How can Israel deal with the palestinians?

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  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Byrnzie, you and Noam may either justify peace or you may justify war. Keep in mind that you cannot do both.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Byrnzie, you and Noam may either justify peace or you may justify war. Keep in mind that you cannot do both.

    Que? Non comprende! :confused:
  • dayan
    dayan Posts: 475
    also, if you read UN resolution 242, which Israel accepted immediately, it calls for Israel to withdraw from "territories" it conquered in the 67' war. It specifically does not say "all territories" and interviews with the various delegates to the UN who were involved in crafting the resolution testify to how carefully every word was chosen. They specifically speak about how the resolution was meant to recognize the ADMISABILITY for the purposes of security of territory conquered in a defensive war. Nothing is simple here. If Israel withdrew to the 67' border tomorrow I guarantee that the next day there would be rockets flying out of the West Bank at Israel. You write that Israel reinvaded Gaza two months after they withdrew from Gaza. They actually waited a year to reinvade, and did so only after a year of unceasing rocket attacks and the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier from inside Israel. By simplifying a complicated situation you only make things worse. Open your eyes or shut your mouth.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    dayan wrote:
    You write that Israel reinvaded Gaza two months after they withdrew from Gaza. They actually waited a year to reinvade, and did so only after a year of unceasing rocket attacks and the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier from inside Israel. By simplifying a complicated situation you only make things worse. Open your eyes or shut your mouth.

    'Gaza was devastated under Israeli rule. It’s now described accurately by Israeli human rights activists as the biggest prison in the world; totally encircled, no way in or out. And Israel freely carries out regular atrocities there. And of course after Palestinians voted the wrong way in a free election last January the US and Israel instantly determined that they would punish the population—punish the population because you didn’t vote the way we told you to. That’s a good indication of what Bush’s democracy promotion project that everyone talks about. It exists totally in rhetoric. In fact, there isn’t a particle of truth to it. And this is a good illustration of ‘you vote the wrong way, we punish you… with embargo, with cutting of funding, with any way we can’.

    And the atrocities continued. Just to give you some examples: In June, forty people were killed by Israeli forces, 36 in Gaza, four in the West Bank where the killings aren’t as high, it’s just mostly takeover. That was June. On June 24, an incident took place which is nonexistent for Western opinion but is existent for people who pay attention to the world.

    On June 24, Israeli forces kidnapped two civilians in Gaza city, the Muammar brothers. They claimed they’re militants, whatever that means, but they can claim anything they like. They kidnapped them, abducted them, and took them to Israel. They’re now off somewhere hidden in the Israeli prison system. It was barely mentioned in the west. Editors knew about it. No doubt they knew about it. Like there were 87 words in the Washington Post. So it was certainly known. It was in the Israeli press, IDF handouts, no question about the fact. But the West just doesn’t care about kidnapping; it’s fine, as long as our side does it. So no reaction, no comment, nothing.

    June 25th, the next day, Hamas captured an Israeli soldier.    You can’t kidnap soldiers, you can capture them. But by definition you can’t kidnap them as was pointed out a couple of days ago by a US military historian in the LA Times. So they captured an Israeli soldier. That led to a huge reaction in the West, a major atrocity. Israel quickly launched attacks, serious attacks. In June in Gaza, thirty-six people were killed. In July it was probably about 170 according to UN sources. And that was all approved in the West, in the United States particularly, because we can’t stand outrageous kidnapping.

    The kidnapping of civilians is a much worse crime than capturing a solider, especially a soldier in an army that’s attacking your country, which is what is happening. But that doesn’t register in the West, particularly the United States, but the West in general. On July 12th, Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers, killed three, and five others were killed in Lebanon. That again led to huge outrage. A major US-Israeli invasion—of course it’s the US—destroyed half of Lebanon, killed over a thousand people, a large part of the country’s wiped out, all over the place.

    That was fine. ‘Disproportionate’ is the most that anyone could say. Israel’s been kidnapping and abducting Lebanese for decades. We don’t know how many because no one looks. There was a secret prison discovered in Israel three years ago, worse than Guantanamo, totally secret. The secret prison was never even reported in the United States. It was in Israel and in Europe. And it was full of Lebanese.'

    My eyes have always been open. So the shut your mouth part of your sentence I'll shove right back up your butt where it originated.
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Que? Non comprende! :confused:

    The op-ed you posted made no metion of continued Palestinian violence, nor the active support of it from many of the groups mentioned.

    Furthermore, it made absolutely no mention of those states rejecting that very same "obvious solution" in 1947.

    In short, the post read like a call to arms. A call to arms is not and cannot be a call for peace.
  • dayan
    dayan Posts: 475
    Byrnzie wrote:
    'Gaza was devastated under Israeli rule. It’s now described accurately by Israeli human rights activists as the biggest prison in the world; totally encircled, no way in or out. And Israel freely carries out regular atrocities there. And of course after Palestinians voted the wrong way in a free election last January the US and Israel instantly determined that they would punish the population—punish the population because you didn’t vote the way we told you to. That’s a good indication of what Bush’s democracy promotion project that everyone talks about. It exists totally in rhetoric. In fact, there isn’t a particle of truth to it. And this is a good illustration of ‘you vote the wrong way, we punish you… with embargo, with cutting of funding, with any way we can’.

    And the atrocities continued. Just to give you some examples: In June, forty people were killed by Israeli forces, 36 in Gaza, four in the West Bank where the killings aren’t as high, it’s just mostly takeover. That was June. On June 24, an incident took place which is nonexistent for Western opinion but is existent for people who pay attention to the world.

    On June 24, Israeli forces kidnapped two civilians in Gaza city, the Muammar brothers. They claimed they’re militants, whatever that means, but they can claim anything they like. They kidnapped them, abducted them, and took them to Israel. They’re now off somewhere hidden in the Israeli prison system. It was barely mentioned in the west. Editors knew about it. No doubt they knew about it. Like there were 87 words in the Washington Post. So it was certainly known. It was in the Israeli press, IDF handouts, no question about the fact. But the West just doesn’t care about kidnapping; it’s fine, as long as our side does it. So no reaction, no comment, nothing.

    June 25th, the next day, Hamas captured an Israeli soldier.    You can’t kidnap soldiers, you can capture them. But by definition you can’t kidnap them as was pointed out a couple of days ago by a US military historian in the LA Times. So they captured an Israeli soldier. That led to a huge reaction in the West, a major atrocity. Israel quickly launched attacks, serious attacks. In June in Gaza, thirty-six people were killed. In July it was probably about 170 according to UN sources. And that was all approved in the West, in the United States particularly, because we can’t stand outrageous kidnapping.

    The kidnapping of civilians is a much worse crime than capturing a solider, especially a soldier in an army that’s attacking your country, which is what is happening. But that doesn’t register in the West, particularly the United States, but the West in general. On July 12th, Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers, killed three, and five others were killed in Lebanon. That again led to huge outrage. A major US-Israeli invasion—of course it’s the US—destroyed half of Lebanon, killed over a thousand people, a large part of the country’s wiped out, all over the place.

    That was fine. ‘Disproportionate’ is the most that anyone could say. Israel’s been kidnapping and abducting Lebanese for decades. We don’t know how many because no one looks. There was a secret prison discovered in Israel three years ago, worse than Guantanamo, totally secret. The secret prison was never even reported in the United States. It was in Israel and in Europe. And it was full of Lebanese.'

    My eyes have always been open. So the shut your mouth part of your sentence I'll shove right back up your butt where it originated.

    I find it amusing that you throw a one sided article back in my face and tell me your eyes are open. You have convinced yourself that your hard line position is correct and you refuse to even entertain the possibility that there could be shades of grey in this situation. that is a sure sign of fanaticism. How is it that you deplore Israeli abuses of Palestinian human rights and yet you are so hard hearted when it comes to the plight of Israelis who would like nothing better then for their neighbors to simply leave them alone and let them live in peace. You're a hypocrite. You say you speak for human rights, which should apply to both sides, but you are only sympathetic to the plight of one people. You say that you do not support Palestinian terror and yet you spend all your energy spewing hate at the victims of that terror and never criticizing it unless forced to in passing. It's absolute hypocrisy.
  • the face
    the face Posts: 192
    Byrnzie wrote:
    It's amazing how tough people like you can be on internet message boards. You weren't picked on at school by any chance were you?
    And you werent perhaps the school yard bully were ya? Because you sure try to be one here...A little dissent and you go crying to the moderator to have me banned? Maybe you were the one who got picked on. Otherwise why go back to to mommy to have me banned. And no, I would never wish cancer on another human being. You do have me confused. Sorry you feel your the only one who thinks its ok to come online and bully people with your ignorant crap. I wont justify any more of your stupidity with a response. It is clear you don't read, don't travel and are probably of limited education. By the way, wathcing the television is not education fyi
  • the face
    the face Posts: 192
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I'd also like to add that I think the ancient doctrine of the Pharisees has drastically damaged the Jewish image. Preaching that it's ok to murder gentiles, or it's ok to steal from a gentile, but should not from a Jew. Usury, the Rothschilds, the whole monetary control of the world! That's what's damaging to the Jewish image, that's why this crap happens.

    The Holocaust was not just Hitler's uncaused hate for Jews, he hated Jews because of their control of the European monetary system, perhaps his father was a painter that became impoverished to a Jewish banker, that is the basis for Hitler's motivation. Although he was also fucked in the head.

    The point is, take some responsibility. Label me an anti-semite all you want, it doesn't change history or the future. Jewish people have to take some accountability for what has happened and is happening. If you ignore the Jewish role in the Holocaust, then you fail to explain why the Holocaust happened. I don't think it was right, it was all fucked up and Hitler was a psychotic maniac, but he was motivated by something powerful and it was monetary control.

    are scary. scary to think there are still people like you in the 21st century. wow, justifying hitler because of the rothchilds. zeig heil my friend
  • the face
    the face Posts: 192
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Exactly, nationalism is the differentiation. Without nationalism, there would be no Zion. Jews would be living happily throughout the nations of the world. Zionism was diseased idea that was sold to the Jews without considering the consequences.

    and where exactly would the jews be living happily?germany? oh you killed them all there. Poland? Killed them all. Greece? killed them all. France? Killed them all. Russia? Killed by pogroms and Hitler. Spain? expelled by the catholics. So where exactly can jews live happily? I bet youd be good with the Madagascar plan..
  • the face
    the face Posts: 192
    dayan wrote:
    I didn't suggest any such thing. Are you really unaware of the history of the Jews in Europe? Pogroms, blood libels, forced conversions, expulsions, massacres of entire communities during the crusades, abductions of Jewish babies for conversion, ghettoization, segregation, all of which preceded the holocaust.

    I dont know why to continue engaging this guys racist crap. He is fully entrenched in nis nazi views. dont bother. clearly he does not read and is not educated. save it. its too bad the mods here are ok with nazi bullshit.
  • the face
    the face Posts: 192
    Byrnzie wrote:
    News flash! Israeli troops re-occupied Gaza about two months after leaving it. They've not left since.

    Secondly, I know who you are.

    Kat, are you reading this? You may want to check his i.p address. You're the fella who stated that you wished I got cancer and died. You were banned for this. Who dya think you're kidding pal? I could spot you a mile away.

    P.s, did you enjoy yourself in the West bank recently? Did you manage to take your anger and frustration out on any Palestinians whilst you were there? Go on, share it with us. You're obviously dying to show us all how tough you are.

    ive never posted here. ive read this board but not engaged it because i did not want to get involved in pointless debate with some of morons on here. i found the palestinians i met to be lovely warm people. unlike you i choose to actually educate myself by leaving my little cocoon and seeing the world myself before making a decision. the news media is no place to get educated. i have been to a number of islamic countries and found the conditions in many islamic countries to be deplorable. this has to do with the fact that their barbaric rulers choose not to share their wealth with their own people. is that the jews fault as well? further, there are plenty of arabs (aka palestinians) who live peacefully well within the borders of israel. the only thing the jews want is freedom not to be killed by hate mongers. i presume you object to that otherwise you woudnt be spending as much of your time bashing israel and then denying your an anti-semite.
  • the face
    the face Posts: 192
    Byrnzie wrote:
    It's him. I can't remember what his name was then. It was some convoluted name which I think began with an R. I can tell by his aggressive tone that it's him. He also mentioned back then he was gonna be joining the army and spending time in the West bank. He also mentions above that he's been on here for years. So why's he only got 15 posts? I wonder if this was the first time he was banned or if there were previous occasions. If Kat has a record of the post which got me banned when I responded to him by telling him to stick it up his arse then she can check his i.p address. I have a good ear for the tone of someone's writing. If you changed your name and came back on here I'd recognise you. It's him. Simple as that.

    wrong guy dude. are you so threatened by a contrary view that you need to go to mommy?
  • farfromglorified
    farfromglorified Posts: 5,700
    Chill out kids. You're all attempting to command respect by demonstrating how little of it you deserve.
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Chill out kids. You're all attempting to command respect by demonstrating how little of it you deserve.

    It seems that's what this board is about lately.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • the face
    the face Posts: 192
    dayan wrote:
    also, if you read UN resolution 242, which Israel accepted immediately, it calls for Israel to withdraw from "territories" it conquered in the 67' war. It specifically does not say "all territories" and interviews with the various delegates to the UN who were involved in crafting the resolution testify to how carefully every word was chosen. They specifically speak about how the resolution was meant to recognize the ADMISABILITY for the purposes of security of territory conquered in a defensive war. Nothing is simple here. If Israel withdrew to the 67' border tomorrow I guarantee that the next day there would be rockets flying out of the West Bank at Israel. You write that Israel reinvaded Gaza two months after they withdrew from Gaza. They actually waited a year to reinvade, and did so only after a year of unceasing rocket attacks and the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier from inside Israel. By simplifying a complicated situation you only make things worse. Open your eyes or shut your mouth.
    also calls for the warring sides to recognize israels right to exist. egypt did this, and guess what they got, their land back. syria still does not, and guess what, they dont have their land back. why? they did not comply with 242. sorry to confuse you with more actual fact. hamas, the party in powere in gaza, does not recognize israels right to exist. so, how is it they are in compliance with 242 or international law? they are not. that is why even the europeans have shut down Hamas. why aren't you blaming the europeans? ah yes, because byrnzie is one. or at least living there on a visa is my guess.
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    the face wrote:
    there are plenty of arabs (aka palestinians) who live peacefully well within the borders of israel.

    ... where they suffer severe discrimination.....
  • Truthmonger
    Truthmonger Posts: 559
    redrock wrote:
    ... where they suffer severe discrimination.....


    Where they are told everyday where and when they can go.....

    Where many live on a diet comparable to less-wealthy African nations...

    Where they can't leave b/c Israel refuses to give passports at its discretion....

    Where they have been living in glorified refugee camps since Israel's formation...

    Where they see even private Palestinian land taken and built upon.....

    Where they are constantly reminded of Camp David and how THEY are responsible for this intractable affair (even though Camp David would have seen Palestinain areas cut up into hundreds of parcels of land and divided by Israeli-controlled roads which they would not be able to cross).
  • miller8966
    miller8966 Posts: 1,450
    Byrnzie wrote:
    If and when Israel pulls back to the internationally recognised 1967 borders then I'll pay more attention to the other side of the coin if attacks against Israeli's continue. But until then I will continue to sing out the real criminal in this situation.

    me 2...lests rally against the palestinans!
    America...the greatest Country in the world.
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    Well, this was an interesting thread. I'm not sure where to come back into it, so I'll just leave it alone.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    Truthmonger wrote:
    Where they are told everyday where and when they can go.....

    Where many live on a diet comparable to less-wealthy African nations...

    Where they can't leave b/c Israel refuses to give passports at its discretion....

    Where they have been living in glorified refugee camps since Israel's formation...

    Where they see even private Palestinian land taken and built upon.....

    Where they are constantly reminded of Camp David and how THEY are responsible for this intractable affair (even though Camp David would have seen Palestinain areas cut up into hundreds of parcels of land and divided by Israeli-controlled roads which they would not be able to cross).

    Not forgetting to mention that they are discrimated against when it comes to land. Most of the land (over 90%) is controlled by two 'organisations' (for lack of better word) and in most cases this land is available only for Jewish development and purchase (ie not for 'arabs' or 'Druze'). On top of that, many ethnic Palestinian villages have not been officially recognized by the Israeli government, and therefore they do not get the basic services provided by the government for a similar jewish village, running water, electricity and schools.

    Also, Israeli Palestinians who marry Palestinians from the occupied are not able to legally live with their spouse in Israel.

    But hey... besides that and more... they live in peace and harmony....... :rolleyes:

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