Another question for many of you, I live in a country with UHC (and will admit there are problems, to say there is none is foolish), what are the negatives you hear about this type of system.
Because what drives me nuts is that people throw out fears (some valid, most not) about a system of this nature, yet they have NEVER been exposed or lived in this structure. But yet they come across as experts on the field.
I would really like to expand this conversation to discuss what some of opponents of UHC fear about it. Feel free to expand on why you feel that and what justification you have to feel this way.
I did not mean to imply that. and I am benefiting from tax dollars atm.
ok so i'm very confused. you said u "made a company" and something about 12-13 million for 2 years. break it down for me.
and also. why is it fair for you to take healthcare service without paying into the system? why should others (like myself) be obligated to pay for your care?
Just my thoughts on the matter......................
I've never understood why America's outstanding talents in so many other market forces are so dismally incapable of fixing our medical system as it exists now.
I believe it comes down to our expectation. For the last 30 years, health-care costs have been rising, what, 6 percent to 8 percent a year, more than double the inflation rate in the rest of the economy, because demand keeps outstripping supply.
As people's real income rises, they expect more medical care. Our society is aging, so people need more care and with new technologies treating formerly intractable conditions, people want more care.
In practice, almost everyone, insured or not, has access to health care, especially in emergencies. (By law, an ER in the US cannot turn away a sick patient.) Insurance affects how much people actually use health services.
The access of the uninsured involves inconveniences and costs that encourage them to 'underconsume' medical services, sometimes with grim results. By contrast, some people with insurance often have such broad access that many 'overconsume' those services. They want a 1000 dollar MRI for a sprained Achilles tendon or rotator cuff. These consumption patterns drive the price increases that ultimately shrink insurance coverage.
As a society we determine how much health care we want . Unfortunately, our desires have no relation to what we would spend. This is what makes us different from socialized medicine. The current system has no balances.
Our health care insurance system is broken and other countries do get more bang for their buck when it comes to medicine . The first step is to admit our health care system is in shambles and needs fixing, but some people still have their heads stuck in the sand.
Like a lot of folks, I favor a national health insurance (Heck we already have it for the elderly and the poor in the form of Medicaid and Medicare, oh and the VA system) and tort reform so physicians can go back to practicing medicine, not legal medicine (ie: overordering tests to cover their butts) in addition, any real medicine reform (whether it is national health insurance or otherwise) we also need to be talking about making medical education cheaper, (so doctors aren't saddled with huge debts), tort reform so doctors don't have to garner a certain wage just to pay malpractice premiums etc.
You know, the bulk of clinic & hospital employees are not medical professionals, they are folks that deal with the morass of insurances and and their different rules, full time coders, full time medicare insurance billers, full time medicaid billers, full time collections filers, etc. Employees that check in & check out people and have to figure out if they can run their blood work in house, or send to a reference lab. Can they do a treadmill test in house or do they have to send them to the hospital? Can they do a skin biopsy or do they have to send to derm etc. etc. One national insurance would save them the expense of hiring so many personnel who need health insurance, dental, retirement planning, workman's comp, disability, unemployment tax etc.
Besides, there is truly no such thing as Universal Health care system that does not involve a healthy private paying sector where if you have the money, you can purchase the type of health care you want. In Britain, there is a healthy private sector that employs a bulk of the health care workers under Britain's current health care system.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
ok so i'm very confused. you said u "made a company" and something about 12-13 million for 2 years. break it down for me.
and also. why is it fair for you to take healthcare service without paying into the system? why should others (like myself) be obligated to pay for your care?
From my work a company made $3 million a year, and later it was closer to $13 million. That's all I was trying to convey.
As it is my personal life has no bearing on the subject, so that's as far as I can take it.
no, in the US its like the gov't taking over an apple field from a neighbor and then charging the hungry citizens to eat, while an elite few make a profit.
Sometimes, it absolutely is! But what you're talking about is that people should get apples without an apple tree, and that's just as bad, if not worse.
Just my thoughts on the matter......................
I've never understood why America's outstanding talents in so many other market forces are so dismally incapable of fixing our medical system as it exists now.
I believe it comes down to our expectation. For the last 30 years, health-care costs have been rising, what, 6 percent to 8 percent a year, more than double the inflation rate in the rest of the economy, because demand keeps outstripping supply.
As people's real income rises, they expect more medical care. Our society is aging, so people need more care and with new technologies treating formerly intractable conditions, people want more care.
In practice, almost everyone, insured or not, has access to health care, especially in emergencies. (By law, an ER in the US cannot turn away a sick patient.) Insurance affects how much people actually use health services.
The access of the uninsured involves inconveniences and costs that encourage them to 'underconsume' medical services, sometimes with grim results. By contrast, some people with insurance often have such broad access that many 'overconsume' those services. They want a 1000 dollar MRI for a sprained Achilles tendon or rotator cuff. These consumption patterns drive the price increases that ultimately shrink insurance coverage.
As a society we determine how much health care we want . Unfortunately, our desires have no relation to what we would spend. This is what makes us different from socialized medicine. The current system has no balances.
Our health care insurance system is broken and other countries do get more bang for their buck when it comes to medicine . The first step is to admit our health care system is in shambles and needs fixing, but some people still have their heads stuck in the sand.
Like a lot of folks, I favor a national health insurance (Heck we already have it for the elderly and the poor in the form of Medicaid and Medicare, oh and the VA system) and tort reform so physicians can go back to practicing medicine, not legal medicine (ie: overordering tests to cover their butts) in addition, any real medicine reform (whether it is national health insurance or otherwise) we also need to be talking about making medical education cheaper, (so doctors aren't saddled with huge debts), tort reform so doctors don't have to garner a certain wage just to pay malpractice premiums etc.
You know, the bulk of clinic & hospital employees are not medical professionals, they are folks that deal with the morass of insurances and and their different rules, full time coders, full time medicare insurance billers, full time medicaid billers, full time collections filers, etc. Employees that check in & check out people and have to figure out if they can run their blood work in house, or send to a reference lab. Can they do a treadmill test in house or do they have to send them to the hospital? Can they do a skin biopsy or do they have to send to derm etc. etc. One national insurance would save them the expense of hiring so many personnel who need health insurance, dental, retirement planning, workman's comp, disability, unemployment tax etc.
Besides, there is truly no such thing as Universal Health care system that does not involve a healthy private paying sector where if you have the money, you can purchase the type of health care you want. In Britain, there is a healthy private sector that employs a bulk of the health care workers under Britain's current health care system.
If UHC is a federally mandated system paid for out of the income tax without any copays, about 30%-40% would be getting a "free ride".
I believe I know the answer to this question, but do you think children that attend public schools are getting a 'free ride'? Do you see a difference between public schools and a national health care system?
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
ok so you didnt make millions, your company did. and you dont pay taxes now? so what confuses me is why you think I should pay for your healthcare.
I asked the same question of ffg.......do you think folks that go to public schools are getting a 'free ride'? Your tax dollars are paying for that system, whether or not you utilize it.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
I asked the same question of ffg.......do you think folks that go to public schools are getting a 'free ride'? Your tax dollars are paying for that system, whether or not you utilize it.
society benefits as a whole from its people being educated. paying taxes that go toward things like schools benefits everyone. its a measure of utility.
society benefits as a whole from its people being educated. paying taxes that go toward things like schools benefits everyone. its a measure of utility.
Does society benefit then from people being alive?
society benefits as a whole from its people being educated. paying taxes that go toward things like schools benefits everyone. its a measure of utility.
Well, I agree. I'm just curious whether those that are opposed to a NHC are also opposed to public schooling.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Does society benefit then from people being alive?
if the people are in turn contributing back to society, then yes.
edit: and contributing doesn't necessarily mean as a member of the workforce and paying taxes (although that is one way). there is a utility factor in volunteering, helping those less fortunate, etc.
I can not understand for the life of me why some people would want our incredibly inept and mismanaged government to handle something as important as healthcare. These are the same people who brought us the Medicare prescription drug plan. Why on God's green earth would you want them to be responsible for providing your medical needs.
As I stated in an earlier post, I would love nothing more than to see every man, woman and child have healthcare coverage in this country but I sure as hell do not want our government anywhere near it.
It makes me laugh because some of you sit on this message board and say every day how much control our government has over us. Or how much they have trampled over our liberties, but in the next breath you want to hand even more control and authority over to them.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
I can not understand for the life of me why some people would want our incredibly inept and mismanaged government to handle something as important as healthcare. These are the same people who brought us the Medicare prescription drug plan. Why on God's green earth would you want them to be responsible for providing your medical needs.
As I stated in an earlier post, I would love nothing more than to see every man, woman and child have healthcare coverage in this country but I sure as hell do not want our government anywhere near it.
It makes me laugh because some of you sit on this message board and say every day how much control our government has over us. Or how much they have trampled over our liberties, but in the next breath you want to hand even more control and authority over to them.
It's funny because with our UHC I hardly see any interference from the government...I have the choice to visit any doctor I want to (I do not need to abide by a plan that dictates who I see), I wait in line big freaking deal (if it was serious I would see someone immediatly...I have been on both sides of this coin).
As a Canadian I never see any government involvement other than the little piece of plastic (or paper for us in Alberta) that shows the provinical seal.
For our system to improve I wish we would expand our medical colleges to provide more doctors (way too many brilliant people are turned away each year) for the people.
But with your current government I totally understand why UHC may scare you, but honestly its a great thing why the hell are Canadians so proud of it (well there is very tiny minority that is not) and Tommy Douglas is a national hero. It is actually an issue in Canada where Liberals/Conservatives/Everything else share a common bond, the disagreements revolve on how to improve it.
I make more than the average Canadian, by a lot, I pay a lot of taxes but I do not view it as paying for free-loaders. I take pride in helping my country-men who are not as fortunate to have gained as good as job as me. Sure they constribute less to the tax pool but they work (come on unemployment is so low right now up here). To me this attitude is what separates Canadians from Americans on the matter. Hence why Canada may appear to be more "socialist". I rather my taxes be directed at helping other people in medical ways than many other wasterful programs.
I can not understand for the life of me why some people would want our incredibly inept and mismanaged government to handle something as important as healthcare. These are the same people who brought us the Medicare prescription drug plan. Why on God's green earth would you want them to be responsible for providing your medical needs.
As I stated in an earlier post, I would love nothing more than to see every man, woman and child have healthcare coverage in this country but I sure as hell do not want our government anywhere near it.
It makes me laugh because some of you sit on this message board and say every day how much control our government has over us. Or how much they have trampled over our liberties, but in the next breath you want to hand even more control and authority over to them.
A country is democratic to the extent its people have meaningful participation in the decision making process.
I stated this earlier, but it seems that market forces are dismally incapable of fixing our medical system as it exists now. Trust me, I am aware of some of the pitfalls of gov't managed health care, I work for the VA. What would be your solution? Also, a NHC system would probably be 'modeled' from the VA system, not Medicare or Medicaid.
I also said this earlier, there is really no such thing as a Universal Health care system that does not involve a private paying sector where if you have the money, you can purchase the type of health care you want. I used Britain as an example. The private sector employs a bulk of the health care workers there under their current NHC system
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
I can not understand for the life of me why some people would want our incredibly inept and mismanaged government to handle something as important as healthcare. These are the same people who brought us the Medicare prescription drug plan. Why on God's green earth would you want them to be responsible for providing your medical needs.
As I stated in an earlier post, I would love nothing more than to see every man, woman and child have healthcare coverage in this country but I sure as hell do not want our government anywhere near it.
It makes me laugh because some of you sit on this message board and say every day how much control our government has over us. Or how much they have trampled over our liberties, but in the next breath you want to hand even more control and authority over to them.
No matter what the U.S. govt tries to do, it is always inefficient. I could never imagine a program where you just show up and get healthcare.
I would be scared to see how low of a percentage of money allocated to certain programs actually gets spent on the program, as opposed to the money that gets spent on the administration of the program.
No matter what the U.S. govt tries to do, it is always inefficient. I could never imagine a program where you just show up and get healthcare.
I would be scared to see how low of a percentage of money allocated to certain programs actually gets spent on the program, as opposed to the money that gets spent on the administration of the program.
Funny this is I do it at least twice a year....however I have no idea the intention of your post...sarcastic, mocking current officials, etc.
No matter what the U.S. govt tries to do, it is always inefficient. I could never imagine a program where you just show up and get healthcare.
I would be scared to see how low of a percentage of money allocated to certain programs actually gets spent on the program, as opposed to the money that gets spent on the administration of the program.
Why shouldn't you be able to "show up" and get health care? This about human life. We have the resouces to do this.
Why shouldn't you be able to "show up" and get health care? This about human life. We have the resouces to do this.
I agree that it is about human life, and everyone deserves good care, but think of how unorganized it seems anytime you go to a government office? Have you every sought care at a county hospital? Its a madhouse.
We need to overhaul our govt before we undertake such a huge program.
if the people are in turn contributing back to society, then yes.
edit: and contributing doesn't necessarily mean as a member of the workforce and paying taxes (although that is one way). there is a utility factor in volunteering, helping those less fortunate, etc.
So there is a catch to life. given the current societal structure. That's criminal.
Comments
Because what drives me nuts is that people throw out fears (some valid, most not) about a system of this nature, yet they have NEVER been exposed or lived in this structure. But yet they come across as experts on the field.
I would really like to expand this conversation to discuss what some of opponents of UHC fear about it. Feel free to expand on why you feel that and what justification you have to feel this way.
ok so i'm very confused. you said u "made a company" and something about 12-13 million for 2 years. break it down for me.
and also. why is it fair for you to take healthcare service without paying into the system? why should others (like myself) be obligated to pay for your care?
I've never understood why America's outstanding talents in so many other market forces are so dismally incapable of fixing our medical system as it exists now.
I believe it comes down to our expectation. For the last 30 years, health-care costs have been rising, what, 6 percent to 8 percent a year, more than double the inflation rate in the rest of the economy, because demand keeps outstripping supply.
As people's real income rises, they expect more medical care. Our society is aging, so people need more care and with new technologies treating formerly intractable conditions, people want more care.
In practice, almost everyone, insured or not, has access to health care, especially in emergencies. (By law, an ER in the US cannot turn away a sick patient.) Insurance affects how much people actually use health services.
The access of the uninsured involves inconveniences and costs that encourage them to 'underconsume' medical services, sometimes with grim results. By contrast, some people with insurance often have such broad access that many 'overconsume' those services. They want a 1000 dollar MRI for a sprained Achilles tendon or rotator cuff. These consumption patterns drive the price increases that ultimately shrink insurance coverage.
As a society we determine how much health care we want . Unfortunately, our desires have no relation to what we would spend. This is what makes us different from socialized medicine. The current system has no balances.
Our health care insurance system is broken and other countries do get more bang for their buck when it comes to medicine . The first step is to admit our health care system is in shambles and needs fixing, but some people still have their heads stuck in the sand.
Like a lot of folks, I favor a national health insurance (Heck we already have it for the elderly and the poor in the form of Medicaid and Medicare, oh and the VA system) and tort reform so physicians can go back to practicing medicine, not legal medicine (ie: overordering tests to cover their butts) in addition, any real medicine reform (whether it is national health insurance or otherwise) we also need to be talking about making medical education cheaper, (so doctors aren't saddled with huge debts), tort reform so doctors don't have to garner a certain wage just to pay malpractice premiums etc.
You know, the bulk of clinic & hospital employees are not medical professionals, they are folks that deal with the morass of insurances and and their different rules, full time coders, full time medicare insurance billers, full time medicaid billers, full time collections filers, etc. Employees that check in & check out people and have to figure out if they can run their blood work in house, or send to a reference lab. Can they do a treadmill test in house or do they have to send them to the hospital? Can they do a skin biopsy or do they have to send to derm etc. etc. One national insurance would save them the expense of hiring so many personnel who need health insurance, dental, retirement planning, workman's comp, disability, unemployment tax etc.
Besides, there is truly no such thing as Universal Health care system that does not involve a healthy private paying sector where if you have the money, you can purchase the type of health care you want. In Britain, there is a healthy private sector that employs a bulk of the health care workers under Britain's current health care system.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
As it is my personal life has no bearing on the subject, so that's as far as I can take it.
If UHC is a federally mandated system paid for out of the income tax without any copays, about 30%-40% would be getting a "free ride".
Sometimes, it absolutely is! But what you're talking about is that people should get apples without an apple tree, and that's just as bad, if not worse.
Nice post.
Does it bother you that they are getting a 'free ride'? Is your life going to drastically change now that they have easier access to medical care?
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I believe I know the answer to this question, but do you think children that attend public schools are getting a 'free ride'? Do you see a difference between public schools and a national health care system?
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Really? Well, thank you..........
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
ok so you didnt make millions, your company did. and you dont pay taxes now? so what confuses me is why you think I should pay for your healthcare.
I asked the same question of ffg.......do you think folks that go to public schools are getting a 'free ride'? Your tax dollars are paying for that system, whether or not you utilize it.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
society benefits as a whole from its people being educated. paying taxes that go toward things like schools benefits everyone. its a measure of utility.
Well, I agree. I'm just curious whether those that are opposed to a NHC are also opposed to public schooling.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
if the people are in turn contributing back to society, then yes.
edit: and contributing doesn't necessarily mean as a member of the workforce and paying taxes (although that is one way). there is a utility factor in volunteering, helping those less fortunate, etc.
i'm not opposed to NHC so i guess i won't comment.
As I stated in an earlier post, I would love nothing more than to see every man, woman and child have healthcare coverage in this country but I sure as hell do not want our government anywhere near it.
It makes me laugh because some of you sit on this message board and say every day how much control our government has over us. Or how much they have trampled over our liberties, but in the next breath you want to hand even more control and authority over to them.
It's funny because with our UHC I hardly see any interference from the government...I have the choice to visit any doctor I want to (I do not need to abide by a plan that dictates who I see), I wait in line big freaking deal (if it was serious I would see someone immediatly...I have been on both sides of this coin).
As a Canadian I never see any government involvement other than the little piece of plastic (or paper for us in Alberta) that shows the provinical seal.
For our system to improve I wish we would expand our medical colleges to provide more doctors (way too many brilliant people are turned away each year) for the people.
But with your current government I totally understand why UHC may scare you, but honestly its a great thing why the hell are Canadians so proud of it (well there is very tiny minority that is not) and Tommy Douglas is a national hero. It is actually an issue in Canada where Liberals/Conservatives/Everything else share a common bond, the disagreements revolve on how to improve it.
I make more than the average Canadian, by a lot, I pay a lot of taxes but I do not view it as paying for free-loaders. I take pride in helping my country-men who are not as fortunate to have gained as good as job as me. Sure they constribute less to the tax pool but they work (come on unemployment is so low right now up here). To me this attitude is what separates Canadians from Americans on the matter. Hence why Canada may appear to be more "socialist". I rather my taxes be directed at helping other people in medical ways than many other wasterful programs.
I also said this earlier, there is really no such thing as a Universal Health care system that does not involve a private paying sector where if you have the money, you can purchase the type of health care you want. I used Britain as an example. The private sector employs a bulk of the health care workers there under their current NHC system
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
No matter what the U.S. govt tries to do, it is always inefficient. I could never imagine a program where you just show up and get healthcare.
I would be scared to see how low of a percentage of money allocated to certain programs actually gets spent on the program, as opposed to the money that gets spent on the administration of the program.
Funny this is I do it at least twice a year....however I have no idea the intention of your post...sarcastic, mocking current officials, etc.
I am pointing out the our govt is inefficient, so sustaining a proper level of healthcare for everyone would be very costly.
Okay.
I agree that it is about human life, and everyone deserves good care, but think of how unorganized it seems anytime you go to a government office? Have you every sought care at a county hospital? Its a madhouse.
We need to overhaul our govt before we undertake such a huge program.