Hezbollah started this

NCfan

Eva7 wrote:

what would you teach them instead? that violence is good? that this is the world, and there's nothing you can do? this is the world you want to give to your children? because what is at stake here is that those generations won't ever come. humans have always been violent and always made wars, but they never had the powerful destruction weapons we have now, weapons that are able to cancel those future generations in one second. and we should have learnt those lessons of history by now. so, is this the beautiful race of humans that everybody want to reproduce on this earth? and is this what we want our children to risk? to have no future and being part of such horrible self-destructive humankind?? (sorry, I should say YOUR children, since I am not gonna have, not until there is a sign that this world will have a future).

I would teach future generations that it is an unfair world that we live in. That we as humans can try to make it as equal as we can through society and government laws, but in the end it will never be - so don't expect it to be.

I would teach them that this is ultimately a tragic, not a thearaputic world that we live in. And so we must live our lives in accordance...

Trying to teach kids that violence is not the way to handle a conflict is like trying to preach abstinence to a bunch of teenagers. Sure, it would be a lot better if we didn't use violence to solve problems or if kids weren't running around having tons of young, premicous sex - but that is never going to happen. The true way to handle these problems is to understand human nature....

Don't tell kids drugs are bad, never do them, they are evil. Instead be honest and tell them that drugs can be dangerous and risky.

Don't tell kids not to have sex. Instead be honest and tell them there are benefits to wait until you are more mature to understand what you're doing, and risks to engaging in this behavior while you are young.

Don't tell kids to turn the other cheek when a bully on the playground hits them, tell them to never provoke a fight and aviod one at all cost - but if it is unavoidable do to your adversaries will - then use every imaginable means necessary to defend yourself - even if that includes violence.

The threat of consequence is what keeps order in this world. This is true on a very small, individual scale - and it is also true on a large, international scale. When you remove a set of consequences, you are just inviting more disorder.

Hizbollah knows they are de facto protected by the international community from true reprisal. They realize that the world would not sit by and watch Israel come in and Ghengis Khan style - wipe their group from the face of the earth - literally. And so with this knowledge they continue their fucked up ideology and attacks against israel.

However, you don't see Islamic fundamentalist attacking China do you? Wonder why that is? Could it be that the Chinese deal with problems of this sort in a manner that would make the US and Isreal look like a church picnic?

Eva7

NCfan wrote:

However, you don't see Islamic fundamentalist attacking China do you? Wonder why that is? Could it be that the Chinese deal with problems of this sort in a manner that would make the US and Isreal look like a church picnic?

China is not occupying the middle east. and China has never been attacked by the US either, despite their regime and their occupations in Asia. But don't worry, China will come on stage sooner or later, and then we all will join the church picnic.

RockinInCanada

NCfan wrote:

I would teach future generations that it is an unfair world that we live in. That we as humans can try to make it as equal as we can through society and government laws, but in the end it will never be - so don't expect it to be.

I would teach them that this is ultimately a tragic, not a thearaputic world that we live in. And so we must live our lives in accordance...

Trying to teach kids that violence is not the way to handle a conflict is like trying to preach abstinence to a bunch of teenagers. Sure, it would be a lot better if we didn't use violence to solve problems or if kids weren't running around having tons of young, premicous sex - but that is never going to happen. The true way to handle these problems is to understand human nature....

Don't tell kids drugs are bad, never do them, they are evil. Instead be honest and tell them that drugs can be dangerous and risky.

Don't tell kids not to have sex. Instead be honest and tell them there are benefits to wait until you are more mature to understand what you're doing, and risks to engaging in this behavior while you are young.

Don't tell kids to turn the other cheek when a bully on the playground hits them, tell them to never provoke a fight and aviod one at all cost - but if it is unavoidable do to your adversaries will - then use every imaginable means necessary to defend yourself - even if that includes violence.

The threat of consequence is what keeps order in this world. This is true on a very small, individual scale - and it is also true on a large, international scale. When you remove a set of consequences, you are just inviting more disorder.

Hizbollah knows they are de facto protected by the international community from true reprisal. They realize that the world would not sit by and watch Israel come in and Ghengis Khan style - wipe their group from the face of the earth - literally. And so with this knowledge they continue their fucked up ideology and attacks against israel.

However, you don't see Islamic fundamentalist attacking China do you? Wonder why that is? Could it be that the Chinese deal with problems of this sort in a manner that would make the US and Isreal look like a church picnic?

I do not see China attacking foreign countries as a solution to the problem....

Puck78

NCfan wrote:

However, you don't see Islamic fundamentalist attacking China do you? Wonder why that is? Could it be that the Chinese deal with problems of this sort in a manner that would make the US and Isreal look like a church picnic?

talking about chinese and tibetan friendship...

julienova

After a few pages, but I am surprised to see the gist of the argument on the Pearl Jam message boards. Yes it is an incendiary topic. I'll just repeat something I posted on MySpace today. Yeah, MySpace, lame. But not that lame compared to some of the stuff I've read over this topic.

---

My friend Corinne, in Christian area of Lebanon, has not been heard from since July 17th. Hopefully, she is one of the 500,000-800,000 "displaced" people of this war. If it was any other country besides Israel, backed by US, we would be talking about War Crimes and UN occupation at this point.

I have never been so disappointed in the global media, however. As a liberal, it was bad during Clinton's impeachment. As a liberal, it was bad during 9/11, and the subsequent elections and occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq. As a friend, this is personal.

darkcrow

dont know if anyone else saw this but on the news last night they showed footage of 2 lebenon ambulences shot to hell by, allegedly, israeli aircraft.
anyone else thinking "WAR CRIMES!"?

rebornFixer

jsand wrote:

You are a liar as well, I see. Do you get your figures from hizbollah?

I wonder what would happen if one of those "glorified firecrackers" landed in your home...

As of today, even Hezbollah has admitted to 24 militant deaths, and this organization is known for underreporting casualties.

rebornFixer

Oh, and the "official" Israeli military figure for Hezbollah casualties is "over 100", danmac.

farfromglorified

darkcrow wrote:

dont know if anyone else saw this but on the news last night they showed footage of 2 lebenon ambulences shot to hell by, allegedly, israeli aircraft.
anyone else thinking "WAR CRIMES!"?

I thought about crimes the instant I heard about soldiers being kidnapped. I thought about crimes the instant I heard about Hezbollah rockets flying into Israeli towns. I thought about crimes the instant I heard about Israeli bombs falling in Lebanon.

"WAR CRIME" is the must redundant statement in history. If someone stole your wallet would you be thinking "THEFT CRIME"?

rebornFixer

farfromglorified wrote:

I thought about crimes the instant I heard about soldiers being kidnapped. I thought about crimes the instant I heard about Hezbollah rockets flying into Israeli towns. I thought about crimes the instant I heard about Israeli bombs falling in Lebanon.

"WAR CRIME" is the must redundant statement in history. If someone stole your wallet would you be thinking "THEFT CRIME"?

I can see your point, actually.

julienova

farfromglorified wrote:

I thought about crimes the instant I heard about soldiers being kidnapped. I thought about crimes the instant I heard about Hezbollah rockets flying into Israeli towns. I thought about crimes the instant I heard about Israeli bombs falling in Lebanon.

"WAR CRIME" is the must redundant statement in history. If someone stole your wallet would you be thinking "THEFT CRIME"?

That's true at a facile level. But I think we all in this modern age kind of know what a war crime versus criminal behavior means. From, wiki, which has a good description of war crimes:

"In the context of war, a war crime is a punishable offense under International Law, for violations of the laws of war by any person or persons, military or civilian. Every violation of the law of war in an inter-state conflict is a war crime, while violations in internal conflicts are typically limited to the local jurisdiction. In essence, the term "war crime" represents the concept of an international jurisdiction as applicable to the most severe crimes, in areas where government is dysfunctional and society is in a state of turmoil."

Last I heard, Haifa, and even all of Israel, wasn't dysfunctional and society was not in a state of turmoil. Can you say the same about Lebanon?

farfromglorified

julienova wrote:

That's true at a facile level. But I think we all in this modern age kind of know what a war crime versus criminal behavior means. From, wiki, which has a good description of war crimes:

Yes, in this "modern age" so many wish to differentiate between legal war and illegal war. There was another "modern age" where so many wished to differentiate between legal slavery and illegal slavery. "Modern ages" do not impress me and do not a justification make.

A "modern age" cannot change the nature of hypocrisy.

Last I heard, Haifa, and even all of Israel, wasn't dysfunctional and society was not in a state of turmoil.

If rockets were randoming falling in your neighborhood, would that represent "dysfunction" and "turmoil" to you? If 100,000 of the 300,000 people in your town evacuated, leaving their homes and businesses behind, would that represent "dynsfunction" and "turmoil" to you? Or do those things only matter if you're poor?

Can you say the same about Lebanon?

Yes. I can say that Lebanon is experiencing much "dysfunction" and "turmoil".

darkcrow

farfromglorified wrote:

I thought about crimes the instant I heard about soldiers being kidnapped. I thought about crimes the instant I heard about Hezbollah rockets flying into Israeli towns. I thought about crimes the instant I heard about Israeli bombs falling in Lebanon.

"WAR CRIME" is the must redundant statement in history. If someone stole your wallet would you be thinking "THEFT CRIME"?

i wouldnt say kidnapping soldiers is a war crime as such as hezbollah believe they are at war with israel. these soliders would be POW's. but then hezbollah are not a soverign state and so.... could they even commit a war crime?

also for the record... i do not support hezbollah or its attacks against the israeli people. i was disgusted when i read that missiles that crashed into a railway depot was filled with ball barings... that is akin to what the IRA did...

blame aside... both sides need to stop... full stop.

shiraz

julienova wrote:

Last I heard, Haifa, and even all of Israel, wasn't dysfunctional and society was not in a state of turmoil. Can you say the same about Lebanon?

Well, you are wrong, at least for northern Israel (25% of the state). 50% of us ran away, the other 50% is sitting inside shelters. Almost all work places in northen Israel are closed for too many days, including Haifa port, which is the main port of Israel (importing and exporting are badley damaged). There's is lack in medications, a minor one, but its there. Nursing (old) people can not get help because their therapists can't be there to help them. Lots of ruined houses. Too many anxious kids. Basically, northern Israel is having an economical & social bankruptcy, but our gov doesn't seem to care so much. Fortunately there are lots of private organizations / people who care about us, but it is still not enough, far from being enough.

sure, it's better than the situation in Lebanon, but it is still horrible and intolerable. Just because it looks more aesthetic, doesn't mean its not so bad.

julienova

farfromglorified wrote:

Yes, in this "modern age" so many wish to differentiate between legal war and illegal war. There was another "modern age" where so many wished to differentiate between legal slavery and illegal slavery. "Modern ages" do not impress me and do not a justification make.

A "modern age" cannot change the nature of hypocrisy.



If rockets were randoming falling in your neighborhood, would that represent "dysfunction" and "turmoil" to you? If 100,000 of the 300,000 people in your town evacuated, leaving their homes and businesses behind, would that represent "dynsfunction" and "turmoil" to you? Or do those things only matter if you're poor?



Yes. I can say that Lebanon is experiencing much "dysfunction" and "turmoil".

Maybe my brain is just numb. I don't understand where you are coming from? My point is that Lebanon is not Hezbollah. It has it's own citizens, who are being deeply affected by the situation. From the accounts I have read, some of them personal, the war is pretty lopsided with the Israeli's having most of the firing power and the Lebanese citizens suffering most of the effects.

I live in DC. I lived through 9/11. I guess you could call me the polar opposite. And yes, I know what it feels like when several hundred thousand people are panicked all at once and have no idea what will happen next. I won't get maudlin and tell you about the people I know who died that day. It was one hell of a traffic jam home from work though. I live by Dulles airport. You know, the one that flew the plane into the Pentagon.

Byrnzie

shiraz wrote:

Didn't answer my question. My whole point was to show you its not a black-or-white situation, and though one can understand why things are happening, it doesn't mean he'll justifay and accept them. I understand why my gov had to attack back, but I can not justify our exaggerated reaction. I can understand why Hamas sends suicide bombers to Israel, but I will NEVER justifay nor accept it. And maybe I can sometimes understand Hizbollah motives, but I will NEVER JUSTIFAY NOR ACCEPT their actions.

So far, too many people here are actually justifting and accepting Hizbollah's actions against us, and I just can't understand how come you are so one-sided.

The Israeli's don't need to be doing what they're doing. They have enough clout that they could have persuaded the yanks to put pressure on Syria to stop Hizbollah. Either that or there could have been an exchange of prisoners. I mean this kidnapping business goes on all the time.

farfromglorified

darkcrow wrote:

i wouldnt say kidnapping soldiers is a war crime as such as hezbollah believe they are at war with israel.

A war crime, therefore, depends on one side's "belief"??? If Israel believes it is at war with Hezbollah, and believes it is bombing Hezbollah strongholds and weapons caches, how can their actions be classified as a "war crime", based on your standards?

these soliders would be POW's. but then hezbollah are not a soverign state and so.... could they even commit a war crime?

Of course they can commit a "war crime", unless your definition of the term revolves around vague international standards. This is where the insane idiocy of international law kicks in. If something is going to be judged as a crime in the name of individual sovereignty, it should be a crime for whomever commits it. You can't say that Israeli's random killing of civilians is a "war crime" but then say Hezbollah's random killing of civilians is not when both share similar motivations and means. That makes absolutely no sense.

Israel is a sovereign state. It can and should be able to ignore your definition of "war crime". However it cannot ignore the logical rules of hypocrisy. Same goes for Hezbollah.

also for the record... i do not support hezbollah or its attacks against the israeli people. i was disgusted when i read that missiles that crashed into a railway depot was filled with ball barings... that is akin to what the IRA did...

blame aside... both sides need to stop... full stop.

Agreed.

farfromglorified

julienova wrote:

Maybe my brain is just numb. I don't understand where you are coming from? My point is that Lebanon is not Hezbollah. It has it's own citizens, who are being deeply affected by the situation. From the accounts I have read, some of them personal, the war is pretty lopsided with the Israeli's having most of the firing power and the Lebanese citizens suffering most of the effects.

Yes, Lebanon is not Hezbollah. Lebanon is where much of the Hezbollah organization calls home. Similarly, Israel is not the IDF. Just as many Lebanese do not support Hezbollah, many Israeli citizens do not support the actions of the IDF. Innocent people are dying on both sides of that border in the name of hate and fear. The deaths of unarmed, unaggressive civilians in the South is no more just than the deaths of civilians in the North.

Just because a war is "pretty lopsided" does not give the weaker side the right to operate on different moral grounds than the strong. David has no right to kill Goliath's neighbor, nor does Goliath have the right to destroy David's town.

That is where I am coming from.

I live in DC. I lived through 9/11. I guess you could call me the polar opposite. And yes, I know what it feels like when several hundred thousand people are panicked all at once and have no idea what will happen next. I won't get maudlin and tell you about the people I know who died that day. It was one hell of a traffic jam home from work though. I live by Dulles airport. You know, the one that flew the plane into the Pentagon.

And as you can attest then, "dysfunction" and "turmoil" are not unique to the Lebanese or the Palestinians. You made the claim that Haifa is not experiencing "dysfunction" and "turmoil". That is a foolish statement. Just because that "dysfunction" and "turmoil" are not happening to the same degree as that of Lebanon does not justify the actions of those who are causing that very real "dysfunction" and "turmoil" in Haifa.

farfromglorified

Byrnzie wrote:

The Israeli's don't need to be doing what they're doing. They have enough clout that they could have persuaded the yanks to put pressure on Syria to stop Hizbollah. Either that or there could have been an exchange of prisoners. I mean this kidnapping business goes on all the time.

This same logic applies to Hezbollah.

PaperPlates

danmac wrote:

When, where, and to whom have I ever supported this British Governments illegal actions in Iraq?

When, where, and to whom have I ever condoned the Iraqi 'insurgents', freedom fighters, for fighting this British Governments illegal actions in Iraq?

You are the one who defends murder by state, not me.

Civilians are dying in Iraq because of an illegal invasion

Civilains are dying in Lebanon following (yet another the third or fourth is it this time?) an act of illegal invasion and oppression.

What came first, an Israeli invasion of Lebanon, or the creation of Hezbollah?

Do you pay taxes? If so, isnt that supporting your british govt. Isnt that the same logic followed that puts blood on american citizens hands in your minds eye? And asking us to feel sorry for Hezbollah just because they suck at war is silly. I refuse to feel bad for someone who poked a bigger guy with a stick, and then is surprised when the bigger guy turns around and whoops his ass. Would this warfare be okay with you if the deathcounts were even? Retarded logic dannyboy. Your anger is getting in the way of your logic. Seek help.