Socialized Healthcare?

Abookamongstthemany

farfromglorified wrote:

Not really. What bothers me is that they use force to get it.



Not particularly, no. I don't judge things on whether or not my "life is going to drastically change". The Iraq War didn't drastically change my life, but I don't support it.

The war might not have drastically changed your life but it most definitely changed the lives of others. So there's a difference there.

farfromglorified

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

The war might not have drastically changed your life but it most definitely changed the lives of others. So there's a difference there.

There's no difference there. Your question was whether or not some people getting a "free-ride" would change my life. It wouldn't.

Abookamongstthemany

farfromglorified wrote:

There's no difference there. Your question was whether or not some people getting a "free-ride" would change my life. It wouldn't.

It was your war analogy I was disagreeing with not your answer to the question.

farfromglorified

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

It was your war analogy I was disagreeing with not your answer to the question.

What is there to disagree with? The Iraq War did not drastically change my life, neither would some people getting a "free ride". Despite the fact that neither changed my life drastically, I don't support either one. Would it make you happier if I changed "Iraq War" to "Medicare Prescription Drug Plan"?

Abookamongstthemany

farfromglorified wrote:

What is there to disagree with? The Iraq War did not drastically change my life, neither would some people getting a "free ride". Despite the fact that neither changed my life drastically, I don't support either one. Would it make you happier if I changed "Iraq War" to "Medicare Prescription Drug Plan"?

Ideas that bring good things to people, I see as worth it especially when it doesn't even alter my lifestyle...like UHC.

Ideas that bring a lot of bad things such as destruction and death to so many people like war, I don't see as worth it even though it doesn't alter my lifestyle too much.

So yeah, I'd be happier with the new example...but say whatever you wish. I was just saying they don't compare to me.

farfromglorified

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Ideas that bring good things to people, I see as worth it especially when it doesn't even alter my lifestyle...like UHC.

Ideas that bring a lot of bad things such as destruction and death to so many people like war, I don't see as worth it even though it doesn't alter my lifestyle too much.

So yeah, I'd be happier with the new example...but say whatever you wish. I was just saying they don't compare to me.

I wasn't saying that UHC and the Iraq War were the same thing. They're obviously not. In the limited context of your question, however, they were.

Regardless, consider it changed from "Iraq War" to "Medicare Prescription Drug Plan". I don't support any of these things, even though the direct effects on my life are negligible or non-drastic. I do not support them because they all carry a common thread: the use of force to impose some people's values on others. Whether or not the effects of this are, at any given place and point in time, good or bad, is irrelevant to me as the means are corrupt.

Abookamongstthemany

farfromglorified wrote:

I wasn't saying that UHC and the Iraq War were the same thing. They're obviously not. In the limited context of your question, however, they were.

Regardless, consider it changed from "Iraq War" to "Medicare Prescription Drug Plan". I don't support any of these things, even though the direct effects on my life are negligible or non-drastic. I do not support them because they all carry a common thread: the use of force to impose some people's values on others. Whether or not the effects of this are, at any given place and point in time, good or bad, is irrelevant to me as the means are corrupt.

fair enough

_

lazymoon13 wrote:

time the fuck out.

Okay, that's funny!

lazymoon13 wrote:

how do I have a "privileged" existence? I came from nothing. everything I have came from hard work and determination.

I obviously don't know anything about you or your past except what you've stated. I'm sure you've worked very hard. But just the simple fact that you had the resources to get a master's degree and to pay for your own healthcare for 10 years makes you privileged compared to those who haven't had the resources to do those things. Of course it takes hard work to get a master's - but it also takes a certain level of privilege. So making the assumption that those who haven't accomplished the same things as you just haven't worked hard enough is bogus. Many of them work hard but just don't have the resources you had to go with it. It's hard to pull yourself up by your bootstraps when you don't have any boots.

lazymoon13 wrote:

this is a loaded question.

I don't think asking one to define basic human rights is loaded. It's the fundamental question everyone in the world must answer. Once you know the answer, THEN you go about figuring out how to make it happen.

What about food? Shelter? Education? Justice? Basic human rights or not?

lazymoon13

scb wrote:

Okay, that's funny!

scb wrote:

I obviously don't know anything about you or your past except what you've stated. I'm sure you've worked very hard. But just the simple fact that you had the resources to get a master's degree and to pay for your own healthcare for 10 years makes you privileged compared to those who haven't had the resources to do those things. Of course it takes hard work to get a master's - but it also takes a certain level of privilege. So making the assumption that those who haven't accomplished the same things as you just haven't worked hard enough is bogus. Many of them work hard but just don't have the resources you had to go with it. It's hard to pull yourself up by your bootstraps when you don't have any boots.

I have the same access to resources as anyone else. it was a choice of mine to keep good credit, save money, and get a loan to pay for my schooling. I'm not privileged. and I'm not saying getting a masters is necessary to find a job with good health benefits. its just an example of my determination to better myself and not DEMAND handouts.

scb wrote:

I don't think asking one to define basic human rights is loaded. It's the fundamental question everyone in the world must answer. Once you know the answer, THEN you go about figuring out how to make it happen.

What about food? Shelter? Education? Justice? Basic human rights or not?

none of those are basic human rights. I can not demand that anyone feed me or shelter me or educate me. justice? sure I guess so. breathing is a human right. sleeping is a right.

tell me, how is healthcare, food, shelter, education human rights? for each of those someone has to provide a service in order for it to make it happen.

since you are being so giving, I demand you make me a sandwich everyday and have it delivered to my home. ITS MY RIGHT YOU DO SO.

see the problem?

_

farfromglorified wrote:

I do not support them because they all carry a common thread: the use of force to impose some people's values on others.

But isn't this what makes us a society? You know, the social contract and all that good stuff.

My value: Don't kill people.
Government: We'll use force to keep you from killing people.

You can't say everyone shares this value, and yet they are being forced to live by it. That's just one example, of course.

P.S. Thanks for showing me how to use italics.

_

lazymoon13 wrote:

I have the same access to resources as anyone else. it was a choice of mine to keep good credit, save money, and get a loan to pay for my schooling. I'm not privileged.

I disagree. Just being able to save money is a huge privilege that many people don't have. Just having time to go to school is a huge privilege that many don't have.

Take for example this woman I know: When I met her, she was pregnant with her 7th kid and her husband had just left her. All the kids were conceived in marriage. She had no job or experience in the workforce and only an elementary education. She was from a culture where the expectation of women is that you don't work or go to school, your job is to have kids for your husband, and you're not supposed to really leave the house or speak very much. This woman did not have the same access to resources that you had.

Before you say she should have known better than to have children with her husband, consider the woman I met yesterday: 20 years old. Has never been pregnant but is faced with the responsibility of caring for her sister's child because her sister died during childbirth. (Don't ask me where the kid's father is.) Works her ass off for $9/hour (which is actually better pay than many people earn). She doesn't have the spare money to save for college or the time to attend. This woman does not have the same access to resources that you had.

There are undoubtedly MANY people in the US that don't have the same access to resources that you have had - I guess you just don't know them. But just because you can't/won't see them doesn't mean they don't exist. I see them every day. Life is hard. It's much harder for some people than it's been for you and me.

lazymoon13 wrote:

none of those are basic human rights. I can not demand that anyone feed me or shelter me or educate me. justice? sure I guess so. breathing is a human right. sleeping is a right.

Really? So if I stop breathing or sleeping, may I then please see a doctor?

lazymoon13 wrote:

tell me, how is healthcare, food, shelter, education human rights? for each of those someone has to provide a service in order for it to make it happen.

We are all born into the same earth which contains the same resources. Seems then like we are born with a right to our share of those resources. But we have set up a world where one small group has claimed all the resources as their own and now says everyone else can't have any. They don't deserve any. If they don't already (when they are born) have the resources they need for survival then obviously they haven't worked hard enough. Obviously those who were born into ownership of the resources worked proportionately harder. We don't owe them anything - just because we took their share of the resources and their means of production, so what.

It seems like you are trying to suggest that everyone is born with a clean slate, into an equal situation. They should be, but obviously they're not. That's why not everyone has the same access to resources as you and you can't judge them by same yardstick with which you judge yourself. You got a head start in the race. If one starts from far enough behind, it's sometimes impossible to catch up.

I don't even know why there's any debate about this. The US agreed to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights way back in 1948. Article 25 clearly states that health care (and food, clothing, and housing) are basic human rights.

lazymoon13 wrote:

since you are being so giving, I demand you make me a sandwich everyday and have it delivered to my home. ITS MY RIGHT YOU DO SO.

see the problem?

No, I don't see the problem. If you needed a sandwich delivered to your home every day, I would gladly pay for it.

Dylan Stone

scb wrote:

No, I don't see the problem. If you needed a sandwich delivered to your home every day, I would gladly pay for it.

I don't understand why this is such a huge concept for some to grasp.

I really think there are people that have just truly never encountered people who are truly unempowered and underprivileged.

They have no idea what we are really even talking about....

Good job at trying to explain.

lazymoon13

scb wrote:

I disagree. Just being able to save money is a huge privilege that many people don't have.

why not? I saved money because I deprived myself of certain things that I easily could have afforded. I also choice not to have kids in my early years becuase I knew I couldnt afford them.

scb wrote:

Just having time to go to school is a huge privilege that many don't have.

there are 24 hrs in a day. I worked 10 hours a day and took night and online classes. me making time to make this happen is not a privilege.

scb wrote:

Take for example this woman I know: When I met her, she was pregnant with her 7th kid and her husband had just left her.

having 7 kids under any circumstances sounds irresponsible to me. sorry.

scb wrote:

All the kids were conceived in marriage. She had no job or experience in the workforce and only an elementary education. She was from a culture where the expectation of women is that you don't work or go to school, your job is to have kids for your husband, and you're not supposed to really leave the house or speak very much. This woman did not have the same access to resources that you had.

well she should have known better to have 7 kids.

scb wrote:

Before you say she should have known better than to have children with her husband, consider the woman I met yesterday: 20 years old. Has never been pregnant but is faced with the responsibility of caring for her sister's child because her sister died during childbirth. (Don't ask me where the kid's father is.) Works her ass off for $9/hour (which is actually better pay than many people earn). She doesn't have the spare money to save for college or the time to attend. This woman does not have the same access to resources that you had.

why not? if she has good credit she can get a loan like I did. she can take online classes. she can ask family to help?

scb wrote:

There are undoubtedly MANY people in the US that don't have the same access to resources that you have had - I guess you just don't know them.

why do you keep saying this? what access to resources did I have? I have a brain like everyone else. I made good choices that allowed me to be successful.

scb wrote:

Really? So if I stop breathing or sleeping, may I then please see a doctor?

if you pay for it, yes. or you can ask someone to help you. I'd be happy to. no one has a right to TAKE away your air or stop you from sleeping.

scb wrote:

It seems like you are trying to suggest that everyone is born with a clean slate, into an equal situation. They should be, but obviously they're not. That's why not everyone has the same access to resources as you and you can't judge them by same yardstick with which you judge yourself. You got a head start in the race. If one starts from far enough behind, it's sometimes impossible to catch up.

I'm not suggesting the government shouldn't help those who really need it. I'm all for it. I would support children healthcare, elderly, and for those with special needs. but we are talking about UHC.

scb wrote:

I don't even know why there's any debate about this. The US agreed to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights way back in 1948. Article 25 clearly states that health care (and food, clothing, and housing) are basic human rights.

you can force someone provide you with something.

scb wrote:

No, I don't see the problem. If you needed a sandwich delivered to your home every day, I would gladly pay for it.

I would do the same, granted I wasn't forced to. give me an option and I'll help out my fellow man whenever its needed.

lazymoon13

GTFLYGIRL wrote:

I don't understand why this is such a huge concept for some to grasp.

I really think there are people that have just truly never encountered people who are truly unempowered and underprivileged.

They have no idea what we are really even talking about....

Good job at trying to explain.

unempowered and underprivileged people should be helped, I agree. I never said otherwise.

lazymoon13

again, I'll use commy for example. he claims to pay no taxes, yet he is demanding I pay for his health insurance. why? can he not work? can he not better himself? does he lack determination, dedication, and the will to succeed? he posts on this board all the time. he comes across as an informed intelligent person. so whats stopping him from taking care of himself? who is he to demand I take care of him?

_

Haha! Now I don't feel so bad for having such a long post.

I just don't know how to help you understand that regardless of how little money, time, or other resources you had, there are others who have less - not enough to do what you have done. No matter how many things you deprived yourself of to get to where you are, there are people who can't possibly deprive themselves or their families of one more thing. No matter how many hours you worked, there are people who work more and have more responsibilites due to no choice of their own. Just the mere suggestion that the woman I spoke of should take an online course indicates to me that you're not undertanding what I'm talking about. Not everyone has the resources to take an online course. Where I used to live, many people didn't even have phones or electricity.

I won't even try to explain to you why it is a privilege for a woman to be able to decide how many children to have and when.

lazymoon13 wrote:

I would do the same, granted I wasn't forced to. give me an option and I'll help out my fellow man whenever its needed.

I'm here trying to tell you that it's needed.

You just said unempowered and underprivileged people should be helped. These are the people we're talking about.

Please agree to help out.

_

lazymoon13 wrote:

again, I'll use commy for example. he claims to pay no taxes, yet he is demanding I pay for his health insurance. why? can he not work? can he not better himself? does he lack determination, dedication, and the will to succeed? he posts on this board all the time. he comes across as an informed intelligent person. so whats stopping him from taking care of himself? who is he to demand I take care of him?

I think this post exemplifies the difference between us that won't allow us to agree. I don't know Commy, therefore I'm not about to assume I understand him and his situation. So I won't judge. I will only judge myself.

[BTW... do we know that Commy's a man? Just wondering.]

lazymoon13

scb wrote:

Haha! Now I don't feel so bad for having such a long post.

I just don't know how to help you understand that regardless of how little money, time, or other resources you had, there are others who have less - not enough to do what you have done. No matter how many things you deprived yourself of to get to where you are, there are people who can't possibly deprive themselves or their families of one more thing. No matter how many hours you worked, there are people who work more and have more responsibilites due to no choice of their own. Just the mere suggestion that the woman I spoke of should take an online course indicates to me that you're not undertanding what I'm talking about. Not everyone has the resources to take an online course. Where I used to live, many people didn't even have phones or electricity.

I won't even try to explain to you why it is a privilege for a woman to be able to decide how many children to have and when.

I'm here trying to tell you that it's needed.

You just said unempowered and underprivileged people should be helped. These are the people we're talking about.

Please agree to help out.

you dont seem to be listening. we are talking about UHC right?

lazymoon13

scb wrote:

I think this post exemplifies the difference between us that won't allow us to agree. I don't know Commy, therefore I'm not about to assume I understand him and his situation. So I won't judge. I will only judge myself.

[BTW... do we know that Commy's a man? Just wondering.]

I'm judging by his posts. he comes across as intelligent. he admited that he help a company produce 25 million dollars in profit. sounds to be that he has the ability to work and better himself. if this is all true, why should I pay for his healthcare? just because isnt a good enough answer.

(i dont know if he is a he or she, doesnt matter)

_

lazymoon13 wrote:

I'm judging by his posts. he comes across as intelligent. he admited that he help a company produce 25 million dollars in profit. sounds to be that he has the ability to work and better himself. if this is all true, why should I pay for his healthcare? just because isnt a good enough answer.

Just because he had the ability to work in the past doesn't mean he has the ability to work now or that his situation isn't different in some other way. Perhaps he doesn't feel the need to justify or explain himself or his personal life.

lazymoon13 wrote:

(i dont know if he is a he or she, doesnt matter)

It matters when I'm deciding what pronoun to use.

P.S. You aren't my grandfather, are you? I'm serious - for all I know you could be.