I think this question might be better understood if we looked outside of the west for a second:
I am involved in work that takes place in Arua, Uganda; where there is a massively growing church full of Christians spreading the gospel so quickly that there simply aren't enough well trained leaders to go around anymore.
Because of this, the teaching has fallen apart in many ways, as people who do not know enough about the message of Christ are being put in a position of leadership, and thus are inserting their own cultural values into the Christian message.
In Uganda, one of the main problems in the church is that women are treated like dirt; many men have 3 or 4 wives, and think nothing wrong of it, even Christian men. Fathers are not expected to have to look after children (that is the womans job) and women are considered completely substandard.
We are involved in work over there to show sexual equality, and teach church leaders the gospel so that they may better understand and teach the men in the church how to treat women.
Now, when the women's rights movement starts there (which it will), many Christians will be up in arms against it; not because of Christian values, but because they do not know enough about the gospel, and thus are allowing their own cultural ideas to fill the gaps.
The situation is slightly different in the west, because homosexuality is a sin, while being a woman is not. But the Christian reaction bears many similarities:
In America and England, there are a huge number of churches and people who attend church because it's what you do, and do not fully understand the gospel, so they are allowing their own values to fill the gaps.
The gospel teaches that all men are equal, and all men are sinful. End of story. So homosexuals are sinning, just like everybody else. No more, no less.
As a Christian, it is justifiable to say that you do not want homosexuals to be able to get married: that is a statement of your belief based on what God says.
But, as a Christian, it is not justifiable to consider homosexuals second class citizens, or to call their sin greater than any other.
People are using their own prejudices to fill the gaps in a gospel they don't fully understand. That is why 'Christianity' is being seen to severely attack homosexuals.
Well said - and a logical theory. It's a shame that that is the way things are, but I guess this is the way of the world...
No - I see what you guys are saying... I just disagree with it.
What homosexuals are doing is similar to the way african americans fought for their civil rights back in the day...
But for every one that is shouting for their rights, there are five screaming about how awful homosexuality is...
That's just the way I see it...
i thought it was white union soldiers fighting and dying for african american rights during the civil war. and a white president too. and it was IKE'S wife fighting for their civil rights while he was president. during the '60's when we accepted everyone as equal; we (the younger generation) helped blacks obtain that equality.
i thought it was white union soldiers fighting and dying for african american rights during the civil war. and a white president too. and it was IKE'S wife fighting for their civil rights while he was president. during the '60's when we accepted everyone as equal; we (the younger generation) helped blacks obtain that equality.
This is getting to be a different topic...
but come on - the black community achieved some/most of this themselves. It's not like "we" just decided to let them in the club all of a sudden. They fought for it, too...
This may be the meaning of what the link you provided was about. And I can understand what this rationale is about. I'm quite big on holding people accountable, myself. The problem is, we all have planks in our eyes at all times, and for me to say to someone what they are doing is wrong is condescending. The Jesus I know and Love does not advocate standing above anyone ever. Hence people who tell others they are sinners come off as intolerant. I've met many Christians who come off as good representations of the Jesus-mindset when they seek to help in love--they are not judging or condescending or hinting at intolerance that may exist in their hearts. So, If someone like the earlier poster is getting feedback that he/she is intolerant, that is the opposite of speaking in Love.
As Ed Roland of Collective Soul (whose father was a preacher) says in the song "Blame" : "When Truth is your reason lay the blame on me". Or "When Love is your constant lay the blame on me."
Once one is even hinting at intolerance and insensitivity, one has stepped out of Truth and Love.
I'll only somewhat disgree with the last statement. I think you can be intolerant, of sin, and be in truth and love. Discipline and love can go hand in hand. Discipline is the result of being intolerant of judgemental of an action.
To me the meaning is very much changed, because the original sentence shortened, implies we must only speak the truth in love. The full sentence explains how when we do so, we grow up in all things into him, which to me sounds like we personally flourish in our Christ-consciousness. It is about us being loving and truthful, not about condemning someone else.
I agree we should flourish in Christ consciousness and it is about being loving and truthful. Sometimes love is manifested in disciplining. But i agree it is not our job to condemn. But i feel it is the responsibility of Christians to help each other. Sometimes help is asking the tough questions
I accept what other people believe and I support people doing the best that they feel they can within the spirit of Love and Truth.
Once people, going by their flawed human perspective, begin to throw around judgment and words like sin, new sin can flow--the sin of not raising one up, but rather putting them down in the false name of building them up. Being told one is intolerant towards homosexuals is a BIG sign of this error (again referring to what the person who originally brought up this point said).
In my opinion (for what it's worth) it depends on who's telling you you're being intolerant and in what way. If i think it's a sin to practice homosexuality that's not being intolerant that's having an opinion about an issue. If i say i won't work / eat / talk with a homosexual then that is intolerant and not christ like. We'd most likely agree that cheating on a spouse is adultery; therefore a sin...is that being intolerant?
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
I'll only somewhat disgree with the last statement. I think you can be intolerant, of sin, and be in truth and love. Discipline and love can go hand in hand. Discipline is the result of being intolerant of judgemental of an action.
I agree we should flourish in Christ consciousness and it is about being loving and truthful. Sometimes love is manifested in disciplining. But i agree it is not our job to condemn. But i feel it is the responsibility of Christians to help each other. Sometimes help is asking the tough questions
In my opinion (for what it's worth) it depends on who's telling you you're being intolerant and in what way. If i think it's a sin to practice homosexuality that's not being intolerant that's having an opinion about an issue. If i say i won't work / eat / talk with a homosexual then that is intolerant and not christ like. We'd most likely agree that cheating on a spouse is adultery; therefore a sin...is that being intolerant?
I fully support each person deciding for themselves what they believe regarding homosexuality being a sin.
My main reason for opposing judgement on others is because I know they psychological principles behind the human shadow--the plank in our eyes. The plank in our eyes, or our filters through which we judge others is always about us. We can not possibly understand or define another human being--all we do when we judge is show our opinion and our judgments. There is a lot of psychological stuff about how when we learn to heal and forgive our own inner issues, we learn to understand the issues of others and therefore are rendered unable to judge. When one gets to that place of understanding, one is actually truly in truth.
I love God; I've had numerous spiritual experiences. When religion is about judging and losing sight of what the prophets really told us, it's not about God, it's about human arrogance. Its about forgetting that the BASE premise to accepting Jesus as our saviour is accepting we are fully human and flawed.
I can understand bumbling around in the world and learning with our brothers and sisters, and judging along the way. I've been there--and still am half the time. The thing is, we're accountable for anytime we step out of that constant of Love and degrade another human being in any way, and will be called to account for that. I fully respect and support people having their very personal beliefs and growing and learning in Love and the spirit of truth.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I fully support each person deciding for themselves what they believe regarding homosexuality being a sin.
My main reason for opposing judgement on others is because I know they psychological principles behind the human shadow--the plank in our eyes. The plank in our eyes, or our filters through which we judge others is always about us. We can not possibly understand or define another human being--all we do when we judge is show our opinion and our judgments. There is a lot of psychological stuff about how when we learn to heal and forgive our own inner issues, we learn to understand the issues of others and therefore are rendered unable to judge. When one gets to that place of understanding, one is actually truly in truth.
I love God; I've had numerous spiritual experiences. When religion is about judging and losing sight of what the prophets really told us, it's not about God, it's about human arrogance. Its about forgetting that the BASE premise to accepting Jesus as our saviour is accepting we are fully human and flawed.
I can understand bumbling around in the world and learning with our brothers and sisters, and judging along the way. I've been there--and still am half the time. The thing is, we're accountable for anytime we step out of that constant of Love and degrade another human being in any way, and will be called to account for that. I fully respect and support people having their very personal beliefs and growing and learning in Love and the spirit of truth.
i fully agree. as i said in the respect for others on the board thread; we're here discussing our opinions. the disrespect comes in when one judges anothers opinion. you may know something i don't and visa versa. in 1490; the world argued the world was flat. in 1635 the world argued that the sun revolved around the earth. as new facts and discoveries are found; yesterday's facts are flawed and new facts replace the old.
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Well said - and a logical theory. It's a shame that that is the way things are, but I guess this is the way of the world...
i thought it was white union soldiers fighting and dying for african american rights during the civil war. and a white president too. and it was IKE'S wife fighting for their civil rights while he was president. during the '60's when we accepted everyone as equal; we (the younger generation) helped blacks obtain that equality.
got to admit, extremely witty.....;).
or could it be that je'sus comes in this form of a browneye witness????
sorry i couldn't resist....
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
This is getting to be a different topic...
but come on - the black community achieved some/most of this themselves. It's not like "we" just decided to let them in the club all of a sudden. They fought for it, too...
I'll only somewhat disgree with the last statement. I think you can be intolerant, of sin, and be in truth and love. Discipline and love can go hand in hand. Discipline is the result of being intolerant of judgemental of an action.
I agree we should flourish in Christ consciousness and it is about being loving and truthful. Sometimes love is manifested in disciplining. But i agree it is not our job to condemn. But i feel it is the responsibility of Christians to help each other. Sometimes help is asking the tough questions
In my opinion (for what it's worth) it depends on who's telling you you're being intolerant and in what way. If i think it's a sin to practice homosexuality that's not being intolerant that's having an opinion about an issue. If i say i won't work / eat / talk with a homosexual then that is intolerant and not christ like. We'd most likely agree that cheating on a spouse is adultery; therefore a sin...is that being intolerant?
My main reason for opposing judgement on others is because I know they psychological principles behind the human shadow--the plank in our eyes. The plank in our eyes, or our filters through which we judge others is always about us. We can not possibly understand or define another human being--all we do when we judge is show our opinion and our judgments. There is a lot of psychological stuff about how when we learn to heal and forgive our own inner issues, we learn to understand the issues of others and therefore are rendered unable to judge. When one gets to that place of understanding, one is actually truly in truth.
I love God; I've had numerous spiritual experiences. When religion is about judging and losing sight of what the prophets really told us, it's not about God, it's about human arrogance. Its about forgetting that the BASE premise to accepting Jesus as our saviour is accepting we are fully human and flawed.
I can understand bumbling around in the world and learning with our brothers and sisters, and judging along the way. I've been there--and still am half the time. The thing is, we're accountable for anytime we step out of that constant of Love and degrade another human being in any way, and will be called to account for that. I fully respect and support people having their very personal beliefs and growing and learning in Love and the spirit of truth.
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i fully agree. as i said in the respect for others on the board thread; we're here discussing our opinions. the disrespect comes in when one judges anothers opinion. you may know something i don't and visa versa. in 1490; the world argued the world was flat. in 1635 the world argued that the sun revolved around the earth. as new facts and discoveries are found; yesterday's facts are flawed and new facts replace the old.