atheism against the law?

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  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    hippiemom wrote:
    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ..."

    In enacting a law that has as it's sole basis the fact that Christians observe their sabbath on Sunday, the government is giving preference to Christianity above other faiths or no faith at all. The absence of the law would not be prohibiting the free exercise of the Christian religion, as Christians are obviously free to not purchase alcohol on Sundays.
    How is Christianity established by this law? Or explain how any religion is prohibited from free exercise by this law?
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    surferdude wrote:
    How is Christianity established by this law?
    A Christian belief that can't be justified by any reasons outside Christianity has been codified into a law that Christians and non-Christians alike must abide by. My right as a non-Christian to not be subject to Christian rules is infringed.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_law
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    hippiemom wrote:
    A Christian belief that can't be justified by any reasons outside Christianity has been codified into a law that Christians and non-Christians alike must abide by. My right as a non-Christian to not be subject to Christian rules is infringed.
    You are reading much into the law that is not there. The law prohibits alcohol sales during certain times. How does this either establish Christianity, or prohibite the free exercise of any other religion? Please stick to the actual law.
    I'm not sure you can justify the restriction of aclohal sales as a Christian belief. Seems like a far stretch.

    p.s. I hope I'm not a slinky. I've always been more of a weeble, in that I wobble but don't fall down.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    surferdude wrote:
    You are reading much into the law that is not there. The law prohibits alcohol sales during certain times. How does this either establish Christianity, or prohibite the free exercise of any other religion? Please stick to the actual law.
    I'm not sure you can justify the restriction of aclohal sales as a Christian belief. Seems like a far stretch.

    Seems they should extend that law to Wednesdays in some areas.
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  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    gue_barium wrote:
    Seems they should extend that law to Wednesdays in some areas.
    Look I don't agree with the law. It seems pretty stupid to me. But I think some people would be happy with a shut down of alcohol sales on Wednesdays but not Sundays. At least then they wouldn't think their constitutional rights were being abused.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    surferdude wrote:
    You are reading much into the law that is not there. The law prohibits alcohol sales during certain times. How does this either establish Christianity, or prohibite the free exercise of any other religion? Please stick to the actual law.
    I'm not sure you can justify the restriction of aclohal sales as a Christian belief. Seems like a far stretch.
    I don't think it's a stretch at all. The people who wrote these laws and put them into effect were quite clear in their intention to "preserve the sabbath." They establish a portion of Christian doctrine as a law that must be obeyed by all, including non-Christians.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    hippiemom wrote:
    I don't think it's a stretch at all. The people who wrote these laws and put them into effect were quite clear in their intention to "preserve the sabbath." They establish a portion of Christian doctrine as a law that must be obeyed by all, including non-Christians.
    So if pot is made legal will you be crying constitutional foul because it's a Rastafarian belief?

    You still haven't made your point (in my opinion) about how Christianity is established by limiting alcohol sales.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    surferdude wrote:
    Look I don't agree with the law. It seems pretty stupid to me. But I think some people would be happy with a shut down of alcohol sales on Wednesdays but not Sundays. At least then they wouldn't think their constitutional rights were being abused.
    Personally, I don't care whether I can buy alcohol on Sunday or not. I hate going to the store, so I buy enough to last several months when I go. They can prohibit sales from March through May for all I care, it wouldn't affect me a bit.

    Now, if someone can give me a good reason that has nothing to do with any religion why there shouldn't be alcohol sales on Sunday, then that's a whole new ballgame ... a reason why such laws benefit the entire community, even the non-Christian portion, and don't pose an undue hardship on non-Christians, including non-Christian liquor store owners. If the only justification is based on religion, it has no place in U.S. law.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    surferdude wrote:
    Look I don't agree with the law. It seems pretty stupid to me. But I think some people would be happy with a shut down of alcohol sales on Wednesdays but not Sundays. At least then they wouldn't think their constitutional rights were being abused.

    I think Hippiemom made a good example of what she was stating, but at the same time those laws were voted on by the people that live there.
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  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    gue_barium wrote:
    I think Hippiemom made a good example of what she was stating, but at the same time those laws were voted on by the people that live there.
    We do not have the right to force our religious beliefs on our fellow citizens, regardless of the degree to which we outnumber them. Why should a merchant who observes his sabbath on Friday, or observes no sabbath at all, have to close his shop on Sunday?
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    hippiemom wrote:
    We do not have the right to force our religious beliefs on our fellow citizens, regardless of the degree to which we outnumber them. Why should a merchant who observes his sabbath on Friday, or observes no sabbath at all, have to close his shop on Sunday?

    If you consider that alcohol was prohibited in this country at one time, it doesn't seem as extreme to me as it does to you. And your interpretation that it is solely a religious matter is kind of short-sighted. That shopkeeper wants his employees to get out of bed Monday morning to get to work, too.

    So, actually, your example is not so good, but fair game.
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  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    gue_barium wrote:
    If you consider that alcohol was prohibited in this country at one time, it doesn't seem as extreme to me as it does to you. And your interpretation that it is solely a religious matter is kind of short-sighted. That shopkeeper wants his employees to get out of bed Monday morning to get to work, too.
    I really don't see what prohibition has to do with it. We tried it, it was a miserable failure, and we amended our constitution to reflect that.

    The people who originally proposed the laws did so on religious grounds. It wasn't always just liquor stores ... in many places you weren't allowed to open any business at all on a Sunday ... but the liquor laws are the ones that have stuck.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    hippiemom wrote:
    I really don't see what prohibition has to do with it. We tried it, it was a miserable failure, and we amended our constitution to reflect that.

    The people who originally proposed the laws did so on religious grounds. It wasn't always just liquor stores ... in many places you weren't allowed to open any business at all on a Sunday ... but the liquor laws are the ones that have stuck.

    Prohibition was brought about by a lot of angry housewives who were tired of their husbands becoming worthless slobs. It had the support of people like Jack London, a good American atheist. On the issue of liquor, I think it's lawful inconveniences are more rooted in health than religion, regardless of who (or what group of people) began banning the sales on certain days (or altogether).
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  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    gue_barium wrote:
    Prohibition was brought about by a lot of angry housewives who were tired of their husbands becoming worthless slobs. It had the support of people like Jack London, a good American atheist. On the issue of liquor, I think it's lawful inconveniences are more rooted in health than religion, regardless of who (or what group of people) began banning the sales on certain days (or altogether).
    So why Sunday? Why not Mondays and every third Thursday? What is the non-religious justification for Sunday as opposed to any other day?
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    hippiemom wrote:
    So why Sunday? Why not Mondays and every third Thursday? What is the non-religious justification for Sunday as opposed to any other day?
    I don't have that problem in Washington. Cheers. :)
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    except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
  • Alex_Coe
    Alex_Coe Posts: 762
    At the bottom of each paragraph there is written:

    "There is not even one generally accepted theory for (Creation of the universe, origin of DNA/RNA, origin of matter, etc. etc.)"

    Now, by that logic I could disprove religion! Watch:

    THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE GENERALLY ACCEPTED FAITH AMONG RELIGIOUS PEOPLE.


    Yeah, now the shoe is on the other foot.

    THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE GENERALLY ACCEPTED GOD AMONG RELIGIONS.

    Let's do it again:

    THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE GENERALLY ACCEPTED EXPLANATION OF THE AFTERLIFE IN ANY RELIGION.

    Now, I'm not making fun of religion, but you can see how this logic isn't foolproof.
  • callen
    callen Posts: 6,388
    surferdude wrote:
    You are reading much into the law that is not there. The law prohibits alcohol sales during certain times. How does this either establish Christianity, or prohibite the free exercise of any other religion? Please stick to the actual law.
    I'm not sure you can justify the restriction of aclohal sales as a Christian belief. Seems like a far stretch.
    Sunday morning...coincidence???
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    surferdude wrote:
    You are reading much into the law that is not there. The law prohibits alcohol sales during certain times. How does this either establish Christianity, or prohibite the free exercise of any other religion? Please stick to the actual law.
    I'm not sure you can justify the restriction of aclohal sales as a Christian belief. Seems like a far stretch.
    callen wrote:
    Sunday morning...coincidence???
    How does it establish Christianity?

    If it establishes Christianity then you'd have to argue that legalizing pot establishes Rastafariasm.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    surferdude wrote:
    How does it establish Christianity?

    If it establishes Christianity then you'd have to argue that legalizing pot establishes Rastafariasm.
    If the only plausible reason you could come up with for legalizing pot was a belief in Rastafarianism, then yes, you would have to argue that. Fortunately for the legalization movement, it's rather easy to come up with other reasons.

    What is the non-Christian argument in favor of closing liquor stores on Sunday?
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963

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