why do you believe in God or...

deadnothingbetter

gue_barium wrote:

Er, who are you replying to who just posted a few minutes ago? Twice!

Now three times.

I like threes.

Trinity.

oh, ok... so i guess you were trying to jump in the conversation, i gather.

gue_barium

I guess this piece isn't an entire failure.

Now I know why Jesus wept.

soulsinging

chopitdown wrote:

Jesus HAS to be the only way b/c that is how God set it up. God could have set it up any way he wanted and this is the way he chose. At first that sounds like a cop out..

which is what i've been saying and deadnothing has been denying for page upon page. nice to see a christian willing to be honest and forthright instead of dodging the question and playing semantics.

chopitdown wrote:

Here are a few references that attempt to explain the significance of why Jesus was used. There were prophecies that had to be fulfilled and there were also similarities to the "cleansing" procedure used in the OT. This ( http://mb-soft.com/believe/txh/proph.htm ) is a list of the prophecies fulfilled by jesus.

here's another longer explanation of why Jesus (not mine, found it online)...

Multiple reasons exist for Jesus Christ's sacrifice of Himself on Calvary. This answer will use the book of Hebrews to explain only a few of the major reasons why Jesus was a sacrifice.

The blood shed by bulls and goats under Moses delayed God's wrath against sin (Hebrews 9:6-10). An animal's blood had to be endlessly and repeatedly shed because it couldn't once for all remove sin (Hebrews 10:1-4, 11). Their blood could cleanse the instruments and symbols of forgiveness, but only human blood could cleanse human beings (Hebrews 9:18-23).

Christ, however, singly, solely, by himself alone had sufficient worth to die in place of every mortal in history. Everything prior to Him was preparatory to His perfect sacrifice. This is true by virtue of:

* His deity (Hebrews 1:8-9).
* His acceptance of suffering to be made perfect (Hebrews 2:10, 5:8-9).
* His personal superiority to Moses (Hebrews 3:1-6).
* His ability to provide an eternal Sabbath rest for God's people (Hebrews 4:9). God's call of Him as a priest in the order of Melchizedek (Hebrews 5:1-6, 7:1-22).
* His establishment of an eternal priesthood (Hebrews 7:23-28).
* His presence at God's right hand as eternal priest, after offering a perfect sacrifice (Hebrews 1:3, 8:1-2)
* His superiority to the Aaronic priesthood of animal sacrifices (Hebrews 8:3-13).
* His ability to carry the results of his sacrifice into Heaven itself, not merely into the Holy of Holies (Hebrews 9:11-14, 23-25).
* His once-for-all-perfect sacrifice for sins (Hebrews 9:25-10:4).
* His willingness to be the sacrifice, not merely to offer one (Hebrews 10:1-10).

Jesus was a sacrifice because only His blood could roll backwards to the first sinner and forward to the last. Whatever temporary measure God used before Christ in history to secure forgiveness, He alone was eternally slain in God's mind as the perfect sacrifice for sin. That's why death exalted Jesus from being a mortal Jew, to being the universal Lord.

Jesus was a sacrifice because - when God tore the veil in two from top to bottom when Jesus died - it meant that Christ's death opened an unobstructed way to God (Matthew 27:51). Before, only the high priest could enter the Holy of Holies (only once a year), and never without blood to cover his personal and national sins. Hebrews 9:7 says, "But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance."

Jesus was a sacrifice because God honored it alone - of all the sacrifices ever offered - with the victory of bodily resurrection. That single success illuminated the cross as an object of pleasure for us and victory for Christ. That's why Paul noted that Christ's death made a spectacle of all opposition to God (Colossians 2:15). The Roman conquest of Antonia fortress in late July, A.D. 70, and the entire city a month later, eliminating the daily sacrifice, made no difference whatever to God's will. No further sacrifice was needed. Christ's own perfect sacrifice forty years before not only eliminated the temple's relevance, but received God's imprimatur three days later.

this looks like a real, legit answer to the questions i've been asking. ill look forward to reading it when i get home later.

soulsinging

deadnothingbetter wrote:

i'm not following you clearly.

but what i can gather, i guess you're saying that buddha, allah (which actually means god, it's all the same god, same god of abraham, same god of isaac, just so you know) vishnu, or krishna, or john lennon, or mother theresa, or ghandi are fellas that can lead me to salvation. or that maybe god can forgive us for thinking that they lead to salvation.

well, like i said before, biblically speaking it doesn't work that way because these fellas didn't rescue us from death.... that is to say they didn't resurrect from the dead so that we too could participate in that gift. in other words, our salvation wouldn't be legitimate... we'd still have the inheritance of adam.

im saying that if god wanted to, he could allow faith in them to cleanse us of sin and rescue us from death and bring us to salvation. but god decided only jesus could do so.

this is the closest i've seen you come to a real answer. i see some logic in the "breaking the chains of death thing" for why jesus is different. but i'm not entirely convinced that should be a necessary condition for an all-powerful god. it's my chief problem with christianity... god is too human and even if you can extract a coherent logic from the bible, it is as full of technicalities as human legal systems. that doesn't jive with my concept of god. i think i'm beginning to see your logic, and maybe (accepting what you say as true) god isn't an asshole, but he still seems overly fond of bewildering and random rule-making.

soulsinging

deadnothingbetter wrote:

yeah, sure, god could've decided another way to get to heaven. just like in the old testament.... in hebrews it says, "god who in times past spoke to our forefathers through miracles, signs and wonders..." meaning, God tried in a whole lotta billion different ways to change men's hearts.... but it didn't work. God can't force somebody to believe in him. plain and simple. you have a hard time understanding that. because you say that he's all-knowing and all-powerful. beats me.

im not at all having a hard time with that. how many times have i said the issue is not god forcing someone to believe? my point was billions of people DO believe without force, but will still go to hell. becos, as you acknowledge, god decided there was only one way to heaven... jesus.

now, im no god, but it seems to me that if you're having a tough time getting through to people, your best bet to reach them is to be open to who they are and how they express their belief, rather than restricting their options to only one. seems to me if god loved us, he would accept us for who we are and allow our devotion to take whatever form comes most naturally to us as long as it is directed to him (whatever name you call him by). he could arrange it to allow us to break the bonds of death and satan through our worship of buddha just as easily as jesus if he wanted... becos he is god. but he chose jesus and only jesus. maybe it's not outright vain and cruel, but it's a far cry from loving acceptance and forgiveness.

soulsinging

chopitdown wrote:

Jesus HAS to be the only way b/c that is how God set it up. God could have set it up any way he wanted and this is the way he chose. At first that sounds like a cop out. Here are a few references that attempt to explain the significance of why Jesus was used. There were prophecies that had to be fulfilled and there were also similarities to the "cleansing" procedure used in the OT. This ( http://mb-soft.com/believe/txh/proph.htm ) is a list of the prophecies fulfilled by jesus.

here's another longer explanation of why Jesus (not mine, found it online)...

Multiple reasons exist for Jesus Christ's sacrifice of Himself on Calvary. This answer will use the book of Hebrews to explain only a few of the major reasons why Jesus was a sacrifice.

The blood shed by bulls and goats under Moses delayed God's wrath against sin (Hebrews 9:6-10). An animal's blood had to be endlessly and repeatedly shed because it couldn't once for all remove sin (Hebrews 10:1-4, 11). Their blood could cleanse the instruments and symbols of forgiveness, but only human blood could cleanse human beings (Hebrews 9:18-23).

Christ, however, singly, solely, by himself alone had sufficient worth to die in place of every mortal in history. Everything prior to Him was preparatory to His perfect sacrifice. This is true by virtue of:

* His deity (Hebrews 1:8-9).
* His acceptance of suffering to be made perfect (Hebrews 2:10, 5:8-9).
* His personal superiority to Moses (Hebrews 3:1-6).
* His ability to provide an eternal Sabbath rest for God's people (Hebrews 4:9). God's call of Him as a priest in the order of Melchizedek (Hebrews 5:1-6, 7:1-22).
* His establishment of an eternal priesthood (Hebrews 7:23-28).
* His presence at God's right hand as eternal priest, after offering a perfect sacrifice (Hebrews 1:3, 8:1-2)
* His superiority to the Aaronic priesthood of animal sacrifices (Hebrews 8:3-13).
* His ability to carry the results of his sacrifice into Heaven itself, not merely into the Holy of Holies (Hebrews 9:11-14, 23-25).
* His once-for-all-perfect sacrifice for sins (Hebrews 9:25-10:4).
* His willingness to be the sacrifice, not merely to offer one (Hebrews 10:1-10).

Jesus was a sacrifice because only His blood could roll backwards to the first sinner and forward to the last. Whatever temporary measure God used before Christ in history to secure forgiveness, He alone was eternally slain in God's mind as the perfect sacrifice for sin. That's why death exalted Jesus from being a mortal Jew, to being the universal Lord.

Jesus was a sacrifice because - when God tore the veil in two from top to bottom when Jesus died - it meant that Christ's death opened an unobstructed way to God (Matthew 27:51). Before, only the high priest could enter the Holy of Holies (only once a year), and never without blood to cover his personal and national sins. Hebrews 9:7 says, "But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance."

Jesus was a sacrifice because God honored it alone - of all the sacrifices ever offered - with the victory of bodily resurrection. That single success illuminated the cross as an object of pleasure for us and victory for Christ. That's why Paul noted that Christ's death made a spectacle of all opposition to God (Colossians 2:15). The Roman conquest of Antonia fortress in late July, A.D. 70, and the entire city a month later, eliminating the daily sacrifice, made no difference whatever to God's will. No further sacrifice was needed. Christ's own perfect sacrifice forty years before not only eliminated the temple's relevance, but received God's imprimatur three days later.

i can see this in terms of consistency with old testament law and christian theology. but that almost reinforces my case becos it backs up the god of the old testament... a very vain and petty good who loves to play favorites (with his chosen people) and whatnot. it offers a sensible explanation of god honoring his past covenant with the jews, but what about non-jews? does god not love them? it seems rather cruel to bind the entire world to promises he made only to a select few of his favorites. he might offer salvation to anyone through jesus, but it's still on the jews' terms.

chopitdown

soulsinging wrote:

i can see this in terms of consistency with old testament law and christian theology. but that almost reinforces my case becos it backs up the god of the old testament... a very vain and petty good who loves to play favorites (with his chosen people) and whatnot. it offers a sensible explanation of god honoring his past covenant with the jews, but what about non-jews? does god not love them? it seems rather cruel to bind the entire world to promises he made only to a select few of his favorites. he might offer salvation to anyone through jesus, but it's still on the jews' terms.

I think the symbolism of the cross and jesus is that after Jesus died the opportunity is available to jew and gentile. He does have his so called chosen people, but he extended the opportunity for salvation to all. It would somewhat agree with your def of a vain and petty god (God is admittedly a jealous God (per OT)) but as soon as the salvation opportunity was made open to everyone he becomes all inviting. The bible says God wishes that none would perish, and since we haven't chatted face to face, I'll have to take him at his word. There are those that b/c of that verse feel that there is universal salvation; and there are others who don't feel that way chiefly b/c of "I am the way the truth and the life no man comes to the father but through me". I found a book, as i posted somewhere in here earlier, called the difficult doctrine of love...your university may have it (i'm sure as a law student you have all sorts of time to read extra books ) I hope this helps somewhat.

deadnothingbetter

soulsinging wrote:

which is what i've been saying and deadnothing has been denying for page upon page. nice to see a christian willing to be honest and forthright instead of dodging the question and playing semantics.

i never denied that. i never denied that jesus had to be the only way.

deadnothingbetter

soulsinging wrote:

im saying that if god wanted to, he could allow faith in them to cleanse us of sin and rescue us from death and bring us to salvation. but god decided only jesus could do so.

this is the closest i've seen you come to a real answer. i see some logic in the "breaking the chains of death thing" for why jesus is different. but i'm not entirely convinced that should be a necessary condition for an all-powerful god. it's my chief problem with christianity... god is too human and even if you can extract a coherent logic from the bible, it is as full of technicalities as human legal systems. that doesn't jive with my concept of god. i think i'm beginning to see your logic, and maybe (accepting what you say as true) god isn't an asshole, but he still seems overly fond of bewildering and random rule-making.

maybe you just have a hard time believing that jesus actually achieved a pure life. if you believe that, you wouldn't have a hard time believing that God's justice is fair.

however, i thought i did mention that jesus achieved a perfect life and died on the cross and rose from the grave somewhere on there... all well. sorry if i didn't.

i know you'll probably live out the rest of your life believing that the biblical God is vain, petty and arbitrary and i'll never try to restrict you from believing it. the bible itself says that there are people who curse God's judgements and Paul speaks on numerous occasions that God's justice is like foolishness to men. so i won't deny it from you.

the main reason why God did it this way through Jesus was because he wanted to show and prove that humans are capable of living a perfect life, because that's what he created them for. his bewildering and random rule-making came with the whole mix up with the israelites and all... but now it's all basically it's all just about faith, hope and love... and all those things point to jesus. well, at least it does in the bible.

deadnothingbetter

soulsinging wrote:

im not at all having a hard time with that. how many times have i said the issue is not god forcing someone to believe? my point was billions of people DO believe without force, but will still go to hell. becos, as you acknowledge, god decided there was only one way to heaven... jesus.

now, im no god, but it seems to me that if you're having a tough time getting through to people, your best bet to reach them is to be open to who they are and how they express their belief, rather than restricting their options to only one. seems to me if god loved us, he would accept us for who we are and allow our devotion to take whatever form comes most naturally to us as long as it is directed to him (whatever name you call him by). he could arrange it to allow us to break the bonds of death and satan through our worship of buddha just as easily as jesus if he wanted... becos he is god. but he chose jesus and only jesus. maybe it's not outright vain and cruel, but it's a far cry from loving acceptance and forgiveness.

well, how cool that would be if God didn't just have only one begotten son. it would be cool if buddha too was god's begotten son that was raised from the dead just as well. yeah, i would agree. but unfortunately the bible doesn't give us that option. is God cruel for setting it up that way? i don't think so. i have my personal beliefs, but it would mean for me to go much deeper into this particular discussion and i don't want to get into the theology of it.

catefrances

deadnothingbetter wrote:

maybe you just have a hard time believing that jesus actually achieved a pure life. if you believe that, you wouldn't have a hard time believing that God's justice is fair.

however, i thought i did mention that jesus achieved a perfect life and died on the cross and rose from the grave somewhere on there... all well. sorry if i didn't.

i know you'll probably live out the rest of your life believing that the biblical God is vain, petty and arbitrary and i'll never try to restrict you from believing it. the bible itself says that there are people who curse God's judgements and Paul speaks on numerous occasions that God's justice is like foolishness to men. so i won't deny it from you.

the main reason why God did it this way through Jesus was because he wanted to show and prove that humans are capable of living a perfect life, because that's what he created them for. his bewildering and random rule-making came with the whole mix up with the israelites and all... but now it's all basically it's all just about faith, hope and love... and all those things point to jesus. well, at least it does in the bible.

i have no trouble believing that jesus led a pure life. that he practised all that he preached. but i do have a major problem, as you know, with the existence of God.

gue_barium

let the dead bury the dead.

deadnothingbetter

catefrances wrote:

i have no trouble believing that jesus led a pure life. that he practised all that he preached. but i do have a major problem, as you know, with the existence of God.

well... i can't help you with that. really, i can't help anybody with anything so why am i bothering :rolleyes: j/k i understand you though. maybe why not try looking into jesus more so that maybe he can lead you to god? i dunno... just a thought.

hippiemom

chopitdown wrote:

The blood shed by bulls and goats under Moses delayed God's wrath against sin (Hebrews 9:6-10). An animal's blood had to be endlessly and repeatedly shed because it couldn't once for all remove sin (Hebrews 10:1-4, 11). Their blood could cleanse the instruments and symbols of forgiveness, but only human blood could cleanse human beings (Hebrews 9:18-23).

Wow. There is absolutely no way I could ever believe in a supposedly divine being calling for the deaths of his own innocent creations for any reason. I'm not saying I'd dislike him, or turn against him ... but that there's no possible way I could ever believe that such a being even exists in the first place. That's something only humans could come up with, there's nothing remotely "divine" about it. It's disgusting.

hippiemom

deadnothingbetter wrote:

is God cruel for setting it up that way? i don't think so.

I bet you'd feel differently if you'd been born to Muslim parents in a country where 98% of the people were Muslim and denying Islam could get you killed if it even crossed your mind to do it, which it probably wouldn't ... then you died and wound up in hell despite your life of pious devotion. You might think that was something of a dirty trick.

gue_barium

hippiemom wrote:

I bet you'd feel differently if you'd been born to Muslim parents in a country where 98% of the people were Muslim and denying Islam could get you killed if it even crossed your mind to do it, which it probably wouldn't ... then you died and wound up in hell despite your life of pious devotion. You might think that was something of a dirty trick.

Oh yes, tricks, illusions, this is what makes the earth rotate.

gue_barium

"Borrowed" free will is not free will at all.

Discuss.

catefrances

deadnothingbetter wrote:

well... i can't help you with that. really, i can't help anybody with anything so why am i bothering :rolleyes: j/k i understand you though. maybe why not try looking into jesus more so that maybe he can lead you to god? i dunno... just a thought.

i know you can't. i was just showing how for some, the two can be mutually exclusive. even atheists.
and i don't feel i need to find God. and seeings how i believe him to be non existent, it is a futile exercise on my part. i don't need a God in my life to lead a righteous life.

prism

catefrances wrote:

i know you can't. i was just showing how for some, the two can be mutually exclusive. even atheists.
and i don't feel i need to find God. and seeings how i believe him to be non existent, it is a futile exercise on my part. i don't need a God in my life to lead a righteous life.

Amen

gue_barium

deadnothingbetter wrote:

well... i can't help you with that. really, i can't help anybody with anything so why am i bothering :rolleyes: j/k i understand you though. maybe why not try looking into jesus more so that maybe he can lead you to god? i dunno... just a thought.

Hey Dead, tell me what's wrong about believing in yourself.