Hezbollah started this

shiraz

Byrnzie wrote:

Man, enough of this hypothetical stuff already. You must have grasped my point of view on this shit by now. I would understand/empathize with/ the actions of a group of people driven to war/terrorism by the provocations of a huge military force like Israel, Britain, or the U.S. If the U.S invaded Venezuela then I'd expect other Latin American countries to come to their aid, in whatever guise.
I mean, shit, what were the French resistance if not terrorists in the eyes of Germans? What was the ANC? Where the Vietcong also terrorists?
Have you seen a film called 'The Battle of Algiers'? If not, check it out.

Didn't answer my question. My whole point was to show you its not a black-or-white situation, and though one can understand why things are happening, it doesn't mean he'll justifay and accept them. I understand why my gov had to attack back, but I can not justify our exaggerated reaction. I can understand why Hamas sends suicide bombers to Israel, but I will NEVER justifay nor accept it. And maybe I can sometimes understand Hizbollah motives, but I will NEVER JUSTIFAY NOR ACCEPT their actions.

So far, too many people here are actually justifting and accepting Hizbollah's actions against us, and I just can't understand how come you are so one-sided.

Puck78

danmac wrote:

we all know, there are 1.35 million people, a third of whom children, locked behind a wall of concrete and barbed wire, who have a shorter life span that Shiraz and her countrymen, who have limited, if any, access to clean running water, sixty miles down the coast in Gaza.

I don't want to go out of topic, but you touched an interesting point: there's a strict link between the positiion of the israeli colonies in the west bank and the availability of water. It's just a topic i reccomend you all reading about.

danmac

farfromglorified wrote:

Blind hate, by definition, can learn nothing.

Why is my hate of state oppression blind?

I see clearly. A state is subjecting people to inhumane actions.

What is there not to see?

As for some of your other less lucid points, if the peoples of the world lived by your standards, we would still have Apartheid in South Africa, Nazis in France, the British in India or Kenya or even, god forbid, America.

Eva7

shiraz wrote:

Didn't answer my question. My whole point was to show you its not a black-or-white situation, and though one can understand why things are happening, it doesn't mean he'll justifay and accept them. I understand why my gov had to attack back, but I can not justify our exaggerated reaction. I can understand why Hamas sends suicide bombers to Israel, but I will NEVER justifay nor accept it. And maybe I can sometimes understand Hizbollah motives, but I will NEVER JUSTIFAY NOR ACCEPT their actions.

So far, too many people here are actually justifting and accepting Hizbollah's actions against us, and I just can't understand how come you are so one-sided.

I don't think most of us justify Hizbollah. The problem to me it is not this. The problem is that it becomes hard not to become onesided when you see a sovereign nation committing a massacre of civilians and destoying an entire country. Hizbollah do not represent a sovereign nation, they are only a sciite army born from a resistence movement and a political party. Israel is a sovereign nation with a powerful army, which is violating the international laws and the Geneva Convention. Human rights and international laws must be our benchmark to judge one side and the other. Hizbollah are to condemn in this situation for not having respected the democratic debate in their country and for having committed crimes themselves, being accountable as much as Israel. But this way, putting the debate in terms of "which side are you on" is not going to solve the problem for any side. I appreciate what you said about your government actions, and I think that the problems can only be solved by this kind of awareness from your people on one side, and from the awareness of the lebanon people that the Hizbollah are not helping their cause. The problem to me is that it seems that the opposite is occurring. Israeli people will keep support their government acts against the violence they suffer, and the lebanese people are becoming stronger supporters of hizbollah in these days, which are the only ones who are apparently "defending" them from the aggression. But this is how war goes. It strenghten hatred and violence. the only way to end war is on the opposite direction.

shiraz

Puck78 wrote:

1. oh, we all agree that the Uk would use all its weapons. The use of weapons is so good for the economy. This doesn't mean that i would agree. But it is really interesting how people of a country using extreme violence against a second country tend to start to committ human rights violations against the people of the second country, after a while. An example, that i've already reported somewhere else, about this is kosovo: while at the beginning just the serb government repressed the albanian population in kosovo, after a while also the serb people started to perpetuate human rights violations.

2. two years ago morocco invaded a little island. The aznar government wasn't very happy about it. I would be curious about the reactions of zapatero. surely i admire him for opening talks with ETA.

Finaly someone who actually answered my question. Thank you.

2. Morocco invaded to a little spanish island, really? Didn't know that. Is it a populated island? Anyway, I hope (and believe) this story will end up good.

farfromglorified

danmac wrote:

Why is my hate of state oppression blind?

Because it has no basis in the concept of "state oppression". Your hate is blind to the obvious lessening of "state oppression" in Lebanon. Your hate is blind to the systematic oppression of that which you defend. Furthermore, such hate is the primary motivator of this conflict and a contribution to it cannot hope to end it.

I see clearly. A state is subjecting people to inhumane actions.

As is your "freedom fighter" regime. What's the difference???

What is there not to see?

There's plenty to see. You can start be seeing the very real human being sitting under the rockets going from North to South, instead of just the very real human being sitting under the bombs going from South to North.

As for some of your other less lucid points, if the peoples of the world lived by your standards, we would still have Apartheid in South Africa, Nazis in France, the British in India or Kenya or even, god forbid, America.

My standards are freedom and happiness, my friend. Apartheid, fascism, imperialism and slavery are the opposites of my standards.

But by all means keep trying to make peace via war. By all means keep trying to make love via hate. By all means keep trying to find the means of a conflict by fixating on its ends. It didn't work for the alchemists of old, but I'm sure you're different.

CaterinaA

Eva7 wrote:

I don't think most of us justify Hizbollah. The problem to me it is not this. The problem is that it becomes hard not to become onesided when you see a sovereign nation committing a massacre of civilians and destoying an entire country. Hizbollah do not represent a sovereign nation, they are only a sciite army born from a resistence movement and a political party. Israel is a sovereign nation with a powerful army, which is violating the international laws and the Geneva Convention. Human rights and international laws must be our benchmark to judge one side and the other. Hizbollah are to condemn in this situation for not having respected the democratic debate in their country and for having committed crimes themselves, being accountable as much as Israel. But this way, putting the debate in terms of "which side are you on" is not going to solve the problem for any side. I appreciate what you said about your government actions, and I think that the problems can only be solved by this kind of awareness from your people on one side, and from the awareness of the lebanon people that the Hizbollah are not helping their cause. The problem to me is that it seems that the opposite is occurring. Israeli people will keep support their government acts against the violence they suffer, and the lebanese people are becoming stronger supporters of hizbollah in these days, which are the only ones who are apparently "defending" them from the aggression. But this is how war goes. It strenghten hatred and violence. the only way to end war is on the opposite direction.

Ciao mia carissima!!

Just wanted to quote Eva's statement 'cause it is simply brilliant and I feel it expresses my feelings about this ordeal our beloved world is currently facing.

My biggest concern is what are we teaching to the upcoming generations? How the middle west kids are going to learn tolerance and love if their leaders and role models are trying to solve things using violence? How will they understand the power of words, deliberation and negotiation? When will we start to respect Geneva Conventions and the Human Rights' Chart?

This is a very sad legacy we're leaving, nevermind the fact that the humanitary crisis has long-term effects (malnourishing, health problems, learning difficulties, among many others) for human development. I'm not choosing sides, life is equally valuable and precious to me, I just want both sides to seat on a table and negotiate a peaceful and lasting solution...

Peace
Caterina

Puck78

shiraz wrote:

Finaly someone who actually answered my question. Thank you.

2. Morocco invaded to a little spanish island, really? Didn't know that. Is it a populated island? Anyway, I hope (and believe) this story will end up good.

no, it was not populated, but still it created tension between the states. Funny (in a bitter way), isn't it? I'll send you a little link about it by PM.

About the hypotetical invasion of the hizbollah to other countries, like Eva stated before, I don't believe than any of our governments is "good", and all of them would behave like israel at the first occasion. Some of them neither wait to be attacked, but go in Iraq, Afghanistan... Others keep on selling arms, even if they know what the arms will do in the hands of other states...
It's important that us citizens keep on being critical on these actions of our government, even when our state i attacked and it is easy to be a bit more nationalistic...

danmac

farfromglorified wrote:

My standards are freedom and happiness, my friend. Apartheid, fascism, imperialism and slavery are the opposites of my standards.

But by all means keep trying to make peace via war. By all means keep trying to make love via hate. By all means keep trying to find the means of a conflict by fixating on its ends. It didn't work for the alchemists of old, but I'm sure you're different.

It did work. Please read your history, sir, you seem too much of an intelligent person to say that force has never worked to fight oppression.

Did the British leave America by choice, by reason, love, making peace with peace, or by force of George Washington and the?

Did the Americans leave Vietnam by choice, by reason, love, making peace with peace, or by force of the Vietcong resistance?

Did the French leave Algeria by choice, reason, love, making peace with peace, or by force of the Algerian resistance?

Did the Japanese leave Okinawa or the Philipines by choice, reason, love, making peace with peace, or by force of the United States campaign against oppression and fascism?

Did the South African government dismantle apartheid by choice, reason, love, making peace with peace, or by the force of the ANC?

I could go on, but i think the point is made.

shiraz

Eva7 wrote:

But this way, putting the debate in terms of "which side are you on" is not going to solve the problem for any side. I appreciate what you said about your government actions, and I think that the problems can only be solved by this kind of awareness from your people on one side, and from the awareness of the lebanon people that the Hizbollah are not helping their cause.

That is the whole point of my posts, to make you guys realize that this is not a black-or-white situation, it never is. Taking one side, no matter if its Israel or Lebanon, only brings more hate. Please, look at this board, don't you think most people here tend to be really onesided when it comes to the mid-eastern conflict?

Eva7 wrote:

The problem to me is that it seems that the opposite. is occurring Israeli people will keep support their government acts against the violence they suffer, and the lebanese people are becoming stronger supporters of hizbollah in these days, which are the only ones who are apparently "defending" them from the aggression. But this is how war goes. It strenghten hatred and violence. the only way to end war is on the opposite direction.

You are wrong. only a few days ago there was a massive protest action in Tel Aviv against our gov's over-reaction. There are lots of "left-wingers" private organizations who help Palestinians in all sort of things, and they are VERY loud. Have you heared about '4 mothers'? this organization considered to be THE catalyst of Israel's withdrawal from Lebanon. Believe me, Israel is fulled with these kind of people & orgznizations. We even have arab political parties in the Kneset (Israeli parlament - I think 8 seats out of 120), not to mention the Labor party (19 seats), Meretz (Yossi Beilin's party - 6 seats if I recall), and some would add Kadima (Ariel Sharon's party - 34 seats).

However, I don't know so much about similar things that are going on in Palestine. There is a thread in page 1 or 2 of the board which deals with that subject - why can't we hear Palestinians taking with the same awareness for both sides? But that's not all. This board is quite a good representative of how the world is watching at the mid-eastern conflict - usually with one covered eye and no real curiosity for the whole "view", using lots of demagogy and narrow info sources. This is a bad, bad thing. You wouldn't believe or understand all the damage it causing to the peace process. I honestly believe this is one of the main reasons why our future around this area isn't going to be good in many, many years.

Puck78

shiraz wrote:

However, I don't know so much about similar things that are going on in Palestine. There is a thread in page 1 or 2 of the board which deals with that subject - why can't we hear Palestinians taking with the same awareness for both sides?

It is true, I'm contact with a lot of israeli peace activists and lawyer that denounce the situation in israeli jails for palestinians. At the same time i'm in contact with palestinian human rights activists that are always ready to denounce the attacks on civilians by palestinians to israeli people. However, thay are already busy enough to denounce about torture in jails, etc. You know, they have to deal with the occupation...

Eva7

shiraz wrote:

You are wrong. only a few days ago there was a massive protest action in Tel Aviv against our gov's over-reaction. There are lots of "left-wingers" private organizations who help Palestinians in all sort of things, and they are VERY loud. Have you heared about '4 mothers'? this organization considered to be THE catalyst of Israel's withdrawal from Lebanon. Believe me, Israel is fulled with these kind of people & orgznizations. We even have arab political parties in the Kneset (Israeli parlament - I think 8 seats out of 120), not to mention the Labor party (19 seats), Meretz (Yossi Beilin's party - 6 seats if I recall), and some would add Kadima (Ariel Sharon's party - 34 seats).

However, I don't know so much about similar things that are going on in Palestine. There is a thread in page 1 or 2 of the board which deals with that subject - why can't we hear Palestinians taking with the same awareness for both sides? But that's not all. This board is quite a good representative of how the world is watching at the mid-eastern conflict - usually with one covered eye and no real curiosity for the whole "view", using lots of demagogy and narrow info sources. This is a bad, bad thing. You wouldn't believe or understand all the damage it causing to the peace process. I honestly believe this is one of the main reasons why our future around this area isn't going to be good in many, many years.

sorry, I didn't mean that all the israeli are pro-massacre of lebanon... I am in touch with those peace organizations in Israel and I very well know that the peace movement is very active in Israel. But I am afraid that this escalation of violence now will bring the average people to support more military actions from the Israeli government. I hope I am wrong, of course.

about this board and the support to Palestine.... this board doesn't reflect the world in this case. for decades, the Israeli politics have been supported by all the western governments (the US first of all) and the corporate media. I have been working and researching about media propaganda, and I have been part of study projects on the US/Israeli propaganda worldwide, and I have to disagree with you about this. About the Palestinians, you should know better than me about their living conditions, so I don't see how you can expect such awareness from them. There are peaceful palestinians and there are palestinians who choose the violence as a defence, exactly like it happens in Israel. As well, I am in touch with several groups for peace in Palestine. and I agree with you, palestinians who have voted for hamas or have supported terrorist groups are not doing good to the cause, I totally agree. But this doesn't have to let us forget the horrible conditions of life in Palestine ,and the constant massacres by the Israeli army. you cannot pretend this doesn't happen, and cannot pretend that the world media costantly bury such reports and all the reports from the humanitarian groups.... but again ,I don't want to fall into the logic of who is wrong and who is right. but if you ask me, what has always damaged the peace process to me is the silence and non-action of the international community, and the powerful US foreign politics.

farfromglorified

danmac wrote:

It did work. Please read your history, sir, you seem too much of an intelligent person to say that force has never worked to fight oppression.

I have read my history. And it tells me that force creates oppression.

Did the British leave America by choice, by reason, love, making peace with peace, or by force of George Washington and the?

They did so by force. They fought against an oppressive government such that they could establish their own.

Did the Americans leave Vietnam by choice, by reason, love, making peace with peace, or by force of the Vietcong resistance?

They did so by force. The Vietcong fought one oppressive invader in favor of another.

Did the French leave Algeria by choice, reason, love, making peace with peace, or by force of the Algerian resistance?

They did so by force. They fought against an oppressive government such that they could establish their own.

Did the Japanese leave Okinawa or the Philipines by choice, reason, love, making peace with peace, or by force of the United States campaign against oppression and fascism?

They did so by the greater force of a greater oppressor.

Did the South African government dismantle apartheid by choice, reason, love, making peace with peace, or by the force of the ANC?

They did so by force. And they're in the middle of a fight against a new system of oppression.

I could go on, but i think the point is made.

The point that oppression begets oppression? Yes, you've made that point quite well. If only you could see it.

NCfan

CaterinaA wrote:

Ciao mia carissima!!

Just wanted to quote Eva's statement 'cause it is simply brilliant and I feel it expresses my feelings about this ordeal our beloved world is currently facing.

My biggest concern is what are we teaching to the upcoming generations? How the middle west kids are going to learn tolerance and love if their leaders and role models are trying to solve things using violence? How will they understand the power of words, deliberation and negotiation? When will we start to respect Geneva Conventions and the Human Rights' Chart?

This is a very sad legacy we're leaving, nevermind the fact that the humanitary crisis has long-term effects (malnourishing, health problems, learning difficulties, among many others) for human development. I'm not choosing sides, life is equally valuable and precious to me, I just want both sides to seat on a table and negotiate a peaceful and lasting solution...

Peace
Caterina

I fear that we are teaching the younger generations that you don't have to play by the rules. That if your group is marginalized by the majority, you can simply take hostile, murderous actions on those who oppose your view and there will be no consequences. You can murder others and then stand behind inocents so you cannot be touched.

I fear that we are teaching our younger generations a "piss in the wind" form of diplomacy becuase we strive for words, negotiation, deliberation with those who do not seek a true peace - only short-lived appeasement so they can stregnthen their position to fight another day.

I fear that we are teaching our younger generation that violence cannot bring peace when in reality, it is shear human nature to do what you please unless their are consequences that warrant you alter your actions. Sadly in our world it, without the consequence or threat of military intervention - many of our world's most corrupt and evil regimes would not change. It is just a reality that the only way to settle disputes sometimes is to kill each other.

This is how humans have settled disputes since we began to walk this earth millions of years ago. Just becuase we have ipods and satellite communications does not change our fundamental nature.

Is it possible to take the entire human race to thearpy and show them how this is wrong? No it is not. It is not realistic to believe that everyone believes that non-violene is the way to solve problems.

Hamas or Hizbollah have issues with Israel, but they choose to fight their battles through terrorism. So what good is it going to do Israel to take the high road and not fight back with their army?

I fear that we teach our children that Israel is wrong to support policies that oppress the Palestinian state, when the opposite would put money and power in the hands of those who would ask their children to strap a bomb to their body and detonate it in a civillian market place inside Israel.

I fear that we are teaching our children that a precision military attack against militants is morally equivalent to a Palestinian suicide bomber.

Eva7

NCfan wrote:

I fear that we are teaching the younger generations that you don't have to play by the rules. That if your group is marginalized by the majority, you can simply take hostile, murderous actions on those who oppose your view and there will be no consequences. You can murder others and then stand behind inocents so you cannot be touched.

I fear that we are teaching our younger generations a "piss in the wind" form of diplomacy becuase we strive for words, negotiation, deliberation with those who do not seek a true peace - only short-lived appeasement so they can stregnthen their position to fight another day.

I fear that we are teaching our younger generation that violence cannot bring peace when in reality, it is shear human nature to do what you please unless their are consequences that warrant you alter your actions. Sadly in our world it, without the consequence or threat of military intervention - many of our world's most corrupt and evil regimes would not change. It is just a reality that the only way to settle disputes sometimes is to kill each other.

This is how humans have settled disputes since we began to walk this earth millions of years ago. Just becuase we have ipods and satellite communications does not change our fundamental nature.

Is it possible to take the entire human race to thearpy and show them how this is wrong? No it is not. It is not realistic to believe that everyone believes that non-violene is the way to solve problems.

Hamas or Hizbollah have issues with Israel, but they choose to fight their battles through terrorism. So what good is it going to do Israel to take the high road and not fight back with their army?

I fear that we teach our children that Israel is wrong to support policies that oppress the Palestinian state, when the opposite would put money and power in the hands of those who would ask their children to strap a bomb to their body and detonate it in a civillian market place inside Israel.

I fear that we are teaching our children that a precision military attack against militants is morally equivalent to a Palestinian suicide bomber.

what would you teach them instead? that violence is good? that this is the world, and there's nothing you can do? this is the world you want to give to your children? because what is at stake here is that those generations won't ever come. humans have always been violent and always made wars, but they never had the powerful destruction weapons we have now, weapons that are able to cancel those future generations in one second. and we should have learnt those lessons of history by now. so, is this the beautiful race of humans that everybody want to reproduce on this earth? and is this what we want our children to risk? to have no future and being part of such horrible self-destructive humankind?? (sorry, I should say YOUR children, since I am not gonna have, not until there is a sign that this world will have a future).

Puck78

NCfan wrote:

I fear that we are teaching the younger generations that you don't have to play by the rules. That if your group is marginalized by the majority, you can simply take hostile, murderous actions on those who oppose your view and there will be no consequences. You can murder others and then stand behind inocents so you cannot be touched.

I fear that we are teaching our younger generations a "piss in the wind" form of diplomacy becuase we strive for words, negotiation, deliberation with those who do not seek a true peace - only short-lived appeasement so they can stregnthen their position to fight another day.

I fear that we are teaching our younger generation that violence cannot bring peace when in reality, it is shear human nature to do what you please unless their are consequences that warrant you alter your actions. Sadly in our world it, without the consequence or threat of military intervention - many of our world's most corrupt and evil regimes would not change. It is just a reality that the only way to settle disputes sometimes is to kill each other.

This is how humans have settled disputes since we began to walk this earth millions of years ago. Just becuase we have ipods and satellite communications does not change our fundamental nature.

Is it possible to take the entire human race to thearpy and show them how this is wrong? No it is not. It is not realistic to believe that everyone believes that non-violene is the way to solve problems.

Hamas or Hizbollah have issues with Israel, but they choose to fight their battles through terrorism. So what good is it going to do Israel to take the high road and not fight back with their army?

I fear that we teach our children that Israel is wrong to support policies that oppress the Palestinian state, when the opposite would put money and power in the hands of those who would ask their children to strap a bomb to their body and detonate it in a civillian market place inside Israel.

I fear that we are teaching our children that a precision military attack against militants is morally equivalent to a Palestinian suicide bomber.

I fear that we are teaching our kids that we have to fight terrorism with torture, guantanamo, human shields, lies on wmd, support of repressive regimes (see the sudden friendship between US, UK and Libya or Algeria)... should I go on?

jsand

farfromglorified wrote:

There's plenty to see. You can start be seeing the very real human being sitting under the rockets going from North to South, instead of just the very real human being sitting under the bombs going from South to North.

Very well said.

jsand

danmac wrote:

Number of Hezbolalh fighters killed is, according to the Israeli Government, 12.
Yes, 12. Which leaves 400 civilians. Against 17. Mmmmm....those pesky rockets, sorry, glorified firecrackers mustn't be as 'deadly' as your Fox reports tell you. Its all in the figures, trust me. Facts don't lie.

You are a liar as well, I see. Do you get your figures from hizbollah?

I wonder what would happen if one of those "glorified firecrackers" landed in your home...

NCfan

Puck78 wrote:

I fear that we are teaching our kids that we have to fight terrorism with torture, guantanamo, human shields, lies on wmd, support of repressive regimes (see the sudden friendship between US, UK and Libya or Algeria)... should I go on?

Hey, I agree with you on torture and Guantanamo and real politik foreign policy. Those things were and are wrong... I believe in killing for the sake of survival - nothing more. But I do not condone torture or the abuse of human rights.

farfromglorified

NCfan wrote:

I believe in killing for the sake of survival - nothing more.

Killing an unarmed, unaggressive human being is not done in the name of survival. It is done in the name of fear or it is done in the name of hate.