Do you believe healthcare is a basic human right? (Anyone know how to start a poll?)
If so, do whatever you have to do to make sure everyone has healthcare - no exceptions. (Yes, this will require learning to share resources.)
Once we can agree on our intention, we can then move forward to argue about the best way to make this happen. I feel like the primary problem right now is that we can't even agree on this intention - much less its implementation.
imho, they wouldn't be violating roe/wade because abortions would still be legal, just not free.
But if they say it's criminal for another entity (i.e. the state) to use their own funds to pay for them, that's making them illegal. Plus, if I pay for UHC through my taxes, my healthcare - including abortions - isn't free.
But if they say it's criminal for another entity (i.e. the state) to use their own funds to pay for them, that's making them illegal. Plus, if I pay for UHC through my taxes, my healthcare - including abortions - isn't free.
They wouldn't have to deem it "illegal"...I am sure they could find some way to hold the states hostage, but I do see your point.
They wouldn't have to deem it "illegal"...I am sure they could find some way to hold the states hostage, but I do see your point.
It sounds like what we're doing now with the Global Gag Rule, where we won't give money to any foreign clinic that even counsels about abortion. Although we let our goverment do that to people of other countries, I really don't think we'd allow it to happen to us. Plus, that rule is generally in effect only during Replublican administrations.
I'd be for a children's UNC plan. what I'm not for is people like commy who openly admit to not paying taxes and then turn around and ask me to pay for his healthcare. why should I?
I had a job many years back. I worked there for 10 years. great pay but they provided no health insurance. as I got older I realized I should find a job that offers those benefits. you know what I did? I worked my ass off and got my masters and was able to find a great employer who pays 100% of my healthcare. I didnt ask for a handout. I worked hard and made it happen for myself.
people are fucking lazy, thats what makes me sick.
Got yourself a masters. Well good for you. What if you were...for example...a young woman who grew up in inner city LA where only like 40% of the kids graduate HS as the school system is so fucked. And what if your IQ was 94? Then what would you do?
OH...Pull yourself up by your bootstraps, huh? Come on. What are her options? Is she lazy? What if she has two young children (aged 9 mos and 2 years?) and her husband walks out. She works wherever making $9 /hour with no...or little benefits. Many limited (or *borderline* limited as average IQ is 100) people know little of empowerment...so even if she does empower herslf enough to tell her employer *whatever* what are the chances of her drastically changing her life's course? It's possible but VERY difficult.
Her $9 an hour provides *income* and she works 60 hour weeks and works her ass of....but it's too much money to qualify for any of the governmentally sponsored programs currently available.
She pays $6 per hour in day care (which is really cheap and her kids may be getting sub par care...) to have her kids watched while she works...her remaining $3/hour is then taxed and at the end of the week she has a surplus of $120/week to pay for food and rent. WHERE THE HELL IS HER HEALTH CARE MONEY COMING FROM? Just pay for her kids? F her? Poor kids with the sick mom. So universal health care just for kids would be better than none...but what about this woman?????
Uhm.....Lazy bitch should work more than 60 hours a week. Or should she get her masters with an IQ of 94?
With the current system...she and her kids are without healthcare.
Got yourself a masters. Well good for you. What if you were...for example...a young woman who grew up in inner city LA where only like 40% of the kids graduate HS as the school system is so fucked. And what if your IQ was 94? Then what would you do?
OH...Pull yourself up by your bootstraps, huh? Come on. What are her options? Is she lazy? What if she has two young children (aged 9 mos and 2 years?) and her husband walks out. She works wherever making $9 /hour with no...or little benefits. Many limited people know little of empowerment...so even if she does empower herslf enough to tell her employer *whatever* what are the chances of her drastically changing her life's course? It's possible but VERY difficult.
Her $9 an hour provides *income* and she works 60 hour weeks and works her ass of....but it's too much money to qualify for any of the governmentally sponsored programs currently available.
She pays $6 per hour in day care (which is really cheap and her kids may be getting sub par care...) to have her kids watched while she works...her remaining $3/hour is then taxed and at the end of the week she has a surplus of $120/week to pay for food and rent. WHERE THE HELL IS HER HEALTH CARE MONEY COMING FROM? Just pay for her kids? F her? Poor kids with the sick mom. So universal health care just for kids would be better than none...but what about this woman?????
Uhm.....Lazy bitch should work more than 60 hours a week. Or should she get her masters with an IQ of 94?
With the current system...she and her kids are without healthcare.
Ahhhhh....America.
its called determination. doesnt matter what your IQ is or where you came from. and maybe its also a good idea not to have kids if you cant afford to take care of them. just a thought. that said, I would support a government healthcare program for children provided there were options for private care as well.
A country is democratic to the extent its people have meaningful participation in the decision making process.
We have no say in the decision making process. Between our willingness to hand over much of that power to the government and the government just flat out taking it we are left with little say in what is done. Until we regain that power it is utterly useless to try and implement any type of government run universal healthcare.
Also there are options out there to people who do not have employee healthcare. I am a freelancer so my employer does not offer me healthcare benefits. What I simply did was join a group of other freelancers, the Freelancers Union, and obtained affordable healthcare through them. This is not a formal union. Just freelancers from across the country coming together and forming an organization to provide it members with affordable healthcare.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
its called determination. doesnt matter what your IQ is or where you came from. and maybe its also a good idea not to have kids if you cant afford to take care of them. just a thought. that said, I would support a government healthcare program for children provided there were options for private care as well.
Not everyone who doesn't have healthcare is some lazy crack mother. There are many hard working families out there that do not have health benefits.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
its called determination. doesnt matter what your IQ is or where you came from. and maybe its also a good idea not to have kids if you cant afford to take care of them.
Oh please. She's not *by your standards* "determined" enough... so fuck her?!?!
She's NOT what used to be termed "the worthy poor??" So the hell with her. So sad for you...poor unempowered chick. Die. You aren't determined enough...Working a job that s a few dollars over minimum wage for like 60 hours a week. BE MORE DETERMINED!!!! Have the inner strength of lazymoon!!
And....*Maybe* she may have not had the kids had she had health care. Maybe she couldn't afford birth control at $25/month for pills and the hundreds of dollars it costs for the initial appt and follow ups to keep he prescriptions coming...even at Planned Parenthood. And if you've purchased them....condoms aren't cheap either...
And...as many women...the woman in my example had a man involved and then he walked out as many men do. Ahhh...Fuck her....and her kids.
Oh please. She's not *by your standards* "determined" enough... so fuck her?!?!
She's NOT what used to be termed "the worthy poor??" So the hell with her. So sad for you...poor unempowered chick. Die. You aren't determined enough...Working a job that s a few dollars over minimum wage for like 60 hours a week. BE MORE DETERMINED!!!! Have the inner strength of lazymoon!!
And....*Maybe* she may have not had the kids had she had health care. Maybe she couldn't afford birth control at $25/month for pills and the hundreds of dollars it costs for the initial appt and follow ups to keep he prescriptions coming...even at Planned Parenthood. And if you've purchased them....condoms aren't cheap either...
And...as many women...the woman in my example had a man involved and then he walked out as many men do. Ahhh...Fuck her....and her kids.
Clearly you don't see very far past yourself...
I don't know what to tell ya hunny. life is all about choices. not sure why I should pay for your bad ones.
I don't know what to tell ya hunny. life is all about choices. not sure why I should pay for your bad ones.
No offense but that is a pretty selfish outlook on life. I don't believe that the government should force us to help the less fortunate but we should definitely help them of our own accord.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
I don't know what to tell ya hunny. life is all about choices. not sure why I should pay for your bad ones.
Mine haven't been bad. I am not unempowered and I too have a masters degree.
I am just able to see past myself and see that there are others that are not as lucky as I have been. Luckily I can pay the exorbitant $800/month health insurance premiums that I have to pay as I have chosen to stay home with my toddler and go back to work part time. Luckily I have the financial resources to provide the gap in $.
Not everyone is as lucky as me. I see that. I know that I wasn't abused as a child. I was taught that I am smart and I am relatively mentally stable. I didn't grow up in foster care. I am lucky that I am intelligent and had access to a very good education.
Like I said...I am just able to see past myself...and I recognize that hard times can fall on any of us rather quickly.
I believe we all need to care for each other. I believe in a country as wealthy as ours there is no reason for so many people to be without their basic needs being met, while others have more money than they could spend in 23 lifetimes. Access to basic health care is not a crazy notion. I think it is my responsibility as a human to care about fellow humans. Not everyone feels that way ... Apparently.
Mine haven't been bad. I am not unempowered and I too have a masters degree.
I am just able to see past myself and see that there are others that are not as lucky as I have been. Luckily I can pay the exorbitant $800/month health insurance premiums that I have to pay as I have chosen to stay home with my toddler and go back to work part time. Luckily I have the financial resources to provide the gap in $.
Not everyone is as lucky as me. I see that. I know that I wasn't abused as a child. I was taught that I am smart and I am relatively mentally stable. I didn't grow up in foster care. I am lucky that I am intelligent and had access to a very good education.
Like I said...I am just able to see past myself...and I recognize that hard times can fall on any of us rather quickly.
I believe we all need to care for each other. I believe in a country as wealthy as ours there is no reason for so many people to be without their basic needs being met, while others have more money than they could spend in 23 lifetimes. Access to basic health care is not a crazy notion. I think it is my responsibility as a human to care about fellow humans. Not everyone feels that way ... Apparently.
see, my only concern about UHC is that the quality of care will fall. thats makes me passionate about fellow humans right? I support a system somewhere inbetween UHC and the current system. what I do NOT want is the dumbfuck government to have complete control of the system. and sadly, people are simply lazy. take commy for example, he doesnt pay taxes, yet demands he should get free healthcare. WHY?
I still see the main roadblock based upon "free-riders"...however for some people to imply that some people are lazy or not determined is a very narrow minded on their own society.
Look at the straight logic...there is not enough good high paying jobs/jobs with great benefits available for everyone...its not a matter of laziness or determination....its a simple fact that there is NO WAY if all 100% of working Americans were determined and not lazy that all could getgreat jobs with benefits...impossible...someone will always be left mopping the floors, flipping burgers, etc.
I feel many people here view people working crappy ass jobs as lazy...so narrow minded...there are hundreds of other social factors that put them there...and regardless they still pay taxes.....
I really do not understand where this fear of UHC comes from, from what I see here its that people are pissed to see their tax dollars helping someone...honestly regardless there will be free-loaders in every sort of culture...that is inevitable...however to assume that a huge chunk of your population is like that really shows a cynical view of your own country-men...which honestly is depressing....
Honestly what is the big fear...no one has answered my question I posted yesterday discussing what fear they have of the system.
Are you scared of waiting lines, scared the government will dictate who you can see, really what is it. It has to go beyond free-loaders, in my mind it must...but that is the same issue I see getting brought up here.
I still see the main roadblock based upon "free-riders"...however for some people to imply that some people are lazy or not determined is a very narrow minded on their own society.
Look at the straight logic...there is not enough good high paying jobs/jobs with great benefits available for everyone...its not a matter of laziness or determination....its a simple fact that there is NO WAY if all 100% of working Americans were determined and not lazy that all could getgreat jobs with benefits...impossible...someone will always be left mopping the floors, flipping burgers, etc.
I feel many people here view people working crappy ass jobs as lazy...so narrow minded...there are hundreds of other social factors that put them there...and regardless they still pay taxes.....
I really do not understand where this fear of UHC comes from, from what I see here its that people are pissed to see their tax dollars helping someone...honestly regardless there will be free-loaders in every sort of culture...that is inevitable...however to assume that a huge chunk of your population is like that really shows a cynical view of your own country-men...which honestly is depressing....
Honestly what is the big fear...no one has answered my question I posted yesterday discussing what fear they have of the system.
Are you scared of waiting lines, scared the government will dictate who you can see, really what is it. It has to go beyond free-loaders, in my mind it must...but that is the same issue I see getting brought up here.
My concern is not about having my tax dollars help other, but about the wasteful spending our government does. Just look at the Medicare prescription drug plan. I would have no problem with a universal healthcare plan if our government where not so inept and so prone to mismanaging social programs.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
I still see the main roadblock based upon "free-riders"...however for some people to imply that some people are lazy or not determined is a very narrow minded on their own society.
Look at the straight logic...there is not enough good high paying jobs/jobs with great benefits available for everyone...its not a matter of laziness or determination....its a simple fact that there is NO WAY if all 100% of working Americans were determined and not lazy that all could getgreat jobs with benefits...impossible...someone will always be left mopping the floors, flipping burgers, etc.
I feel many people here view people working crappy ass jobs as lazy...so narrow minded...there are hundreds of other social factors that put them there...and regardless they still pay taxes.....
I really do not understand where this fear of UHC comes from, from what I see here its that people are pissed to see their tax dollars helping someone...honestly regardless there will be free-loaders in every sort of culture...that is inevitable...however to assume that a huge chunk of your population is like that really shows your view of your own country-men...which honestly is depressing....
Honestly what is the big fear...no one has answered my question I posted yesterday discussing what fear they have of the system.
Are you scared of waiting lines, scared the government will dictate who you can see, really what is it. It has to go beyond free-loaders, in my mind it must...but that is same issue I see getting brought up here.
thats bullshit. there are plenty of jobs available that offer health benefits. flipping burgers? do the fast food chains of america not offer such benefits?
mcdonalds for example.
secondly, people can try to innovate, start a small business, get educated. there are many many options available. but when given the choice, many will choose to be lazy.
will 100% of americans be insured ever? no. for the same reasons their will never be 100% employment. some people simply choose not to work. fine with me. I like people to have to choices.
and yes, loss of quality of care is what I'm scared of. and I do not trust the government or think they are competent enough to run such a system.
My concern is not about having my tax dollars help other, but about the wasteful spending our government does. Just look at the Medicare prescription drug plan. I would have no problem with a universal healthcare plan if our government where not so inept and so prone to mismanaging social programs.
That is an issue that I think abook touched on that needs to be done by the people...our system up here has been around for decades and I believe is managed greatly...I hardly see any reference to the government at all like I said in a previous post....hell there is certainly no government interference in any matters of healthcare up here.
The "sketchiness" of your government in recent years would be worrisome and I agree with you, however that is something only the people will change.
That is an issue that I think abook touched on that needs to be done by the people...our system up here has been around for decades and I believe is managed greatly...I hardly see any reference to the government at all like I said in a previous post....hell there is certainly no government interference in any matters of healthcare up here.
The "sketchiness" of your government in recent years would be worrisome and I agree with you, however that is something only the people will change.
I can't comment on the Canadian system, so I have to take your word on it. As to our government, wasteful spending is as American as baseball and apple pie. It is up to the people to change that but unfortunetly the majority of the people in this country don't care enough to change it. The Dems and Reps do a hell of a good job of keeping any political parties or individuals who want to change the status quo in Washington.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
That is an issue that I think abook touched on that needs to be done by the people...our system up here has been around for decades and I believe is managed greatly...I hardly see any reference to the government at all like I said in a previous post....hell there is certainly no government interference in any matters of healthcare up here.
The "sketchiness" of your government in recent years would be worrisome and I agree with you, however that is something only the people will change.
but you are ignoring a MAJOR difference. its ALOT easier to manage a system of 30 million users vs 300 million users.
thats bullshit. there are plenty of jobs available that offer health benefits. flipping burgers? do the fast food chains of america not offer such benefits?
mcdonalds for example.
secondly, people can try to innovate, start a small business, get educated. there are many many options available. but when given the choice, many will choose to be lazy.
will 100% of americans be insured ever? no. for the same reasons their will never be 100% employment. some people simply choose not to work. fine with me. I like people to have to choices.
and yes, loss of quality of care is what I'm scared of. and I do not trust the government or think they are competent enough to run such a system.
So are you saying today that if we both suffered a heart attack that I would get "crappier" treatment than you....honestly....not trying to be rude....just really....
Maybe the issue is with your government...however that is something that is controlled by the people (or I thought was) therefore nothing changes until that message gets to those ranks.
I think you need to realize not everyone can be as determined as you....which could be the fact they are not as intelligent (goes back to horrible public education), growing up in broken homes (abusive or whatever).
One needs to look past themselves, for example I make great fucking money ($2000.00/month I am taxed at the very least) for a guy my age as a design engineer, I am opening my own clothing store in a couple months, I grew up in a great family, went to a great school...however not for one second did I ever believe that everyone else got this opportunity...not everyone can walk a nice path....there are obstacles that so many people have faced that could have caused me to "cave" down another road.
What I am trying to say everyone's path through life is different, not all are going to go my or your route that has given us success...many simply are hindered long ago by factors that you and I cannot conceive.....yeah there are options available but for some people that have had there life fucked up by someone/thing else these options do not come in perfect clarity as they do to you or I.
I choose to help these people by actively participating in my system and being a supporter of it (however I see problems as well as nothing is perfect...but nothing to the problems with the American system...consider where all the other countries have led their systems and their success). No system can be perfect but many are better.
If you guys are truely afraid of your government remember at the end of the day you put them there.
but you are ignoring a MAJOR difference. its ALOT easier to manage a system of 30 million users vs 300 million users.
How so....its all proportional....population has nothing to do with it...Canada breaks it down to the provinces.....that will drastically reduce your number...the system is hardly federal.....dicated heavily by the provinces up here......
I can't comment on the Canadian system, so I have to take your word on it. As to our government, wasteful spending is as American as baseball and apple pie. It is up to the people to change that but unfortunetly the majority of the people in this country don't care enough to change it. The Dems and Reps do a hell of a good job of keeping any political parties or individuals who want to change the status quo in Washington.
Man I hear you and that is very disappointing.....
I want to say something loud and clear...I do not believe my system is BEST....far fucking from it...but i believe it has the right intentions and is on the right path....look to Europe for the best models....a hybrid of public/private systems....I really want to make that clear I do not think my country's system is the best...I actively participate in debates with people how to improve the system....just wanted people here to know this.....do not to want to come across with an attitude that I am better than certain people...I just want to learn about the fears/obstacles facing Americans when dealing with this issue...I want to learn more than anything....and give examples of how the system is not what it is feared to be....
and sadly, people are simply lazy. take commy for example, he doesnt pay taxes, yet demands he should get free healthcare. WHY?
"Judge not lest ye be judged." "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." Ever heard these sayings? Please take them to heart.
You are truly coming across as if you have no understanding of (or desire to understand) the world outside your own privileged existence. In reality, however, you're just one car accident away from becoming one of those "lazy" "free-loaders".
Also, I assume Commy thinks s/he should get free healthcare if s/he doesn't have money for healthcare or (income) taxes right now - if this is even what s/he's saying - because s/he has paid taxes in the past and will probably do so in the future. During your 10-year employment with no health insurance, who paid for your healthcare? Probably Commy.
I'm curious about your answer to my earlier question: Do you believe health care is a basic human right?
So are you saying today that if we both suffered a heart attack that I would get "crappier" treatment than you....honestly....not trying to be rude....just really....
Maybe the issue is with your government...however that is something that is controlled by the people (or I thought was) therefore nothing changes until that message gets to those ranks.
I think you need to realize not everyone can be as determined as you....which could be the fact they are not as intelligent (goes back to horrible public education), growing up in broken homes (abusive or whatever).
One needs to look past themselves, for example I make great fucking money ($2000.00/month I am taxed at the very least) for a guy my age as a design engineer, I am opening my own clothing store in a couple months, I grew up in a great family, went to a great school...however not for one second did I ever believe that everyone else got this opportunity...not everyone can walk a nice path....there are obstacles that so many people have faced that could have caused me to "cave" down another road.
What I am trying to say everyone's path through life is different, not all are going to go my or your route that has given us success...many simply are hindered long ago by factors that you and I cannot conceive.....yeah there are options available but for some people that have had there life fucked up by someone/thing else these options do not come in perfect clarity as they do to you or I.
I choose to help these people by actively participating in my system and being a supporter of it (however I see problems as well as nothing is perfect...but nothing to the problems with the American system...consider where all the other countries have led their systems and their success). No system can be perfect but many are better.
If you guys are truely afraid of your government remember at the end of the day you put them there.
you are missing my point. first of all, stop comparing your system to a system that we could possibly have. maybe compare Canada to California. they are similar in size. like she said, size matters.
secondly, its not like I dont want to help people who truly need help. far from it. I'd support a system that one can maybe apply for special benefits if they lost their job, spouse death, below a certain income level, etc. and maybe healthcare coverage for children under a certain age. (and seniors, which is already in place)
IMO. what will NOT work is a blanket UHC system in the US for all. and you can scream all day that I should just look north and how perfect it is. thats irrelevant.
you are missing my point. first of all, stop comparing your system to a system that we could possibly have. maybe compare Canada to California. they are similar in size. like she said, size matters.
secondly, its not like I dont want to help people who truly need help. far from it. I'd support a system that one can maybe apply for special benefits if they lost their job, spouse death, below a certain income level, etc. and maybe healthcare coverage for children under a certain age. (and seniors, which is already in place)
IMO. what will NOT work is a blanket UHC system in the US for all. and you can scream all day that I should just look north and how perfect it is. thats irrelevant.
Where the hell did I say it was perfect? (Refer to post #144 for my statement before this post).
I will say I believe my system is headed in a better directionthan the American one...however lags compared to the countries (Norway, France, England, Sweden) and lags badly...but still a step in the right direction.....
My concern is not about having my tax dollars help other, but about the wasteful spending our government does. Just look at the Medicare prescription drug plan. I would have no problem with a universal healthcare plan if our government where not so inept and so prone to mismanaging social programs.
So that's a great starting point for working things out, right? I think many people feel the same way you do. Where can we go from here? How can we devise a universal healthcare plan that addresses these concerns?
"Judge not lest ye be judged." "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." Ever heard these sayings? Please take them to heart.
You are truly coming across as if you have no understanding of (or desire to understand) the world outside your own privileged existence. In reality, however, you're just one car accident away from becoming one of those "lazy" "free-loaders".
time the fuck out. how do I have a "privileged" existence? I came from nothing. everything I have came from hard work and determination.
Also, I assume Commy thinks s/he should get free healthcare if s/he doesn't have money for healthcare or (income) taxes right now - if this is even what s/he's saying - because s/he has paid taxes in the past and will probably do so in the future. During your 10-year employment with no health insurance, who paid for your healthcare? Probably Commy.
and who paid for my healthcare during my 10 year career with that company? I did. straight out of pocket. commy didnt contribute a dime, nor would I ask him to.
I want to say something loud and clear...I do not believe my system is BEST....far fucking from it...but i believe it has the right intentions and is on the right path....look to Europe for the best models....a hybrid of public/private systems....I really want to make that clear I do not think my country's system is the best...I actively participate in debates with people how to improve the system....just wanted people here to know this.....do not to want to come across with an attitude that I am better than certain people...I just want to learn about the fears/obstacles facing Americans when dealing with this issue...I want to learn more than anything....and give examples of how the system is not what it is feared to be....
I believe that a state by state system would probably work best in this country. The public definitely has a bit more of a handle on state level government than they do on the federal level. Even with this idea you would still encounter problem in some states where they spend money like a spoiled brat with their parent's credit card, my home state of New Jersey is a prime example of that. Even considerin g this the people can make more of an impact on state government.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
thats bullshit. there are plenty of jobs available that offer health benefits. flipping burgers? do the fast food chains of america not offer such benefits?
mcdonalds for example.
Most places say they offer benefits, but really they only offer them to full-time employees and make sure no one works over 39 hours per week so that way they don't qualify. Someone's got to do these jobs to maintain your and my American way of life. :rolleyes:
Comments
Do you believe healthcare is a basic human right? (Anyone know how to start a poll?)
If so, do whatever you have to do to make sure everyone has healthcare - no exceptions. (Yes, this will require learning to share resources.)
Once we can agree on our intention, we can then move forward to argue about the best way to make this happen. I feel like the primary problem right now is that we can't even agree on this intention - much less its implementation.
But if they say it's criminal for another entity (i.e. the state) to use their own funds to pay for them, that's making them illegal. Plus, if I pay for UHC through my taxes, my healthcare - including abortions - isn't free.
They wouldn't have to deem it "illegal"...I am sure they could find some way to hold the states hostage, but I do see your point.
It sounds like what we're doing now with the Global Gag Rule, where we won't give money to any foreign clinic that even counsels about abortion. Although we let our goverment do that to people of other countries, I really don't think we'd allow it to happen to us. Plus, that rule is generally in effect only during Replublican administrations.
Got yourself a masters. Well good for you. What if you were...for example...a young woman who grew up in inner city LA where only like 40% of the kids graduate HS as the school system is so fucked. And what if your IQ was 94? Then what would you do?
OH...Pull yourself up by your bootstraps, huh? Come on. What are her options? Is she lazy? What if she has two young children (aged 9 mos and 2 years?) and her husband walks out. She works wherever making $9 /hour with no...or little benefits. Many limited (or *borderline* limited as average IQ is 100) people know little of empowerment...so even if she does empower herslf enough to tell her employer *whatever* what are the chances of her drastically changing her life's course? It's possible but VERY difficult.
Her $9 an hour provides *income* and she works 60 hour weeks and works her ass of....but it's too much money to qualify for any of the governmentally sponsored programs currently available.
She pays $6 per hour in day care (which is really cheap and her kids may be getting sub par care...) to have her kids watched while she works...her remaining $3/hour is then taxed and at the end of the week she has a surplus of $120/week to pay for food and rent. WHERE THE HELL IS HER HEALTH CARE MONEY COMING FROM? Just pay for her kids? F her? Poor kids with the sick mom. So universal health care just for kids would be better than none...but what about this woman?????
Uhm.....Lazy bitch should work more than 60 hours a week. Or should she get her masters with an IQ of 94?
With the current system...she and her kids are without healthcare.
Ahhhhh....America.
its called determination. doesnt matter what your IQ is or where you came from. and maybe its also a good idea not to have kids if you cant afford to take care of them. just a thought. that said, I would support a government healthcare program for children provided there were options for private care as well.
We have no say in the decision making process. Between our willingness to hand over much of that power to the government and the government just flat out taking it we are left with little say in what is done. Until we regain that power it is utterly useless to try and implement any type of government run universal healthcare.
Also there are options out there to people who do not have employee healthcare. I am a freelancer so my employer does not offer me healthcare benefits. What I simply did was join a group of other freelancers, the Freelancers Union, and obtained affordable healthcare through them. This is not a formal union. Just freelancers from across the country coming together and forming an organization to provide it members with affordable healthcare.
Not everyone who doesn't have healthcare is some lazy crack mother. There are many hard working families out there that do not have health benefits.
Oh please. She's not *by your standards* "determined" enough... so fuck her?!?!
She's NOT what used to be termed "the worthy poor??" So the hell with her. So sad for you...poor unempowered chick. Die. You aren't determined enough...Working a job that s a few dollars over minimum wage for like 60 hours a week. BE MORE DETERMINED!!!! Have the inner strength of lazymoon!!
And....*Maybe* she may have not had the kids had she had health care. Maybe she couldn't afford birth control at $25/month for pills and the hundreds of dollars it costs for the initial appt and follow ups to keep he prescriptions coming...even at Planned Parenthood. And if you've purchased them....condoms aren't cheap either...
And...as many women...the woman in my example had a man involved and then he walked out as many men do. Ahhh...Fuck her....and her kids.
Clearly you don't see very far past yourself...
I don't know what to tell ya hunny. life is all about choices. not sure why I should pay for your bad ones.
No offense but that is a pretty selfish outlook on life. I don't believe that the government should force us to help the less fortunate but we should definitely help them of our own accord.
Mine haven't been bad. I am not unempowered and I too have a masters degree.
I am just able to see past myself and see that there are others that are not as lucky as I have been. Luckily I can pay the exorbitant $800/month health insurance premiums that I have to pay as I have chosen to stay home with my toddler and go back to work part time. Luckily I have the financial resources to provide the gap in $.
Not everyone is as lucky as me. I see that. I know that I wasn't abused as a child. I was taught that I am smart and I am relatively mentally stable. I didn't grow up in foster care. I am lucky that I am intelligent and had access to a very good education.
Like I said...I am just able to see past myself...and I recognize that hard times can fall on any of us rather quickly.
I believe we all need to care for each other. I believe in a country as wealthy as ours there is no reason for so many people to be without their basic needs being met, while others have more money than they could spend in 23 lifetimes. Access to basic health care is not a crazy notion. I think it is my responsibility as a human to care about fellow humans. Not everyone feels that way ... Apparently.
see, my only concern about UHC is that the quality of care will fall. thats makes me passionate about fellow humans right? I support a system somewhere inbetween UHC and the current system. what I do NOT want is the dumbfuck government to have complete control of the system. and sadly, people are simply lazy. take commy for example, he doesnt pay taxes, yet demands he should get free healthcare. WHY?
Look at the straight logic...there is not enough good high paying jobs/jobs with great benefits available for everyone...its not a matter of laziness or determination....its a simple fact that there is NO WAY if all 100% of working Americans were determined and not lazy that all could getgreat jobs with benefits...impossible...someone will always be left mopping the floors, flipping burgers, etc.
I feel many people here view people working crappy ass jobs as lazy...so narrow minded...there are hundreds of other social factors that put them there...and regardless they still pay taxes.....
I really do not understand where this fear of UHC comes from, from what I see here its that people are pissed to see their tax dollars helping someone...honestly regardless there will be free-loaders in every sort of culture...that is inevitable...however to assume that a huge chunk of your population is like that really shows a cynical view of your own country-men...which honestly is depressing....
Honestly what is the big fear...no one has answered my question I posted yesterday discussing what fear they have of the system.
Are you scared of waiting lines, scared the government will dictate who you can see, really what is it. It has to go beyond free-loaders, in my mind it must...but that is the same issue I see getting brought up here.
My concern is not about having my tax dollars help other, but about the wasteful spending our government does. Just look at the Medicare prescription drug plan. I would have no problem with a universal healthcare plan if our government where not so inept and so prone to mismanaging social programs.
thats bullshit. there are plenty of jobs available that offer health benefits. flipping burgers? do the fast food chains of america not offer such benefits?
mcdonalds for example.
http://www.mcdonalds.com/corp/career/employee_benefits/health_protecton.html
secondly, people can try to innovate, start a small business, get educated. there are many many options available. but when given the choice, many will choose to be lazy.
will 100% of americans be insured ever? no. for the same reasons their will never be 100% employment. some people simply choose not to work. fine with me. I like people to have to choices.
and yes, loss of quality of care is what I'm scared of. and I do not trust the government or think they are competent enough to run such a system.
That is an issue that I think abook touched on that needs to be done by the people...our system up here has been around for decades and I believe is managed greatly...I hardly see any reference to the government at all like I said in a previous post....hell there is certainly no government interference in any matters of healthcare up here.
The "sketchiness" of your government in recent years would be worrisome and I agree with you, however that is something only the people will change.
I can't comment on the Canadian system, so I have to take your word on it. As to our government, wasteful spending is as American as baseball and apple pie. It is up to the people to change that but unfortunetly the majority of the people in this country don't care enough to change it. The Dems and Reps do a hell of a good job of keeping any political parties or individuals who want to change the status quo in Washington.
but you are ignoring a MAJOR difference. its ALOT easier to manage a system of 30 million users vs 300 million users.
So are you saying today that if we both suffered a heart attack that I would get "crappier" treatment than you....honestly....not trying to be rude....just really....
Maybe the issue is with your government...however that is something that is controlled by the people (or I thought was) therefore nothing changes until that message gets to those ranks.
I think you need to realize not everyone can be as determined as you....which could be the fact they are not as intelligent (goes back to horrible public education), growing up in broken homes (abusive or whatever).
One needs to look past themselves, for example I make great fucking money ($2000.00/month I am taxed at the very least) for a guy my age as a design engineer, I am opening my own clothing store in a couple months, I grew up in a great family, went to a great school...however not for one second did I ever believe that everyone else got this opportunity...not everyone can walk a nice path....there are obstacles that so many people have faced that could have caused me to "cave" down another road.
What I am trying to say everyone's path through life is different, not all are going to go my or your route that has given us success...many simply are hindered long ago by factors that you and I cannot conceive.....yeah there are options available but for some people that have had there life fucked up by someone/thing else these options do not come in perfect clarity as they do to you or I.
I choose to help these people by actively participating in my system and being a supporter of it (however I see problems as well as nothing is perfect...but nothing to the problems with the American system...consider where all the other countries have led their systems and their success). No system can be perfect but many are better.
If you guys are truely afraid of your government remember at the end of the day you put them there.
How so....its all proportional....population has nothing to do with it...Canada breaks it down to the provinces.....that will drastically reduce your number...the system is hardly federal.....dicated heavily by the provinces up here......
Man I hear you and that is very disappointing.....
"Judge not lest ye be judged." "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." Ever heard these sayings? Please take them to heart.
You are truly coming across as if you have no understanding of (or desire to understand) the world outside your own privileged existence. In reality, however, you're just one car accident away from becoming one of those "lazy" "free-loaders".
Also, I assume Commy thinks s/he should get free healthcare if s/he doesn't have money for healthcare or (income) taxes right now - if this is even what s/he's saying - because s/he has paid taxes in the past and will probably do so in the future. During your 10-year employment with no health insurance, who paid for your healthcare? Probably Commy.
I'm curious about your answer to my earlier question: Do you believe health care is a basic human right?
you are missing my point. first of all, stop comparing your system to a system that we could possibly have. maybe compare Canada to California. they are similar in size. like she said, size matters.
secondly, its not like I dont want to help people who truly need help. far from it. I'd support a system that one can maybe apply for special benefits if they lost their job, spouse death, below a certain income level, etc. and maybe healthcare coverage for children under a certain age. (and seniors, which is already in place)
IMO. what will NOT work is a blanket UHC system in the US for all. and you can scream all day that I should just look north and how perfect it is. thats irrelevant.
Where the hell did I say it was perfect? (Refer to post #144 for my statement before this post).
I will say I believe my system is headed in a better directionthan the American one...however lags compared to the countries (Norway, France, England, Sweden) and lags badly...but still a step in the right direction.....
So that's a great starting point for working things out, right? I think many people feel the same way you do. Where can we go from here? How can we devise a universal healthcare plan that addresses these concerns?
time the fuck out. how do I have a "privileged" existence? I came from nothing. everything I have came from hard work and determination.
and who paid for my healthcare during my 10 year career with that company? I did. straight out of pocket. commy didnt contribute a dime, nor would I ask him to.
this is a loaded question. to have health care someone needs to provide a service of giving it to me.
so do I think its my right to force someone to provide me a service? no.
I believe that a state by state system would probably work best in this country. The public definitely has a bit more of a handle on state level government than they do on the federal level. Even with this idea you would still encounter problem in some states where they spend money like a spoiled brat with their parent's credit card, my home state of New Jersey is a prime example of that. Even considerin g this the people can make more of an impact on state government.
Most places say they offer benefits, but really they only offer them to full-time employees and make sure no one works over 39 hours per week so that way they don't qualify. Someone's got to do these jobs to maintain your and my American way of life. :rolleyes: