The "sin" of homosexuality

RainDog

onelongsong wrote:

i don't see this so much as a sin issue. it's more a "look at me" issue. if i sit on my couch and smoke a joint; nobody cares. i'm left alone. if i go out in public and make statements that i'm a pot smoker and held 3 jobs and retired at 40; and tried to convince others to smoke pot; it would cause a problem. when people just live their lives; they obtain the most valuable right; the right to be left alone.

Wouldn't it be great if that joint you smoked was legal?

If people don't make any noise, nothing ever happens.

And now that authorities have that "no need to knock" rule - well, perhaps I'm being hyperbolic, but it might not be long before you lose that right to be left alone.

*Boy

NakedClown wrote:

I have an honest question - for the hardline right on this board. The question was inspired by the following quote in another hotly-debated religious thred:

Originally Posted by know1
My church had a sermon last week on being accepting of homosexuals. The point was that sin is no worse than anyone of our sins and that the church has failed by alienating them.

So here's my question - to those of you who choose to make the "gay issue" a hot button issue during election cycles and a matter of turning a group of people into a sort of "lower" society.

Why is this "sin" so much worse than the others and worthy of your venom?

Why don't we restrict free speech on people who use the lord's name in vain?

Why don't we ostracize people who decide to labor on Sundays?

Why don't try to limit the rights of adulterers?

Why aren't people who covet other people's properties hearded off and forced to lives as kind of a second society?

Please - only real responses - no "stupid fucking liberals" comments or anything like that...

this is why seperation of church and state is essential. you are completely hitting the nail on the head, it don't make sense! they are only pushing the issue because they know it disgusts the conservatives, its an easier target than finding people who curse and punish them.

NakedClown

decides2dream wrote:

thought i addressed this: b/c we as a society have grown more tolerant of it.
and in no way did i ever insinuate it is not hypocritial. we all are for certain issues, for me, this is not one of em.


btw - buddhists don't have a god, so poor example. go talk to hindus instead.

But do they not worship idols that would be considered sacrilegous to christians?

No need to defend yourself - I wasn't calling you or anyone else out. Posting questions that I'd like to see people answer.

surferdude

NakedClown wrote:

Yes, but would you (or this theoretical person) try to turn an adulterer into a "lower" member of our society through public action?

No, they've done that all by themselves. I'd drop that friend pretty quick if it was an ongoing thing.
I don't believe in gay marriage only because I think the government should get out of the marriage game. Government mingled church and state here and should leave marriage as an issue entirely up to churches. And if a church wants to marry homosexuals I have no problem with that. A marriage certificate would be purely ceremonial and have no legal value. The state should provide union certificates to any group of individuals wanting one and willing to take on the legal rights and responsibilities that would come with the certificate.

angelica

decides2dream wrote:

btw - buddhists don't have a god, so poor example. go talk to hindus instead.

My understanding is that it's not that buddhists don't believe in God, it's that they don't believe in quibbling over something that can't be proven. They are for personal understanding of life and enlightenment through one's self, experientially. That is how one decides--for themselves, on their own path.

decides2dream

*Boy wrote:

this is why seperation of church and state is essential. you are completely hitting the nail on the head, it don't make sense! they are only pushing the issue because they know it disgusts the conservatives, its an easier target than finding people who curse and punish them.

i love how we have all these seperate, but related threads recently...all that do seem to focus on this issue. it IS so important!

angelica wrote:

My understanding is that it's not that buddhists don't believe in God, it's that they don't believe in quibbling over something that can't be proven. They are for personal understanding of life and enlightenment through one's self, experientially. That is how one decides--for themselves, on their own path.

actually, no, they don't believe in a god, period.

PaperPlates

onelongsong wrote:

i don't see this so much as a sin issue. it's more a "look at me" issue. if i sit on my couch and smoke a joint; nobody cares. i'm left alone. if i go out in public and make statements that i'm a pot smoker and held 3 jobs and retired at 40; and tried to convince others to smoke pot; it would cause a problem. when people just live their lives; they obtain the most valuable right; the right to be left alone.

Well said. I have a cousin who is gay. Flaming gay. And he seems to talk about being gay every time I see him. Especially when he first came out. All he talked about is being gay. How hard it is, acceptance, etc. I dont present my sexuality for others awareness, why must so many gays? Homosexuality seems to be being force fed onto society just as much as there is resistance to it. There's a reason our homes have doors. Close em up, and live your life, everything would be much better.

RainDog

angelica wrote:

My understanding is that it's not that buddhists don't believe in God, it's that they don't believe in quibbling over something that can't be proven. They are for personal understanding of life and enlightenment through one's self, experientially. That is how one decides--for themselves, on their own path.

As far as I know, Buddhists believe that the existence of God is irrelevent. If you believe in God, fine; if you're an athiest, also good. If you think that praying to God will provide you any benefit, or that worshiping a God will garner you favor in the afterlife, then you're not a Buddhist.

NakedClown

onelongsong wrote:

i don't see this so much as a sin issue. it's more a "look at me" issue. if i sit on my couch and smoke a joint; nobody cares. i'm left alone. if i go out in public and make statements that i'm a pot smoker and held 3 jobs and retired at 40; and tried to convince others to smoke pot; it would cause a problem. when people just live their lives; they obtain the most valuable right; the right to be left alone.

I would argue that the "religious right" makes this more of an issue than homosexuals do.

I have many gay friends and relatives who could don't care about the right to get married. They wouldn't mind "civil unions" - but they are not banging doors down or threatening others to achieve it - and certainly not to force a church to let them get "married"...

But the strong religious right makes people believe that it is a "threat" - which has a strong ripple effect on society (press, elections, etc.)...

PaperPlates

NakedClown wrote:

I would argue that the "religious right" makes this more of an issue than homosexuals do.

I have many gay friends and relatives who could don't care about the right to get married. They wouldn't mind "civil unions" - but they are not banging doors down or threatening others to achieve it - and certainly not to force a church to let them get "married"...

But the strong religious right makes people believe that it is a "threat" - which has a strong ripple effect on society (press, elections, etc.)...

Damn that religious right!! Why is it I have yet to meet someone from the religious right?

NakedClown

surferdude wrote:

No, they've done that all by themselves. I'd drop that friend pretty quick if it was an ongoing thing.
I don't believe in gay marriage only because I think the government should get out of the marriage game. Government mingled church and state here and should leave marriage as an issue entirely up to churches. A marriage certificate would be purely ceremonial and have no legal value. The state should provide union certificates to any group of individuals wanting one and willing to take on the legal rights and responsibilities that would come with the certificate.

We have a winner!

Or - at least I should say - this is a line of thinking I agree with.

angelica

decides2dream wrote:

actually, no, they don't believe in a god, period.

It depends on how one defines God. There is nothing about buddhism that goes against my concept of God.
http://www.letusreason.org/Buddh1.htm

"it is more like pantheism, there is a impersonal force the void which is the ultimate."

When I hear "the ultimate" and "impersonal force", that is perfectly aligned to how I perceive God. Now you might be talking that they do not have the typical Christian conception of God.

NakedClown

PaperPlates wrote:

Damn that religious right!! Why is it I have yet to meet someone from the religious right?

Do you live under a rock?

No, in all seriousness, I know and see members of the "religious right" every day. It's not fair to lump them into a group, it's just a short, and concise thing to type.

angelica

RainDog wrote:

As far as I know, Buddhists believe that the existence of God is irrelevent. If you believe in God, fine; if you're an athiest, also good. If you think that praying to God will provide you any benefit, or that worshiping a God will garner you favor in the afterlife, then you're not a Buddhist.

I will just say for the record, that the sense of "light" in enlightenment, is the same light people meet with in the tunnel--the essence of life and all understanding.

PaperPlates

NakedClown wrote:

Do you live under a rock?

No, in all seriousness, I know and see members of the "religious right" every day. It's not fair to lump them into a group, it's just a short, and concise thing to type.

Do you live next to a church?

No I dont live under a rock. I live in a very heavily populated city, stuck between NYC and philly. I meet TONS of people almost daily in both my lines of work, and Ive yet to meet any truly extremist religious right zealots. Unless they simply arent running around 24/7 bitching about the sinners like some like to think.................................

PaperPlates

angelica wrote:

I will just say for the record, that the sense of "light" in enlightenment, is the same light people meet with in the tunnel--the essence of life and all understanding.

ohhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


ohhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

NakedClown

PaperPlates wrote:

Do you live next to a church?

No I dont live under a rock. I live in a very heavily populated city, stuck between NYC and philly. I meet TONS of people almost daily in both my lines of work, and Ive yet to meet any truly extremist religious right zealots. Unless they simply arent running around 24/7 bitching about the sinners like some like to think.................................

The smiley face was my way of saying "I'm just fucking with you..."

NakedClown

But to answer your question, I can point to one side of my family and say LIBERAL!, and I can point to the other side and say CONSERVATIVE/RELIGIOUS right.

Also - of my associates - I know most people's religious and political leanings...

So I assure you, this is not a group that I am conjuring up for entertainment purposes on this board.

PaperPlates

Nevermind wrote:

From someone who is usually sarcastic and wrote Bushleaguer and participated in VFC. What else would you have expected. If you are disappointed in a joke then stay away from comedy.

Understood without the explanation. No worries. I was simply responding.

NakedClown wrote:

But to answer your question, I can point to one side of my family and say LIBERAL!, and I can point to the other side and say CONSERVATIVE/RELIGIOUS right.

Also - of my associates - I know most people's religious and political leanings...

So I assure you, this is not a group that I am conjuring up for entertainment purposes on this board.

I didnt mean to imply you were. ? Simply that at least in my little corner of the world, this religious right doesnt hold a presence. Im sure they exist, as do wacko liberals, neo nazi's, etc. There's no way to stop the "pushing of religious ideals" upon us but to push your ideals just as hard. In a democracy, majority rules tho.

RainDog

angelica wrote:

I will just say for the record, that the sense of "light" in enlightenment, is the same light people meet with in the tunnel--the essence of life and all understanding.

To that, I would say it depends on whether or not the words "light" and "enlightenment" have the same phonetic root in the language spoken by the original Buddhists as it does in English.

Also, there are a number of denominations of Buddhism. Many Buddhists believe that Nirvana is not an afterlife at all, but is instead oblivion - non-existence.