Abortion

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  • geniegenie Posts: 2,222
    Ahnimus wrote:
    So, just to clarify, if a 5 year old boy's mother abandons him. We should terminate the boy's life so that he doesn't wonder "Why mom left me?".

    i knew some posts like that were going to come up..

    you just putting my words into different situation.

    women have a right to choose when they are PREGNANT.
  • geniegenie Posts: 2,222
    Dog Loyal wrote:
    Since when is a 5 yo equal to a fetus?

    very good point! :)
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Dog Loyal wrote:
    Since when is a 5 yo equal to a fetus?

    At any rate, it's a silly argument since post-first-trimester abortions are extremely rare and usually involve either very young teens (who may not have even realized they were pregnant until they were farther along) and married women with planned pregnancies who get the terrible news that their unborn has severe or lethal defects and will suffer greatly.

    I've never met a woman who was at an obvious stage of pregnancy and had an abortion of a healthy fetus just because she didn't want it ... HAVE YOU?

    Here's why I'm for keeping late term abortion legal: http://www.aheartbreakingchoice.com/kansasstories.html

    Support the MaggotPunks! http://www.maggotpunks.com

    That's fine, it should be allowed under certain circumstances, but it shouldn't be allowed to just anyone.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • geniegenie Posts: 2,222
    Ahnimus wrote:
    but it shouldn't be allowed to just anyone.

    what exactly do you mean it "shouldn't be allowed just to anyone"?
  • Ahnimus wrote:
    That's fine, it should be allowed under certain circumstances, but it shouldn't be allowed to just anyone.
    Who decides which circumstances it should be allowed in, if not the person carrying the fetus?

    Because I don't want Rick Santorum making these decisions for us, just because he thinks it awesome to have a baby with anencephaly and watch it suffer and die, because that wins him big-ass brownie points with Jayzeus.
    The kids of today should defend themselves against the Seventies Nineties.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    genie wrote:
    what exactly do you mean it "shouldn't be allowed just to anyone"?

    Hey look, I'm all for aborting human life in the prenatal environment. But there is a line that shouldn't be crossed. To me that is the third trimester and I don't see how any rational individual can say otherwise. Certainly there are extenuating circumstances that would warrant such an operation. But in most pregnancies/abortions I don't feel that it's necissary. The decision to abort should have already been made and at that point I consider it murder.

    Women may argue "It's my body!". Yes, it's your body that is a vessel for another body, belonging to another being and that alone does not grant you authority over the other life. I support abortion within the first 10 weeks or less.

    It would seem we have those that do not condone abortion at all, and those that think it's ok to abort at any time. Few come to the middle to compromise and negotiate.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Dog Loyal wrote:
    Who decides which circumstances it should be allowed in, if not the person carrying the fetus?

    Because I don't want Rick Santorum making these decisions for us, just because he thinks it awesome to have a baby with anencephaly and watch it suffer and die, because that wins him big-ass brownie points with Jayzeus.

    That would fall into the catagory of "Extenuating Circumstances"

    But if I were a woman, that waited until my 7th month of pregnancy to 'decide' I don't want a child. It should not be available to me, under law, to terminate that life. It's already a viable human being.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    genie wrote:
    and i am completely with you. i'm not a scientist, and i don't know when alive being becomes a human being and starts to feel pain.....

    let me clarify it for you then. the instant the sperm and the egg come together. that's when a being becomes human.
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  • geniegenie Posts: 2,222
    let me clarify it for you then. the instant the sperm and the egg come together. that's when a being becomes human.

    and does it start to feel pain at that exact moment?
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Hey look, I'm all for aborting human life in the prenatal environment. But there is a line that shouldn't be crossed. To me that is the third trimester and I don't see how any rational individual can say otherwise. Certainly there are extenuating circumstances that would warrant such an operation. But in most pregnancies/abortions I don't feel that it's necissary. The decision to abort should have already been made and at that point I consider it murder.

    Women may argue "It's my body!". Yes, it's your body that is a vessel for another body, belonging to another being and that alone does not grant you authority over the other life. I support abortion within the first 10 weeks or less.

    It would seem we have those that do not condone abortion at all, and those that think it's ok to abort at any time. Few come to the middle to compromise and negotiate.

    so tell me ahnimus what would you call extenuating circumstances?
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  • Ahnimus wrote:
    Hey look, I'm all for aborting human life in the prenatal environment. But there is a line that shouldn't be crossed. To me that is the third trimester and I don't see how any rational individual can say otherwise. Certainly there are extenuating circumstances that would warrant such an operation. But in most pregnancies/abortions I don't feel that it's necissary. The decision to abort should have already been made and at that point I consider it murder.
    So, severe fetal defect and/or life of the mother are extenuating circumstances, yes? Then I think you missed my previous point, which was that women aren't having third trimester abortions otherwise. Face it, women get abortions because pregnancy/motherhood is not what they want. No woman in her right mind is going to go through 8 months of pregnancy and fly to Kansas to abort a healthy fetus for the thrill of it. It doesn't happen, so what is the point of arguing about it?
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Women may argue "It's my body!". Yes, it's your body that is a vessel for another body, belonging to another being and that alone does not grant you authority over the other life. I support abortion within the first 10 weeks or less.
    Yes, it does grant you authority. A woman will not get her level two ultrasound until at least 16 weeks, amnio results rarely come back before 18 weeks and even the rarer CVS chromo testing can't be done before 11 weeks.

    What is so magic at 10 weeks? The first trimester isn't even over until 12 weeks. A fetus can rarely survive even at 20 weeks, and that takes MASSIVE medical intervention.
    Ahnimus wrote:
    It would seem we have those that do not condone abortion at all, and those that think it's ok to abort at any time. Few come to the middle to compromise and negotiate.

    Because when we do, we are always asked to accept greater and greater restrictions. Right now, in most states, abortion is legal through 23 weeks. You'd like to lop that back to 10 weeks. Other people would like to lop that back to outlawing birth control pills because in some circumstances they might prevent a fertilized egg from implanting.

    So some of us on the pro-choice side are pretty damned leary of making concessions. Until we have UNIVERSAL birth control coverage available to all menstruating girls AND have definitive prenatal testing that can determine severe problems within the first few weeks AND have completely obliterated rape and sexual abuse ... well, we're going to be needing to keep abortion legal.
    The kids of today should defend themselves against the Seventies Nineties.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    genie wrote:
    and does it start to feel pain at that exact moment?

    In the sense that we attribute to pain. No.

    That begins within the third trimester. Which is where I am coming from. All that sensing and stuff happens in the third trimester when the fetus becomes viable.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    so tell me ahnimus what would you call extenuating circumstances?

    Terminal illnesses, life-threatening complications, severe defects (most of which should be detected earlier).
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • genie wrote:
    i knew some posts like that were going to come up..

    you just putting my words into different situation.

    women have a right to choose when they are PREGNANT.

    what happens when you add alcohol? that choice becomes a little more blurry i think...
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Dog Loyal wrote:
    What is so magic at 10 weeks? The first trimester isn't even over until 12 weeks. A fetus can rarely survive even at 20 weeks, and that takes MASSIVE medical intervention.

    The formation of organs, such as the heart and brain, human-like shape. All that stuff we associate with being a human being. Prior to that it's a mass of tissue.

    By 23 weeks, you have a fully viable human being, with at least the following developments:

    Heart
    Upper and Lower Limbs
    Eyes
    Teeth
    Genitalia
    Ear
    Central Nervous System
    http://www.cerebralpalsychildren.com/CP1.jpg

    Nothing happens afterwards that makes the fetus any more human. At that point I consider it murder.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • geniegenie Posts: 2,222
    Ahnimus wrote:
    In the sense that we attribute to pain. No.

    That begins within the third trimester. Which is where I am coming from. All that sensing and stuff happens in the third trimester when the fetus becomes viable.

    ok, thank you for letting me know. though i'm still sticking to what i said
  • geniegenie Posts: 2,222
    what happens when you add alcohol? that choice becomes a little more blurry i think...

    i don't think people in their right mind would make decisions under the influence of alcohol
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    what happens when you add alcohol? that choice becomes a little more blurry i think...

    i can tell you one of my children is the result of a drunken christmas night. she's now 18 years old.
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  • Ahnimus wrote:
    In the sense that we attribute to pain. No.

    That begins within the third trimester. Which is where I am coming from. All that sensing and stuff happens in the third trimester when the fetus becomes viable.
    Okay Ahnimus, because I like you (really) I am going to school you a little on late term abortion. Those stories you read about "partial birth" abortion and what not are hyperbole. The "scissor puncturing the head" bit is a rarely used method only done in extreme cases of hydrocephaly where the head is so greatly enlarged it cannot possibly pass through the cervix. Very rare for that method to be used.

    The majority of truly late term abortions are not AT ALL like earier abortions. Most are labor and delivery, which means the woman's labor is induced (often the fetal heart is stopped with an injection prior to -- depends on what state and the laws there, etc.) She delivers an intact baby. In the case of fetal defects, most mothers will hold, say goodbye to and have these babies buried.

    I am less familiar in with what happens in those much rarer cases where the fetus is normal but there were other extenuating circumstances (young age of the mother, rape or what have you). In any case, a simple injection to the heart stops it, so fetal pain is not a big concern.

    I have also heard that many doctors who perform later abortion that are not labor and delivery but dilation & extraction, will cut the umbilicus first. That is both human and, from a more practical standpoint, makes the job easier. Brutal, I know, but describe nearly any medical procedure and it's going to sound graphic.

    This is why I linked to that page of Kansas stories earlier. It is not some gruesome procedure, it's a lot like birth. But since people aren't going to get all excited and het up about something as mundane as an induced labor delivery, that isn't the story the anti-choice kooks want to told. I know you're a smart guy, so I hate to see you buying into that notion of great fetal suffering.
    The kids of today should defend themselves against the Seventies Nineties.
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    Ahnimus wrote:
    The formation of organs, such as the heart and brain, human-like shape. All that stuff we associate with being a human being. Prior to that it's a mass of tissue.

    doesn't make it any less human though does it?
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  • Ahnimus wrote:
    The formation of organs, such as the heart and brain, human-like shape. All that stuff we associate with being a human being. Prior to that it's a mass of tissue.

    By 23 weeks, you have a fully viable human being, with at least the following developments:

    Heart
    Upper and Lower Limbs
    Eyes
    Teeth
    Genitalia
    Ear
    Central Nervous System
    http://www.cerebralpalsychildren.com/CP1.jpg

    Nothing happens afterwards that makes the fetus any more human. At that point I consider it murder.
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Terminal illnesses, life-threatening complications, severe defects (most of which should be detected earlier).
    So if the fetus has a terminal illness or severe defect, it is not human?
    Or if the mother has a terminal illness or life threatening complication, the fetus is not human?

    Either it's human, or it's not. If we're going to say it's human and it's murder, than it's murder in all cases, not just the ones where we don't like the circumstances.

    I don't think it's murder. Murder is the illegal killing of another human. Abortion is legal.

    Also, if all of those development aren't complete until 23 weeks, what is your thinking when you say abortion should be illegal after only 10 weeks?
    The kids of today should defend themselves against the Seventies Nineties.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Dog Loyal wrote:
    Okay Ahnimus, because I like you (really) I am going to school you a little on late term abortion. Those stories you read about "partial birth" abortion and what not are hyperbole. The "scissor puncturing the head" bit is a rarely used method only done in extreme cases of hydrocephaly where the head is so greatly enlarged it cannot possibly pass through the cervix. Very rare for that method to be used.

    The majority of truly late term abortions are not AT ALL like earier abortions. Most are labor and delivery, which means the woman's labor is induced (often the fetal heart is stopped with an injection prior to -- depends on what state and the laws there, etc.) She delivers an intact baby. In the case of fetal defects, most mothers will hold, say goodbye to and have these babies buried.

    I am less familiar in with what happens in those much rarer cases where the fetus is normal but there were other extenuating circumstances (young age of the mother, rape or what have you). In any case, a simple injection to the heart stops it, so fetal pain is not a big concern.

    I have also heard that many doctors who perform later abortion that are not labor and delivery but dilation & extraction, will cut the umbilicus first. That is both human and, from a more practical standpoint, makes the job easier. Brutal, I know, but describe nearly any medical procedure and it's going to sound graphic.

    This is why I linked to that page of Kansas stories earlier. It is not some gruesome procedure, it's a lot like birth. But since people aren't going to get all excited and het up about something as mundane as an induced labor delivery, that isn't the story the anti-choice kooks want to told. I know you're a smart guy, so I hate to see you buying into that notion of great fetal suffering.

    No I agree with you, those are rare occurances. Often times these defects are the results of teratogens traversing the placenta, and these teratogens are likely the result of irresponsible child-carrying. So I mean, yes, it's a woman's body, and she chooses to contaminate the child she carries as well.

    So, if you are going to decide to have a baby, decide to quite drinking, smoking and taking drugs. Because when your 7 months into your pregnancy, you are likely to have complications that lead to abortion. Or just abort the child if you can't control your habits. Do it early though, don't wait until it's viable.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Personally, I think:

    A. It's human.
    B. It's okay to abort humans.
    The kids of today should defend themselves against the Seventies Nineties.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Dog Loyal wrote:
    So if the fetus has a terminal illness or severe defect, it is not human?
    Or if the mother has a terminal illness or life threatening complication, the fetus is not human?

    Either it's human, or it's not. If we're going to say it's human and it's murder, than it's murder in all cases, not just the ones where we don't like the circumstances.

    I don't think it's murder. Murder is the illegal killing of another human. Abortion is legal.

    Also, if all of those development aren't complete until 23 weeks, what is your thinking when you say abortion should be illegal after only 10 weeks?

    I said abortion should be legal within 10 weeks and no later.
    You are right, murder isn't the right word, murder is killing done with malice.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • I believe parents should have the right to abort up to 18 years of age.
    I really screwed that up. I really Schruted it.
  • catefrancescatefrances Posts: 29,003
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I said abortion should be legal within 10 weeks and no later.
    You are right, murder isn't the right word, murder is killing done with malice.

    malice aforethought even.

    when i was pregnant with my eldest daughter, it was not confirmed until week 9. so are you saying ahnimus that i should have had just ONE week in which to make the biggest decision of my life ?
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  • soulsingingsoulsinging Posts: 13,202
    malice aforethought even.

    when i was pregnant with my eldest daughter, it was not confirmed until week 9. so are you saying ahnimus that i should have had just ONE week in which to make the biggest decision of my life ?

    ah, mens rea... i loved criminal law.

    anyway, what's abortion?
  • Ahnimus wrote:
    No I agree with you, those are rare occurances. Often times these defects are the results of teratogens traversing the placenta, and these teratogens are likely the result of irresponsible child-carrying. So I mean, yes, it's a woman's body, and she chooses to contaminate the child she carries as well.

    So, if you are going to decide to have a baby, decide to quite drinking, smoking and taking drugs. Because when your 7 months into your pregnancy, you are likely to have complications that lead to abortion. Or just abort the child if you can't control your habits. Do it early though, don't wait until it's viable.

    No, you are wrong. Most fetal defects are NOT the result of teratogens! Most are caused by spontaneous chromosomal abnormalities. Many others are caused by spontaneous neural tube defects. Please, go look read some of the stories on this website http://www.aheartbreakingchoice.com. The vast majority of those women planned their pregnancies and were extremely careful about prenatal care, taking vitamins, not drinking or drugging, or even using prescription drugs. Really.

    It is devastating to learn your wanted baby has severe defects and it is just plain cruel to heap blame on the women that it happens to and call them irresponsible.

    Procreation is an imperfect process. That is not the fault of women who concieve severely defective fetuses.

    There is not a teratogen that causes Trisomy 13, Trisomy 18, Anencephaly, Skeletal Dysplasia or HLHS. These things just happen. Don't blame the mothers!
    The kids of today should defend themselves against the Seventies Nineties.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    malice aforethought even.

    when i was pregnant with my eldest daughter, it was not confirmed until week 9. so are you saying ahnimus that i should have had just ONE week in which to make the biggest decision of my life ?

    Well that is negotiable, but what we need to do is get to the point where we can discuss these things without being completely polarized on either end of the spectrum.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    Dog Loyal wrote:
    No, you are wrong. Most fetal defects are NOT the result of teratogens! Most are caused by spontaneous chromosomal abnormalities. Many others are caused by spontaneous neural tube defects. Please, go look read some of the stories on this website http://www.aheartbreakingchoice.com. The vast majority of those women planned their pregnancies and were extremely careful about prenatal care, taking vitamins, not drinking or drugging, or even using prescription drugs. Really.

    It is devastating to learn your wanted baby has severe defects and it is just plain cruel to heap blame on the women that it happens to and call them irresponsible.

    Procreation is an imperfect process. That is not the fault of women who concieve severely defective fetuses.

    There is not a teratogen that causes Trisomy 13, Trisomy 18, Anencephaly, Skeletal Dysplasia or HLHS. These things just happen. Don't blame the mothers!

    Vitamin C is a teratogen.

    So you blame myosis entirely for the defects?

    Shouldn't difficulties with polymerazation be discovered earlier?

    How is it that these processes work fine until late in the pregnancy and then spontaneously occur?

    In those cases they would in-fact fall under "extenuating circumstances" and be acceptable. I'm not saying it should be outlawed. I'm saying a woman carrying a healthy baby at 23 weeks shouldn't be given an abortion. It may not happen very often anyway, but I don't think it should happen at all. Unless there is a really good reason.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
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