The "sin" of homosexuality

angelica

"Having described the Buddhist objections to the overspecified inherently-existent God, it should be pointed out that Buddhism is not purposely atheistic, and certainly does not deny the existence of a God in the sense of that in which 'we live and move and have our being' "

"Omniscient - Yes, all that ever was, ever will be, ever could have been, and ever might still be - are included within God. Their actualisation as experiences depends upon the choices made by sentient beings.

Omnipotent. -Yes, in the sense that all potentials are present. The driving power to make anything that could logically occur actually occur ('breathe fire into the equations') is available.

Compassionate Yes, the samsaric universe, for all its apparent faults, provides a path for deluded primordial mind to achieve enlightenment. Thus from the viewpoint of an Awakened Being, the universe is a perfect ground for advanced beings to rescue other migrators and bring them to enlightenment.

Judgemental - No, all beings will eventually be saved (Bodhisatva vow)

God within time or outside time? Neither - time operates within God - She is pregnant with possibility, and time consists of a series of instances of actualisation of those possibilities."

http://www.geocities.com/scimah/God.htm

onelongsong

angelica wrote:

My understanding is that it's not that buddhists don't believe in God, it's that they don't believe in quibbling over something that can't be proven. They are for personal understanding of life and enlightenment through one's self, experientially. That is how one decides--for themselves, on their own path.

Jesus is in the buddist and hindu scriptures. and islam; jewish; etc. the basic teachings are that your being goes on even when your body dies. heaven is being without the restraints of the human body. different religions use different words. any more than that is mans words.

Puck78

PaperPlates wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals

I find it even ridicolous to have to prove scientifically that there's "nothing wrong" in homosexuality. It's a matter of freedom. Full stop.

NakedClown

PaperPlates wrote:

Im sure they exist, as do wacko liberals, neo nazi's, etc. There's no way to stop the "pushing of religious ideals" upon us but to push your ideals just as hard. In a democracy, majority rules tho.

There are extremists on all sides...

Byrnzie

NakedClown wrote:

So here's my question - to those of you who choose to make the "gay issue" a hot button issue during election cycles and a matter of turning a group of people into a sort of "lower" society.

Why is this "sin" so much worse than the others and worthy of your venom?

Why don't we restrict free speech on people who use the lord's name in vain?

Why don't we ostracize people who decide to labor on Sundays?

Why don't try to limit the rights of adulterers?

Why aren't people who covet other people's properties hearded off and forced to lives as kind of a second society?

Because the Church and State are, and should remain, separate.

decides2dream

angelica wrote:

It depends on how one defines God. There is nothing about buddhism that goes against my concept of God.
http://www.letusreason.org/Buddh1.htm

"it is more like pantheism, there is a impersonal force the void which is the ultimate."

When I hear "the ultimate" and "impersonal force", that is perfectly aligned to how I perceive God. Now you might be talking that they do not have the typical Christian conception of God.

ok.
that's all fine.
however, to everyone else and their ideas of 'a god' a buddhist does not believe in such. raindog gave an excellent explanation how they view it all and others' beliefs...far more tolerant an attitude...however, in the general sense of what the average joe would constitute as 'god' or a belief in god, the buddhists don't follow such. that's all i was getting at - and for simplicity's sake, far more clearer to say they do not believe in god(s). so to use them as an example of worshiping a 'different god'...or 'many gods'...a very poor example, nothing more. speak of wiccans, hindus, muslims, etc....those all have belief in 'a god' or 'gods/goddesses'.

Leatherman®

angelica wrote:

If you believe it is wrong for you, that is one thing. If you think you can make the judgment for God and say it's universally wrong for everyone, well then what about the plank in your own eye? Doesn't if affect your own vision? How do you know what you see with that there plank in your eye is actually real? How do you know it's not part of your lack as a human that is misinterpreting?

Is it universally wrong for a man to have sex with his 4 year old daughter?
Do you have a plank in your eye for thinking that is wrong?
How about his 18 year old daughter that claims to be in love with him?
They aren't hurting anyone.
Where do you draw the line on moral issues?
I happen to draw my moral guidelines from a place you don't.
Am I wrong for that?
Who's intolerant now?

angelica

"Do Buddhists believe in God?
Unlike other major religions, Buddhism doesn’t have the notion of a supreme God who created the world and who looks over it. However, the Buddha taught that there are six realms of existence – gods, humans, jealous gods, animals, ghosts and hell-beings. "

http://buddhism.about.com/od/courses/a/WhatBuddhism.htm

How many athiest on this board believe in other realms, particularly the one with the hell-beings?

These levels are also understood by those who raise their consciousness and travel other dimensions.

NakedClown

Byrnzie wrote:

Because the Church and State are, and should remain, separate.

Yes... but we all know that is kind of a pipe dream - right?

We're all somewhat agreeable on this.

Still waiting for an answer to the original question from someone who steadfastly believes that homosexuals should NOT have the same civil rights as heterosexuals.

decides2dream

onelongsong wrote:

Jesus is in the buddist and hindu scriptures. and islam; jewish; etc. the basic teachings are that your being goes on even when your body dies. heaven is being without the restraints of the human body. different religions use different words. any more than that is mans words.

many religions view jesus as a revered prophet. that really has no bearing on one's belief in a 'god' per se.

angelica wrote:

"Do Buddhists believe in God?
Unlike other major religions, Buddhism doesn’t have the notion of a supreme God who created the world and who looks over it. However, the Buddha taught that there are six realms of existence – gods, humans, jealous gods, animals, ghosts and hell-beings. "

http://buddhism.about.com/od/courses/a/WhatBuddhism.htm

How many athiest on this board believe in other realms, particularly the one with the hell-beings?

These levels are also understood by those who raise their consciousness and travel other dimensions.

wow, i stand corrected then, i have NEVER heard such, even amongst anything i have ever read about buddhists, or the few buddhists i do know. still, i will say it does not fit in with the notion of most people's beliefs in gods...and that sounds more like paganism, wiccans and hinuism for example, which i never affliated buddhism with before.

angelica

Leatherman® wrote:

Is it universally wrong for a man to have sex with his 4 year old daughter?
Do you have a plank in your eye for thinking that is wrong?
How about his 18 year old daughter that claims to be in love with him?
They aren't hurting anyone.
Where do you draw the line on moral issues?
I happen to draw my moral guidelines from a place you don't.
Am I wrong for that?
Who's intolerant now?

That's a lot of questions. I don't hear your answer, though. How do you know where I draw my moral guidelines?

I merely wonder how you factor in the plank in your own eye while judging others. I thought Jesus told us we cannot judge others, and that only God can truly judge.

surferdude

angelica wrote:

That's a lot of questions. I don't hear your answer, though. How do you know where I draw my moral guidelines?

I merely wonder how you factor in the plank in your own eye while judging others. I thought Jesus told us we cannot judge others, and that only God can truly judge.

It gets messy because Jesus was fully prepared to allow governments to make the civil rules we all have to live by. By those laws we judge others by their actions.

angelica

decides2dream wrote:

ok.
that's all fine.
however, to everyone else and their ideas of 'a god' a buddhist does not believe in such. raindog gave an excellent explanation how they view it all and others' beliefs...far more tolerant an attitude...however, in the general sense of what the average joe would constitute as 'god' or a belief in god, the buddhists don't follow such. that's all i was getting at - and for simplicity's sake, far more clearer to say they do not believe in god(s). so to use them as an example of worshiping a 'different god'...or 'many gods'...a very poor example, nothing more. speak of wiccans, hindus, muslims, etc....those all have belief in 'a god' or 'gods/goddesses'.

It's not clearer if we are distorting the facts--note the later quote I used, where buddha did mention gods and jealous gods. Maybe some people have had enlightened experiences, experienced the same gods, and developed them into the Christian God--afterall we know he's known to be jealous.

decides2dream

surferdude wrote:

It gets messy because Jesus was fully prepared to allow governments to make the civil rules we all have to live by. By those laws we judge others by their actions.

i like this.
it is humanity, and let's face it...men..who messed this all up over time. men had all the power on the churches and then decided what should be or should not...and yes, religion and state were intermingled for WAY too long.


angelica - see my post above..saw your oither post and retracted then. we all learn.
i wish someone who was actually buddhist was around to share, b/c i seriously have never read/heard such before. interesting.

RainDog

onelongsong wrote:

Jesus is in the buddist and hindu scriptures. and islam; jewish; etc. the basic teachings are that your being goes on even when your body dies. heaven is being without the restraints of the human body. different religions use different words. any more than that is mans words.

You're right about Jesus being in the Islamic and Jewish texts - but I don't think he's mentioned in any traditional Buddhist or Hindu scriptures. I've read passages by more modern Buddhists regarding the many similarities between the teachings of Jesus and Buddha - some going to far as to call Jesus a Bodhivista (enlightened one) - but not in what could be called "scripture." For one, Buddha predated Jesus by about 500 years. As for Hindu - well, that's going back even further.

Also, any positive mentions of Jesus by Buddhists (and I've encountered many - lotsa respect amongst the Buddhists) are still tempered with the belief that he is not the son of God.

angelica

surferdude wrote:

It gets messy because Jesus was fully prepared to allow governments to make the civil rules we all have to live by. By those laws we judge others by their actions.

Can you quote what Jesus specifically said?

onelongsong

angelica wrote:

"Having described the Buddhist objections to the overspecified inherently-existent God, it should be pointed out that Buddhism is not purposely atheistic, and certainly does not deny the existence of a God in the sense of that in which 'we live and move and have our being' "

"Omniscient - Yes, all that ever was, ever will be, ever could have been, and ever might still be - are included within God. Their actualisation as experiences depends upon the choices made by sentient beings.

Omnipotent. -Yes, in the sense that all potentials are present. The driving power to make anything that could logically occur actually occur ('breathe fire into the equations') is available.

Compassionate Yes, the samsaric universe, for all its apparent faults, provides a path for deluded primordial mind to achieve enlightenment. Thus from the viewpoint of an Awakened Being, the universe is a perfect ground for advanced beings to rescue other migrators and bring them to enlightenment.

Judgemental - No, all beings will eventually be saved (Bodhisatva vow)

God within time or outside time? Neither - time operates within God - She is pregnant with possibility, and time consists of a series of instances of actualisation of those possibilities."

http://www.geocities.com/scimah/God.htm

another great post angelica; but i'd like to add a twist. where does hell come in? the worst thing that could happen to me when i die is to be reborn onto this earth. and be reborn again and again until i reach the enlightenment. earth has all the reported attributes given to hell. if you want to see fire and brimstone; visit a volcano. hunger; pain; disease; etc; is all around us. i agree that all beings will be saved. but i also believe they will continue to be reborn onto earth until they get it right. thus; they remain in hell (earth) until redemption.

angelica

decides2dream wrote:

wow, i stand corrected then, i have NEVER heard such, even amongst anything i have ever read about buddhists, or the few buddhists i do know.

I apologise for my last post to you--I didn't see this one before I posted it.

angelica

onelongsong wrote:

another great post angelica; but i'd like to add a twist. where does hell come in? the worst thing that could happen to me when i die is to be reborn onto this earth. and be reborn again and again until i reach the enlightenment. earth has all the reported attributes given to hell. if you want to see fire and brimstone; visit a volcano. hunger; pain; disease; etc; is all around us. i agree that all beings will be saved. but i also believe they will continue to be reborn onto earth until they get it right. thus; they remain in hell (earth) until redemption.

Thank you.

I personally know God does not throw us into a hell. Our hell is our own judgment of our own deeds, when we become fully aware of the exact ramifications of our actions. I basically agree with your assessment of hell on earth--I've lived a bunch of it. About being reborn, I believe that concept is in human terms, and that beyond our human experience time does not exist. I personally believe I am God, you are God, each of us is God, incarnated in separation as everthing all at once--beyond time. Being unified with God, to me, is far, far, far beyond hell and we can take steps towards God or towards hell in each moment.

RainDog

angelica wrote:

"Do Buddhists believe in God?
Unlike other major religions, Buddhism doesn’t have the notion of a supreme God who created the world and who looks over it. However, the Buddha taught that there are six realms of existence – gods, humans, jealous gods, animals, ghosts and hell-beings. "

http://buddhism.about.com/od/courses/a/WhatBuddhism.htm

How many athiest on this board believe in other realms, particularly the one with the hell-beings?

These levels are also understood by those who raise their consciousness and travel other dimensions.

Most of this is coming from the Buddhist belief in different realms of existence (different dimensions, say) and the idea that entities inhabit these realms. Gods are more like "gods" (note the quotes) and are not regarded as creative beings. When Siddhartha Gautama (the OB - Original Buddha **wikka/skritch/wikka**) sought enlightenment through the Hindu belief system, he found it to be unhealthy and ultimately damaging (he spent many years as an ascetic) to follow these beings regarded as Gods. After attaining enlightenment, he never denied their existence; but he did deny them the place of Superior Beings - instead tending to regard them as supernatural frauds.

And, again, there are different denominations of Buddhism - some take a more supernatural path, others do not. For all of them, though, the existence of a Creator Being (the Alpha and Omega) is irrelevent - whether you believe in one or not.