Well that is negotiable, but what we need to do is get to the point where we can discuss these things without being completely polarized on either end of the spectrum.
see here's the thing ahnimus. unless you've been pregnant you have no idea what it's like to be confronted by this decision. oh sure your partner can become pregnant due to your input but it's hardly the same. to know that a life is growing inside you and to know that you can not give it what is required. and then to make that final decision. it's all on the woman. all of it. the partner can say whatever platitudes he likes but unless you can give 100% sureity(which you can't) then you give nothing.
hear my name
take a good look
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hold my hand
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see here's the thing ahnimus. unless you've been pregnant you have no idea what it's like to be confronted by this decision..
I disagree, and quite honestly, that argument is getting old.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
yes as old as time itself.
it's the one only thing men can not control. and yet still they try by inforcing their morality on woman.
What? Men can't control what happens to their offspring, ever!
It's always the woman's choice.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I'm not understanding why you are disagreeing with me, any of you.
How many people here want to abort a 23 week old fetus with no complications?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I so want to spend the time reading this thread, catching up and posting but I've gotta fly out the door!! Bugger!! Try not to kill each other while I'm gone? I'll be back to check on your work!! :D:D:D:D
hey i can play sports(most not very well mind you) however you'll never be able to squirt out a baby...so there
no you cannot. you think you can. you pretend you are becos you know the rules. but what you're doing is about as much playing sports as a man wearing one of those fake bellies is pregnant.
Shouldn't difficulties with polymerazation be discovered earlier?
How is it that these processes work fine until late in the pregnancy and then spontaneously occur?
In those cases they would in-fact fall under "extenuating circumstances" and be acceptable. I'm not saying it should be outlawed. I'm saying a woman carrying a healthy baby at 23 weeks shouldn't be given an abortion. It may not happen very often anyway, but I don't think it should happen at all. Unless there is a really good reason.
I don't get your point about vitamin C. Most fetal defects are not caused by teteragens and irresponsible pregnant women. They just happen spontaneously. And no, they don't "spontaneously occur" later in pregnancy, but they usually aren't discovered until later.
Let's face it, it's kind of hard to see a major heart defect or missing kidneys when you're doing a level 1 ultrasound on a fetus the size of a freaking walnut. Half the time they can't even say for sure if it's got a penis or a vagina. But they're supposed to be able to count the number of heart chambers? GMAB.
When things are detected is almost entirely up to the medical community, not the pg woman in question. Go try to get an amnio at 10 weeks, just try it. Oh wait, you won't have that problem. Try to get a level 2 ultrasound when you are under the age your insurance provider deems "high-risk." Oh, wait, you won't have that problem either. My point is, don't blame pregnant women when THEIR DOCTORS fail to catch severe defects prior to 23 weeks. Hey, it happens. But you can relax because the majority of severe defects are caught between 19 and 22 weeks.
Hmm, that's still pretty late though so I think I'll stick with keeping late term abortion safe and legal. While I'm at it, I'll keep it legal for ALL women, not only those who have extremely unhealthy fetuses. Because again, who decides? Again, Rick Santorum thinks Anencephaly is the cats pajamas. So lets leave it up to the people who are pregnant.
The kids of today should defend themselves against the Seventies Nineties.
no you cannot. you think you can. you pretend you are becos you know the rules. but what you're doing is about as much playing sports as a man wearing one of those fake bellies is pregnant.
I can too! though i suppose it depends on the sport. but not even one of those fools with the fake bellies can squirt a baby out of their cootchie
I don't get your point about vitamin C. Most fetal defects are not caused by teteragens and irresponsible pregnant women. They just happen spontaneously. And no, they don't "spontaneously occur" later in pregnancy, but they usually aren't discovered until later.
Let's face it, it's kind of hard to see a major heart defect or missing kidneys when you're doing a level 1 ultrasound on a fetus the size of a freaking walnut. Half the time they can't even say for sure if it's got a penis or a vagina. But they're supposed to be able to count the number of heart chambers? GMAB.
When things are detected is almost entirely up to the medical community, not the pg woman in question. Go try to get an amnio at 10 weeks, just try it. Oh wait, you won't have that problem. Try to get a level 2 ultrasound when you are under the age your insurance provider deems "high-risk." Oh, wait, you won't have that problem either. My point is, don't blame pregnant women when THEIR DOCTORS fail to catch severe defects prior to 23 weeks. Hey, it happens. But you can relax because the majority of severe defects are caught between 19 and 22 weeks.
Hmm, that's still pretty late though so I think I'll stick with keeping late term abortion safe and legal. While I'm at it, I'll keep it legal for ALL women, not only those who have extremely unhealthy fetuses. Because again, who decides? Again, Rick Santorum thinks Anencephaly is the cats pajamas. So lets leave it up to the people who are pregnant.
So, just let any woman terminate a human being late in pregnancy, instead of putting limitations on it.
You haven't provided any logic as to why that should be acceptable. We got that difficulties may occur and in those cases it's ok, but how can you justify the rest. I know they are few and far between, but they still occur and you would allow that to continue?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I can too! though i suppose it depends on the sport. but not even one of those fools with the fake bellies can squirt a baby out of their cootchie
have you seen the wnba? it's about as exciting as watching your local elementary school team.
but i was thinking more about the double standard that women can never express any sort of opinion during a pregnancy, but if a woman cheats on her husband and then leaves him, he still has to pay for her children. does the child only become his once it's out?
So, just let any woman terminate a human being late in pregnancy, instead of putting limitations on it.
You haven't provided any logic as to why that should be acceptable. We got that difficulties may occur and in those cases it's ok, but how can you justify the rest. I know they are few and far between, but they still occur and you would allow that to continue?
That's a fair question. Here is why I would keep it legal: Because I TRUST WOMEN. Yes, I trust them. I trust them to know when they can't handle pregnancy or motherhood. The bald fact that the vast majority of abortions take place in the first 8 weeks, (yes, 8 weeks, not even 12!) tells me that most women are pretty quick and sure about their choice.
The fact that you just don't see women waddling up to the abortion clinic in maternity dresses asking to have healthy near-term fetuses aborted because they had a little spat with their boyfriend, or because they had a bad hair day, or because they found out it was a boy and they wanted a girl, or any other frivolous reason ... well, that makes me TRUST WOMEN.
If you can't trust us with a choice, how can you trust us with a child?
So why leave it open? Because there will always be that woman who's doctor is pro-life and doesn't want to see ANY fetus aborted, even the one with Trisomy 13 and its ears on its neck and one eye in the middle of his forehead (yes, it happens! It's called cyclopia. Google that if you've the stomach for it.) So if a woman must have a doctor's approval on what's an abortable fetus, she is screwed. So we've got to go all the way to healthy ... I'm sorry about that, but we do.
However, I'm okay with going all the way to healthy for the reason stated above: I trust women. I trust them not to have late term abortions on healthy fetuses unless they are in some truly dire circumstance.
And you know what? Statistics prove that they don't.
The kids of today should defend themselves against the Seventies Nineties.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
have you seen the wnba? it's about as exciting as watching your local elementary school team.
but i was thinking more about the double standard that women can never express any sort of opinion during a pregnancy, but if a woman cheats on her husband and then leaves him, he still has to pay for her children. does the child only become his once it's out?
he still has to pay for her children? am I right to assume that these children aren't his but hers from a previous relationship? I've always thought that it was stupid and rediculous that sometimes men have to pay child support for kids that aren't even their own if they are seperated from the Mom, but once the divorce is finalized those child-support orders are dropped.
a man doesn't have to pay child support until the child is born, provided that the kid proves to be his.
he still has to pay for her children? am I right to assume that these children aren't his but hers from a previous relationship? I've always thought that it was stupid and rediculous that sometimes men have to pay child support for kids that aren't even their own if they are seperated from the Mom, but once the divorce is finalized those child-support orders are dropped.
a man doesn't have to pay child support until the child is born, provided that the kid proves to be his.
I'm not very sympathetic to men having to pay child support. It's just money. There is so much more involved in child rearing, so much emotion, so much cleaning up vomit in the middle of the night ... so a guy has to cut some piddling check. It's just money.
There is no amount of money that matches the commitment and work of actually parenting a child.
The kids of today should defend themselves against the Seventies Nineties.
he still has to pay for her children? am I right to assume that these children aren't his but hers from a previous relationship? I've always thought that it was stupid and rediculous that sometimes men have to pay child support for kids that aren't even their own if they are seperated from the Mom, but once the divorce is finalized those child-support orders are dropped.
a man doesn't have to pay child support until the child is born, provided that the kid proves to be his.
well regardless, they'd be HER children becos HE didnt give birth to them, right?
I figured as much. Well, I don't trust men more than women. I think that's kind of myopic.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
no you cannot. you think you can. you pretend you are becos you know the rules. but what you're doing is about as much playing sports as a man wearing one of those fake bellies is pregnant.
say that to the williams sisters........as i am sure either one of em could easily kick yer arse in almost any sport. this is one of the most utterly ridiculous 'arguements' i've seen sprout up in an abortion thread....so i guess that's somethin'. PLENTY of women can, and do play...and play well. if one want's to disagree with that...c'est la vie...but it does not change what is. many like to 'think' they know better than most others....doesn't make it true.
and back on the real topic....i am pro-choice, but i do not agree with late-term abortion unless the mother's life is at risk. i think a woman can make her mind whether she wants to terminate her pregnancy WAY earlier than the third trimester, and a fetus IS far developed, can feel pain, etc at that point...so while i believe it IS a woman's right to choose overall if she wants to follow through with a pregnancy or not..i do agree with time limits simply b/c it is the most humane thing to do, and there is no reason for one to wait so long to abort beyond health risks.
say that to the williams sisters........as i am sure either one of em could easily kick yer arse in almost any sport. this is one of the most utterly ridiculous 'arguements' i've seen sprout up in an abortion thread....so i guess that's somethin'. PLENTY of women can, and do play...and play well. if one want's to disagree with that...c'est la vie...but it does not change what is. many like to 'think' they know better than most others....doesn't make it true.
it was intended to show the ridiculousness in discounting men's contributions to child-rearing. the last time i checked, no woman can give birth without a man.
Wow, you didn't catch the little winky emoticon that indicated I was being facetious? So now I'm myopic? Da- amn.
Don't try all that complicated social junk with me. My social interplay cortex is damaged or underdeveloped.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Comments
see here's the thing ahnimus. unless you've been pregnant you have no idea what it's like to be confronted by this decision. oh sure your partner can become pregnant due to your input but it's hardly the same. to know that a life is growing inside you and to know that you can not give it what is required. and then to make that final decision. it's all on the woman. all of it. the partner can say whatever platitudes he likes but unless you can give 100% sureity(which you can't) then you give nothing.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I disagree, and quite honestly, that argument is getting old.
yes as old as time itself.
it's the one only thing men can not control. and yet still they try by inforcing their morality on woman.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
What? Men can't control what happens to their offspring, ever!
It's always the woman's choice.
How many people here want to abort a 23 week old fetus with no complications?
men can't force their will on women is all i'm saying.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
that's cool. ill let you have that one as long as you chicks reciprocate and stop pretending you can play sports.
ouch!!
sport is just war in microcosm anyway. you can have it machoman.
except of course test cricket. i don't know what the fuck that is.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
hey i can play sports(most not very well mind you) however you'll never be able to squirt out a baby...so there
angels share laughter
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
nothing to do with macho... it's pure biology.
no you cannot. you think you can. you pretend you are becos you know the rules. but what you're doing is about as much playing sports as a man wearing one of those fake bellies is pregnant.
Let's face it, it's kind of hard to see a major heart defect or missing kidneys when you're doing a level 1 ultrasound on a fetus the size of a freaking walnut. Half the time they can't even say for sure if it's got a penis or a vagina. But they're supposed to be able to count the number of heart chambers? GMAB.
When things are detected is almost entirely up to the medical community, not the pg woman in question. Go try to get an amnio at 10 weeks, just try it. Oh wait, you won't have that problem. Try to get a level 2 ultrasound when you are under the age your insurance provider deems "high-risk." Oh, wait, you won't have that problem either. My point is, don't blame pregnant women when THEIR DOCTORS fail to catch severe defects prior to 23 weeks. Hey, it happens. But you can relax because the majority of severe defects are caught between 19 and 22 weeks.
Hmm, that's still pretty late though so I think I'll stick with keeping late term abortion safe and legal. While I'm at it, I'll keep it legal for ALL women, not only those who have extremely unhealthy fetuses. Because again, who decides? Again, Rick Santorum thinks Anencephaly is the cats pajamas. So lets leave it up to the people who are pregnant.
I can too! though i suppose it depends on the sport. but not even one of those fools with the fake bellies can squirt a baby out of their cootchie
angels share laughter
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
So, just let any woman terminate a human being late in pregnancy, instead of putting limitations on it.
You haven't provided any logic as to why that should be acceptable. We got that difficulties may occur and in those cases it's ok, but how can you justify the rest. I know they are few and far between, but they still occur and you would allow that to continue?
have you seen the wnba? it's about as exciting as watching your local elementary school team.
but i was thinking more about the double standard that women can never express any sort of opinion during a pregnancy, but if a woman cheats on her husband and then leaves him, he still has to pay for her children. does the child only become his once it's out?
The fact that you just don't see women waddling up to the abortion clinic in maternity dresses asking to have healthy near-term fetuses aborted because they had a little spat with their boyfriend, or because they had a bad hair day, or because they found out it was a boy and they wanted a girl, or any other frivolous reason ... well, that makes me TRUST WOMEN.
If you can't trust us with a choice, how can you trust us with a child?
So why leave it open? Because there will always be that woman who's doctor is pro-life and doesn't want to see ANY fetus aborted, even the one with Trisomy 13 and its ears on its neck and one eye in the middle of his forehead (yes, it happens! It's called cyclopia. Google that if you've the stomach for it.) So if a woman must have a doctor's approval on what's an abortable fetus, she is screwed. So we've got to go all the way to healthy ... I'm sorry about that, but we do.
However, I'm okay with going all the way to healthy for the reason stated above: I trust women. I trust them not to have late term abortions on healthy fetuses unless they are in some truly dire circumstance.
And you know what? Statistics prove that they don't.
he still has to pay for her children? am I right to assume that these children aren't his but hers from a previous relationship? I've always thought that it was stupid and rediculous that sometimes men have to pay child support for kids that aren't even their own if they are seperated from the Mom, but once the divorce is finalized those child-support orders are dropped.
a man doesn't have to pay child support until the child is born, provided that the kid proves to be his.
angels share laughter
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
There is no amount of money that matches the commitment and work of actually parenting a child.
well regardless, they'd be HER children becos HE didnt give birth to them, right?
I figured as much. Well, I don't trust men more than women. I think that's kind of myopic.
say that to the williams sisters........as i am sure either one of em could easily kick yer arse in almost any sport. this is one of the most utterly ridiculous 'arguements' i've seen sprout up in an abortion thread....so i guess that's somethin'.
and back on the real topic....i am pro-choice, but i do not agree with late-term abortion unless the mother's life is at risk. i think a woman can make her mind whether she wants to terminate her pregnancy WAY earlier than the third trimester, and a fetus IS far developed, can feel pain, etc at that point...so while i believe it IS a woman's right to choose overall if she wants to follow through with a pregnancy or not..i do agree with time limits simply b/c it is the most humane thing to do, and there is no reason for one to wait so long to abort beyond health risks.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
that's right. we birthed them. we own them. that's why your momma owns you.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
it was intended to show the ridiculousness in discounting men's contributions to child-rearing. the last time i checked, no woman can give birth without a man.
Don't try all that complicated social junk with me. My social interplay cortex is damaged or underdeveloped.