The "sin" of homosexuality

decides2dream

just an aside...we have completely hijacked a thread about homosexuality and made it about buddhism. i am just as guilty...but just thought i'd take a moment to recognize my complicity.

angelica

RainDog wrote:

Most of this is coming from the Buddhist belief in different realms of existence (different dimensions, say) and the idea that entities inhabit these realms. Gods are more like "gods" (note the quotes) and are not regarded as creative beings. When Siddhartha Gautama (the OB - Original Buddha **wikka/skritch/wikka**) sought enlightenment through the Hindu belief system, he found it to be unhealthy and ultimately damaging (he spent many years as an ascetic) to follow these beings regarded as Gods. After attaining enlightenment, he never denied their existence; but he did deny them the place of Superior Beings - instead tending to regard them as supernatural frauds.

And, again, there are different denominations of Buddhism - some take a more supernatural path, others do not. For all of them, though, the existence of a Creator Being (the Alpha and Omega) is irrelevent - whether you believe in one or not.

To me, again, the differences come down to how people interpret their experiences. The light that passeth all understanding, is the light that passeth all understanding for me, personally.

If you are familiar with those who talk of levels of consciousness, they are well charted. The point is, there are levels of consciousness beyond what is here and now. Yes, that is where myths come from, or Jung's collective unconscious, or the akashic records. It's not the physical world as we know it, but when one experiences it, it is real none the less. The ultimate of buddhism is my God. And all gods spring from it as well. I've seen enough big picture views of these realms, that I see the connections. I understand people often see the differences.

RainDog

decides2dream wrote:

just an aside...we have completely hijacked a thread about homosexuality and made it about buddhism. i am just as guilty...but just thought i'd take a moment to recognize my complicity.

I can bring it back - watch this:

According to the Dali Lama (Tibetan Buddhism), homosexuality goes against the Buddhist precept to avoid immoral sex. Of course, that's just the Dali Lama.


Oh, and a Zen Master I can't remember the name of now once described Buddha as "dried shit on a stick." I don't know what that has to do with anything, but I thought it was funny.

onelongsong

RainDog wrote:

You're right about Jesus being in the Islamic and Jewish texts - but I don't think he's mentioned in any traditional Buddhist or Hindu scriptures. I've read passages by more modern Buddhists regarding the many similarities between the teachings of Jesus and Buddha - some going to far as to call Jesus a Bodhivista (enlightened one) - but not in what could be called "scripture." For one, Buddha predated Jesus by about 500 years. As for Hindu - well, that's going back even further.

Also, any positive mentions of Jesus by Buddhists (and I've encountered many - lotsa respect amongst the Buddhists) are still tempered with the belief that he is not the son of God.

i don't remember which hindu God; but the scriptures speak of him as a spitual teacher. the hindu God agreed with those teachings saying "all rivers lead to the sea". Jesus's purpose was to get the hindus to honor only one God; but that backfired.
buddism's nirvana is quite similar to the basic christian heaven.

decides2dream

RainDog wrote:

I can bring it back - watch this:

According to the Dali Lama (Tibetan Buddhism), homosexuality goes against the Buddhist precept to avoid immoral sex. Of course, that's just the Dali Lama.


Oh, and a Zen Master I can't remember the name of now once described Buddha as "dried shit on a stick." I don't know what that has to do with anything, but I thought it was funny.

excellent work!
*applauds*

however it then brings up the question...why is it thought to be immoral?

NakedClown

decides2dream wrote:

excellent work!
*applauds*

however it then brings up the question...why is it thought to be immoral?

And we're back to the discussion!

Although the history lesson was fantastic.

RainDog

onelongsong wrote:

buddism's nirvana is quite similar to the basic christian heaven.

Some denominations, perhaps, but not all. Many Buddhists believe that Nirvana is the anhiliation of the self as the last bit of desire left - that Nirvana equals Non-Existence.

decides2dream

RainDog wrote:

Many Buddhists believe that Nirvana is the anhiliation of the self as the last bit of desire left - that Nirvana equals Non-Existence.

that is my understanding of it, what i have read, etc.



*btw - can't say i didn't try to get back on track.

onelongsong

angelica wrote:

Thank you.

I personally know God does not throw us into a hell. Our hell is our own judgment of our own deeds, when we become fully aware of the exact ramifications of our actions. I basically agree with your assessment of hell on earth--I've lived a bunch of it. About being reborn, I believe that concept is in human terms, and that beyond our human experience time does not exist. I personally believe I am God, you are God, each of us is God, incarnated in separation as everthing all at once--beyond time. Being unified with God, to me, is far, far, far beyond hell and we can take steps towards God or towards hell in each moment.

i agree with that. if God made us in his own image; then he is within all of us.
i attended a college prep and was required to take 4 years of theology which included the other religions. 10 years later i had a brain aneurysm break during surgery. i was legally brain dead for almost 20 minutes. my family was told i would never come out of the coma and if i did; i'd be a vegetable. during that time (20 minutes) i saw and learned alot. i was no longer roman catholic; but much more spiritual. there is no name for my religion. it is the combination of the pure roots of all religions.

surferdude

angelica wrote:

Can you quote what Jesus specifically said?

Give unto Ceaser that which is Ceaser's. I think is how it goes. Given the greater context of the New Testament Jesus should concern and intervened in the church's state of affairs, but 100% stayed out of politics.

onelongsong

RainDog wrote:

Some denominations, perhaps, but not all. Many Buddhists believe that Nirvana is the anhiliation of the self as the last bit of desire left - that Nirvana equals Non-Existence.

i think that is taken out of context. nirvana is non-existance on earth. non-existance as human beings. promotion (if you will) to the higher level.

chopitdown

angelica wrote:

I merely wonder how you factor in the plank in your own eye while judging others. I thought Jesus told us we cannot judge others, and that only God can truly judge.

this addresses the don't judge question better than I can

Question: "What does the Bible mean that we are not to judge others?"



Answer: It seems that whenever one person confronts another person over an issue, the statement "Do not judge!" comes up. Christians are often accused of "judging" in contradiction to what the Bible says whenever they speak out against a sinful activity. However, that is not the meaning of the Scripture verses which state, "Do not judge." When Jesus told us not to judge (Matthew 7:1), He was telling us not to judge hypocritically. Matthew 7:2-5 declares, "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, Let me take the speck out of your eye when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."



In Matthew 7:2-5, Jesus warns against judging someone else for their sin when you yourself are sinning even worse. That is the kind of judging Jesus commanded us not to do. If a believer sees another believer sinning, it is their Christian duty to lovingly and respectfully confront the person with their sin (Matthew 18:15-17). This is not judging, but rather pointing out the truth in hope of bringing repentance in the other person (James 5:20). We are to speak the truth in love (Ephesians 4:15). We are to proclaim what God's Word says about sin. 2 Timothy 4:2 instructs us, "Preach the Word ; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage — with great patience and careful instruction." We are to "judge" sin, but always with the goal of presenting the solution for sin and its consequences - the Lord Jesus Christ (John 14:6).
http://www.gotquestions.org/do-not-judge.html

RainDog

onelongsong wrote:

i think that is taken out of context. nirvana is non-existance on earth. non-existance as human beings. promotion (if you will) to the higher level.

Just as in some denominations of Christianity Hell is eternal fire, and in others it is instead the absence of God - in Buddhism there are different interpretations of what Nirvana is. Those beliefs are no more or less "out of context" than the differing beliefs of any religion.

According to Gautama, it is not useful to those who wish to attain enlightenment to think about what the afterlife will be like for the enlightened being.

onelongsong

RainDog wrote:

Just as in some denominations of Christianity Hell is eternal fire, and in others it is instead the absence of God - in Buddhism there are different interpretations of what Nirvana is. Those beliefs are no more or less "out of context" than the differing beliefs of any religion.

According to Gautama, it is not useful to those who wish to attain enlightenment to think about what the afterlife will be like for the enlightened being.

just curious. why would buddists honor a man that has been dead for 2500 years and no longer exists in any form....anywhere? this teaches DO WHAT YOU WANT B/C THERE'S NOTHING WHEN IT'S OVER. what is the motivation to achieve enlightenment when it leads nowhere?

boxwine_in_hell

The fundamental and underlying theme of Buddhism is to eliminate desires and therefore eliminate suffering, since desire causes suffering. Therefore by that logic both heterosexual and homosexual sex act upon sexual desires so neither is more wrong than the other. I'm not sure how the Buddha exactly thought we were going to propagate the species but that is another issue. Maybe he thought you wouldn't attain Nirvana until after you had your children.

onelongsong

RainDog wrote:

Just as in some denominations of Christianity Hell is eternal fire, and in others it is instead the absence of God - in Buddhism there are different interpretations of what Nirvana is. Those beliefs are no more or less "out of context" than the differing beliefs of any religion.

According to Gautama, it is not useful to those who wish to attain enlightenment to think about what the afterlife will be like for the enlightened being.

pure christianity does not mention or describe hell. it was dante who imagined this and wrote a popular book about it. you can't take the writings of man or ideas that man interjects into religion to be truth. in 1635 the pope ordered galello assassinated because of his findings that the earth revolves around the sun. God never said the sun revolves around the earth but this pope found it threatening. a group of bishops decided what writings will make up the bible. all other writings and scriptures were destroyed.
man has modified religion to make it more "appealing" to the current times. to discuss religion on a theological level; one must go back to the basics prior to mans' intervention.

boxwine_in_hell

RainDog wrote:

According to Gautama, it is not useful to those who wish to attain enlightenment to think about what the afterlife will be like for the enlightened being.

I think Sidhartha's friend's called him Buzzkill behind his back, but there is no evidence this was ever his nickname.

decides2dream

boxwine_in_hell wrote:

I think Sidhartha's friend's called him Buzzkill behind his back, but there is no evidence this was ever his nickname.

RainDog

onelongsong wrote:

just curious. why would buddists honor a man that has been dead for 2500 years and no longer exists in any form....anywhere? this teaches DO WHAT YOU WANT B/C THERE'S NOTHING WHEN IT'S OVER. what is the motivation to achieve enlightenment when it leads nowhere?

Because of what happens if you don't acheive enlightenment - reincarnation. According to Buddhist philosophy, all life is suffering. If you do not achieve enlightenment, your spirit will be recycled by this universe and your suffering will continue. If you do acheive enlightenment, your spirit breaks free from the life/death/life cycle and you remain at peace - and to Buddhists, true peace is the absence of the self. What that means, exactly, has been interpreted many times over, with many Buddhists believing it to mean non-existence.

Also, there is a fundamental point to your post that many Buddhists would take issue with. It implies desire. In Buddhism, desire is the ultimate source of suffering. If you seek enlightenment, you must do it without desire - without motivation, so to speak. Perhaps a Christian seeks salvation for fear of being left out of Heaven (not all, but bear with me). A Buddhist should seek enlightenment simply because it's the right thing to do.

And there is no "do what you want, 'cause there's nothing when it's over" aspect to Buddhism. Quite the opposite, in fact. Buddhists, especially those who truely seek enlightenment, are very strict. The essence of those who "do what they want," particularly if what they want causes suffering, will return to this universe to suffer more. If they caused great suffering, they could very well be reincarnated in the Buddhist version of Hell (yes, many Buddhists believe in it - though, like everything else in Buddhism, it's not permanent/eternal). So, if you are lucky enough to be born a human (only humans can acheive enlightenment - not even the "gods" can do this) then it is in your best interest to at least try to reach Nirvana. Who knows what will happen to you if you don't.

Of course, if you desire enlightenment........

boxwine_in_hell

Good description of Buddhism....that's the dichotomy of Buddhism....you have to try for enlightenment but not desire enlightenment...it's a subtle yet all important difference.