Saudi Kidnap Rape victim faces 90 lashes

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  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    yosi wrote:
    Yes, but the silence of the rest of the religion seems like it is condoning those actions. But you seem to ignore this.

    that too. the religious leaders, (which are the only people musliims respond to) never call for peace. ususally its the exact opposite.

    do you see jerry farewell or whoever calling on all christians to murder those who dont love jesus?
  • dg1979us
    dg1979us Posts: 568
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    I think it's a probelm with the leadership, as well. I've already addressed why I think the Muslim community isn't as outspoken as we are here. They don't have the freedoms we enjoy and the ones that do are weary of giving anymore power to the already large amounts of negativity portrayed towards Muslims, as a people instead of their extremist leadership (which we support in the case of Saudi Arabia).

    I happen to feel bringing up the parallels of the extremists in both religions is very relevent.

    But you also have to keep in mind that the Christian parallels you brought up are not widespread, and are not condoned what so ever by the Church. Where as with the riots, it was Clerics who encouraged the rioting.
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    yosi wrote:
    Yes, but the silence of the rest of the religion seems like it is condoning those actions. But you seem to ignore this.


    Do you think it's possible many of the opposing voices are simply not heard by us? That many of them maybe have no means of expressing themselves without endangering themselves at the same time?
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • MrBrian
    MrBrian Posts: 2,672
    Something that was overlooked or just ignored by most media with regard to the cartoon protests was that most of the protesters were poor people, people who don't have much, have nothing except for their faith, when they feel that someone is trying to take that away from them which is what I think they felt. The human response, the natural response is to fight. That's where the anger came from.
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    dg1979us wrote:
    But you also have to keep in mind that the Christian parallels you brought up are not widespread, and are not condoned what so ever by the Church. Where as with the riots, it was Clerics who encouraged the rioting.

    Thankfully, we have the freedom to speak out against these things and condemn them without fear of being punished.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • dg1979us
    dg1979us Posts: 568
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Do you think it's possible many of the opposing voices are simply not heard by us? That many of them maybe have no means of expressing themselves without endangering themselves at the same time?

    Im sure there is some truth to that. But there is a large Muslim population in Europe where they can express themselves, but for some reason you dont really hear any condemnation out of there either.
  • yosi1
    yosi1 Posts: 3,272
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    I think it's a probelm with the leadership, as well. I've already addressed why I think the Muslim community isn't as outspoken as we are here. They don't have the freedoms we enjoy and the ones that do are weary of giving anymore power to the already large amounts of negativity portrayed towards Muslims, as a people instead of their extremist leadership (which we support in the case of Saudi Arabia).

    Ok, great, but why is the Muslim community outside of Saudi Arabia silent? Surely the Muslims in the US and Europe enjoy enough freedoms to speak up. What about Muslim leaders in France?
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Do you think it's possible many of the opposing voices are simply not heard by us? That many of them maybe have no means of expressing themselves without endangering themselves at the same time?


    what does this tell you about the people in general? muslim leaders, or even the average muslim living in the middle east, can not call for peace for fear of getting killed.
  • dg1979us
    dg1979us Posts: 568
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Thankfully, we have the freedom to speak out against these things and condemn them without fear of being punished.

    I agree. And I certainly realize that we arent talking about 2 even playing fields here. But still, when was the last time you heard a christian leader calling for riots because Christianity was insulted?
  • yosi1
    yosi1 Posts: 3,272
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Do you think it's possible many of the opposing voices are simply not heard by us? That many of them maybe have no means of expressing themselves without endangering themselves at the same time?

    I don't think the Muslim community in the US and especially in Europe has those fears. There are plenty of leaders of the Muslim community that could have said nothing. I find that you are just rationalizing and apologizing for something horrible that is going on.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Up until the widespread opposition to and systematic rejection of pedophile priests and abortion clinic bombers, yes.

    Look, are actions like this and others that happen within Muslim societies reflection of Islam? Not really, no. They are, however, a reflection of a brand of Islam and the pathetic societies that grow out of it. And like it or not, those pathetic societies dominate places in this world as opposed to being fringe elements in those places. That's where the moral equivalency starts to fall apart, and the comparison you make above starts to look ridiculous.

    We're witnessing a severe schism amongst secular and fanatical Muslims. To ignore the existence of the former is to ignore the greatest hope of progress. However, to ignore or attempt to rationalize the immorality and horrors of the latter is to further invite it into your lives.

    I'm not rationalizing it, at all. I'm just not so quick to believe the people of these regions are supportive of these actions and as happy with their leadership, as it is portrayed they are.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    yosi wrote:
    I don't think the Muslim community in the US and especially in Europe has those fears. There are plenty of leaders of the Muslim community that could have said nothing. I find that you are just rationalizing and apologizing for something horrible that is going on.

    Nope, I just trying to understand their silence or our lacking of hearing their voice in the matter.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • yosi1
    yosi1 Posts: 3,272
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Nope, I just trying to understand their silence or our lacking of hearing their voice in the matter.

    Ok, so according to your understanding, why is the Muslim community in Europe and the US silent? Does it not give the impression of condoning these kind of actions if they do not speak out against it?
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    I'm not rationalizing it, at all. I'm just not so quick to believe the people of these regions are supportive of these actions and as happy with their leadership, as it is portrayed they are.

    Well, I think you're maybe half right here. Certainly all people in these regions are not supportive or happy with their leadership. But when you look at places like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia and a handful of other Muslim societies, I think you're mostly wrong. Places like Iran, I think you're definitely right.

    The scariest practical element of Wahhabism and similar cultural systems is the popular support they have. Portraying the common Muslim in many nations as an oppressed moderate as incredibly foolish as portraying him or her as some bloodthirsty terrorist.
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    dg1979us wrote:
    I agree. And I certainly realize that we arent talking about 2 even playing fields here. But still, when was the last time you heard a christian leader calling for riots because Christianity was insulted?

    That's very true. There is definitely are much larger sense of desperation with these people, like their lives are at stake...I don't know. They are deeply religious, as most poorer people seem to be. And now that's being demonized out from under them as being evil and they don't see it that way. They're methods of violence is obviously wrong and counterproductive but it would be an injustice to simply judge and not try to understand the root of the problem. It's not as simple as Muslim culture is evil.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Well, I think you're maybe half right here. Certainly all people in these regions are not supportive or happy with their leadership. But when you look at places like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia and a handful of other Muslim societies, I think you're mostly wrong. Places like Iran, I think you're definitely right.

    The scariest practical element of Wahhabism and similar cultural systems is the popular support they have. Portraying the common Muslim in many nations as an oppressed moderate as incredibly foolish as portraying him or her as some bloodthirsty terrorist.

    I view the religous leadership of these places as twisting the religion for their own puposes and they using the peoples devotion to it for their own advantage and power. I think the larger problem is with the leadership not the people.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    yosi wrote:
    Ok, so according to your understanding, why is the Muslim community in Europe and the US silent? Does it not give the impression of condoning these kind of actions if they do not speak out against it?

    So you're saying that these people in Europe and the US condone these violent acts and agree with it because that's how Islam is supposed to be? I've already said what I thought about it.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    I view the religous leadership of these places as twisting the religion for their own puposes and they using the peoples devotion to it for their own advantage and power.

    Definitely. However, I also view the religious followership accepting that twisted religion, granting their devotion and ceding their power to them.
    I think the larger problem is with the leadership not the people.

    Meh. The leadership was once the people, abook.
  • yosi1
    yosi1 Posts: 3,272
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    So you're saying that these people in Europe and the US condone these violent acts and agree with it because that's how Islam is supposed to be? I've already said what I thought about it.

    I'm saying that by being silent they certainly give that impression and it would be wiser for them to speak up. Do you not think that silence does not give the impression of condoning?

    All you've said is that they haven't spoken up because they fear they are in danger and thus won't speak up. OR that they don't want to bring attention to this and thus have their religion demonized more. However, I still believe that they would be better off separating themselves off from it by condemning these sorts of acts.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
  • dg1979us
    dg1979us Posts: 568
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    That's very true. There is definitely are much larger sense of desperation with these people, like their lives are at stake...I don't know. They are deeply religious, as most poorer people seem to be. And now that's being demonized out from under them as being evil and they don't see it that way. They're methods of violence is obviously wrong and counterproductive but it would be an injustice to simply judge and not try to understand the root of the problem. It's not as simple as Muslim culture is evil.

    No I realize that. But I certainly think there is a level of brainwashing, especially with regards to Wahabbism in Saudi Arabia. I think what we have is more or less a religion with very faithful followers, living in countries with very corrupt governments. You throw in Western greed and you have some serious issues. However, I mentioned Theo Van Gogh earlier, who was murdered in Holland, one of the most open minded free countries on the planet. The riots were in Denmark. So, its not just as if all of these actions are happening in ME countries. There is certainly a strong element of the religion itself which causes some of these responses.

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