Oh I dont disagree with you on that. But, the fact remains that we did show our displeasure with Bush and with the war, and at least tried to put in people to balance Bush's policies. Whether the dems step up is yet to be seen. I would certainly like to see another strong party emerge to offset the repubs and dems however.
For sure, I get your point. But I think we lost a great chance to get a new strong political party. all we did was give the dems power again. We don't demand anything from them. we just give them power because we don't like the other guy.
We are at such an important time in history. time for change. would be great to see that happen. real change.
For sure, I get your point. But I think we lost a great chance to get a new strong political party. all we did was give the dems power again. We don't demand anything from them. we just give them power because we don't like the other guy.
We are at such an important time in history. time for change. would be great to see that happen. real change.
Again, I agree. But as sad as it is to say, I think it is going to take another terrorist attack or sometype of disaster for us to wake up.
No no no, on the ground. Saddam and the Shah were, again, not created in a vacuum. They were homegrown, not US transplants.
I'm saying that the shah was corrupt and US backed, the US replaced an elected government with a corrupt one. this is the point. the US is responsible for the mess in Iran when it did that in 1953.
Sure. I'm not trying to absolve the United States from guilt in any of these cases. Certainly we've played our part. But so have the British, so have the Russians, now so do the Chinese. Furthermore, the people themselves are not innocent bystanders. You can't just take one element of root cause and pretend it's the whole story.
Now your last point, let's swing this to america now, the clinton government was corrupt, it was then replaced by a corrupt bush government. the best thing about this? It was the american people who chose it. But then again it's also unfair that in america people are given so few choices of mostly corrupt politicians. wheres the protesting? wheres the revolution?
You would think that after everything Bush has done, some americans would already be screaming revolution and ready for one. what's the excuse?
Hehe...you know where those things are? Nowhere. Do you know why they're nowhere? Because the corruption of these leaders in large part mirrors the corruption of those who elect them. Revolutions happen when leaders violate the core principles of culture. Elections happen when leaders grow out of the core principles of culture.
The many human rights violations done by the US not enough? at what point are we gonna make the change here at home?
Hehe...when people actually believe "human right" is something other than a buzzword. So, probably never.
hmmm, yeah they were homegrown but they were not elected. they were put in. the people did not want them.
Yeah I should also mention the british. I often leave them out which I probably should'nt because they often played huge parts in world issues. But then again right now it's america with the power not the british. The british are like americas puppy.
Shit, I don't expect our government to criticize anyone ... which is probably a good thing, they're in no position to be pointing fingers. And I know that Saudis don't have freedom of speech. But I could find NO instance of a Muslim anywhere in the world criticizing this action ... not in the Middle East, not in the US, not in Europe. And if you were getting all your news from Al Jazeera, you'd never know it was happening. Are they embarrassed, or is it such a common occurance that it's not even news?
Again, if this were a one-time deal it would still be tragic, but I wouldn't be talking about it as a Muslim issue. It's not a one-time thing though, stories like this crop up all the time from throughout the middle east and Asia. Only Muslim countries repeatedly do things like this, and I don't recall once hearing a Muslim anywhere denounce it.
There are actually a lot muslim women groups that denounce it but obviously being women they are ignored, or imprisoned etc, and as they are mostly in danger they often operate underground in secret as it were. I saw a programme the other night about some women in Iran who were fighting for women's rights but obviously the barriers are the men, media etc.
I haven't read this whole thread so someone has probably pointed this out already!
"We have to change the concept of patriotism to one of “matriotism” — love of humanity that transcends war. A matriarch would never send her own children off to wars that kill other people’s children." Cindy Sheehan --- London, Brixton, 14 July 1993 London, Wembley, 1996 London, Wembley, 18 June 2007 London, O2, 18 August 2009 London, Hammersmith Apollo (Ed solo), 31 July 2012 Milton Keynes Bowl, 11 July 2014
London, Hammersmith Apollo (Ed solo), 06 June 2017
I read an article in Reader's Digest on a pretty interesting woman while waiting for an appointment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wafa_Sultan I was reminded of this thread and how I had difficulty finding strong muslim outrage on the subject.
Wafa Sultan grew up in Syria and became a medical doctor there. She was protected by her brothers and stayed within 'muslim propriety' until one of her professors was gunned down in front of her & 200 other students. While a doctor in a large hospital there, she witnesses many female victims of domestic abuse, but she was forbidden to discuss anything due the culture of male dominance & extreme, tainted religious beliefs. She has been very vocal on the misinterpretation of Islam that breeds terrorists & misogynists. She currently lives in LA and receives death threats on a regular basis, apparently. The arms of these terrorists reach very far, she received a message once that "even in America, there are limits".
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Sure. I'm not trying to absolve the United States from guilt in any of these cases. Certainly we've played our part. But so have the British, so have the Russians, now so do the Chinese. Furthermore, the people themselves are not innocent bystanders. You can't just take one element of root cause and pretend it's the whole story.
yeah, but the US cannot really control the actions or china, england, or anywhere else. we can wake up to our own role and try to change that though.
Comments
For sure, I get your point. But I think we lost a great chance to get a new strong political party. all we did was give the dems power again. We don't demand anything from them. we just give them power because we don't like the other guy.
We are at such an important time in history. time for change. would be great to see that happen. real change.
Again, I agree. But as sad as it is to say, I think it is going to take another terrorist attack or sometype of disaster for us to wake up.
No no no, on the ground. Saddam and the Shah were, again, not created in a vacuum. They were homegrown, not US transplants.
Sure. I'm not trying to absolve the United States from guilt in any of these cases. Certainly we've played our part. But so have the British, so have the Russians, now so do the Chinese. Furthermore, the people themselves are not innocent bystanders. You can't just take one element of root cause and pretend it's the whole story.
Hehe...you know where those things are? Nowhere. Do you know why they're nowhere? Because the corruption of these leaders in large part mirrors the corruption of those who elect them. Revolutions happen when leaders violate the core principles of culture. Elections happen when leaders grow out of the core principles of culture.
Hehe...when people actually believe "human right" is something other than a buzzword. So, probably never.
Yeah I should also mention the british. I often leave them out which I probably should'nt because they often played huge parts in world issues. But then again right now it's america with the power not the british. The british are like americas puppy.
There are actually a lot muslim women groups that denounce it but obviously being women they are ignored, or imprisoned etc, and as they are mostly in danger they often operate underground in secret as it were. I saw a programme the other night about some women in Iran who were fighting for women's rights but obviously the barriers are the men, media etc.
I haven't read this whole thread so someone has probably pointed this out already!
---
London, Brixton, 14 July 1993
London, Wembley, 1996
London, Wembley, 18 June 2007
London, O2, 18 August 2009
London, Hammersmith Apollo (Ed solo), 31 July 2012
Milton Keynes Bowl, 11 July 2014
Wafa Sultan grew up in Syria and became a medical doctor there. She was protected by her brothers and stayed within 'muslim propriety' until one of her professors was gunned down in front of her & 200 other students. While a doctor in a large hospital there, she witnesses many female victims of domestic abuse, but she was forbidden to discuss anything due the culture of male dominance & extreme, tainted religious beliefs. She has been very vocal on the misinterpretation of Islam that breeds terrorists & misogynists. She currently lives in LA and receives death threats on a regular basis, apparently. The arms of these terrorists reach very far, she received a message once that "even in America, there are limits".
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
yeah, but the US cannot really control the actions or china, england, or anywhere else. we can wake up to our own role and try to change that though.