he insulted Islam? Are you saying the rioters didnt riot because they felt that their religion was insulted? I didnt say these people represent Islam, but there actions could, and I believe to at least some degree are, conducted on behalf of their religion. And the abortion clinic bomber would be the same way. Though I do think the pedophilia in the priesthood is a little different, and more or less a result of suppressing your sex drive for your entire life. Which is due to Christianity, so I guess that would work too.
Yes, but the silence of the rest of the religion seems like it is condoning those actions. But you seem to ignore this.
of course its not ALL who act this way. but look at a country like pakistan, Iran, lebanon, or palstine. there are thousands possibly millions who will retort to violence (killing) if something bad is said about mohammad or the quran.
I think it's a probelm with the leadership, as well. I've already addressed why I think the Muslim community isn't as outspoken as we are here. They don't have the freedoms we enjoy and the ones that do are weary of giving anymore power to the already large amounts of negativity portrayed towards Muslims, as a people instead of their extremist leadership (which we support in the case of Saudi Arabia).
I happen to feel bringing up the parallels of the extremists in both religions is very relevent.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Up until the widespread opposition to and systematic rejection of pedophile priests and abortion clinic bombers, yes.
Look, are actions like this and others that happen within Muslim societies reflection of Islam? Not really, no. They are, however, a reflection of a brand of Islam and the pathetic societies that grow out of it. And like it or not, those pathetic societies dominate places in this world as opposed to being fringe elements in those places. That's where the moral equivalency starts to fall apart, and the comparison you make above starts to look ridiculous.
We're witnessing a severe schism amongst secular and fanatical Muslims. To ignore the existence of the former is to ignore the greatest hope of progress. However, to ignore or attempt to rationalize the immorality and horrors of the latter is to further invite it into your lives.
that too. the religious leaders, (which are the only people musliims respond to) never call for peace. ususally its the exact opposite.
do you see jerry farewell or whoever calling on all christians to murder those who dont love jesus?
But you also have to keep in mind that the Christian parallels you brought up are not widespread, and are not condoned what so ever by the Church. Where as with the riots, it was Clerics who encouraged the rioting.
Do you think it's possible many of the opposing voices are simply not heard by us? That many of them maybe have no means of expressing themselves without endangering themselves at the same time?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Thankfully, we have the freedom to speak out against these things and condemn them without fear of being punished.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
Im sure there is some truth to that. But there is a large Muslim population in Europe where they can express themselves, but for some reason you dont really hear any condemnation out of there either.
Ok, great, but why is the Muslim community outside of Saudi Arabia silent? Surely the Muslims in the US and Europe enjoy enough freedoms to speak up. What about Muslim leaders in France?
what does this tell you about the people in general? muslim leaders, or even the average muslim living in the middle east, can not call for peace for fear of getting killed.
I agree. And I certainly realize that we arent talking about 2 even playing fields here. But still, when was the last time you heard a christian leader calling for riots because Christianity was insulted?
I don't think the Muslim community in the US and especially in Europe has those fears. There are plenty of leaders of the Muslim community that could have said nothing. I find that you are just rationalizing and apologizing for something horrible that is going on.