crazy calif liberals won't let us beat our children

soulsinging

angelica wrote:

I think the problem comes in when people think since a two year old, for example, acts like a two year old, that they must be changed/stopped/controlled. And we just miss the point. In our own ignorance, we miss that it's normal and healthy for them to act like two year olds when that is in fact what they are. Therefore the more education, understanding and awareness we have, the more optimally OUR parenting issues will be managed--ie: with responsible effective parenting.

well that's what i said from the beginning. kids are not mini-adults and should not be treated as such. that does not, however, mean that we should never discpline them. they do need to learn appropriate ways of behavior with a gentle, but firm, hand.

gue_barium

cutback wrote:

And therein lies the problem with our government trying run our lives. The bullshit law has nothing to do with protecting children.

I see that problem, too. The law is almost like a warning to those truly abusive parents. To hold caution on the abuses of their children; more hidden.

transplant

thankyougrandma wrote:

Exactly, i'd say that in most case it's mostly a reaction that a parents will (in mose case) regret, but it's not criminal at all. Spanking your kids every day of the week become a criminal act though...

No question about that.

NMyTree

angelica wrote:

I think the problem comes in when people think since a two year old, for example, acts like a two year old, that they must be changed/stopped/controlled. And we just miss the point. In our own ignorance, we miss that it's normal and healthy for them to act like two year olds when that is in fact what they are.

Bravo!

I have routinely and repeatidly argued with my sons' mom on this point.

They are two year olds...three year olds......that's how they are. It's healthy for them to run around the house like little, playfull lunatics. Hell, I'm 43 and I still do it..:D:D


Talking to them with a reasonable, respectable, calmness, and a subtle firmness in attempts to teach them what is acceptable; goes a lot further than any screaming or spanking. I have found that if you respect them and don't talk down to them (don't condescend), they respond very well and learn a lot.

But all in all, they are kids. They are going to get whacky and kooky.

Don't make everything a big, dramatic fight or issue. Pick your battles.......pick only the most important/serious/or potentially dangerous of issues to be dramatic.

angelica

soulsinging wrote:

well that's what i said from the beginning. kids are not mini-adults and should not be treated as such. that does not, however, mean that we should never discpline them. they do need to learn appropriate ways of behavior with a gentle, but firm, hand.

I'm all for holding them 100% accountable for their actions, in a gentle but firm method.

I stopped hitting my kids years back. Since I stopped giving myself the easy way out, I learned many skills that work. I don't let anything slide. I also do not shame my kids. I call out their errors and we talk about them and how to do better next time. My son is a teenager, and he comes to me and admits mistakes all the time, looking for help with problem solving. He doesn't have to hide from me, or sweep things under the rug because our home environment is a safe one where my son can feel safe being himself. He can accept his strengths AND his weaknesses and look for solutions rather than denying problems out of fear. I am happy that I've taught him by my thoughts, words and deeds towards him that he is 100% worthy of acceptance and of having his boundaries respected.

angelica

NMyTree wrote:

Bravo!

They are two year olds...three year olds......that's how they are. It's healthy for them to run around the house like little, playfull lunatics. ...


Talking to them with a reasonable, respectable, calmness, and a subtle firmness in attempts to teach them what is acceptable; goes a lot further than any screaming or spanking. I have found that if you respect them and don't talk down to them (don't condescend), they respond very well and learn a lot.

But all in all, they are kids. They are going to get whacky and kooky.

Don't make everything a big, dramatic fight or issue. Pick your battles.......pick only the most important/serious/or potentially dangerous of issues to be dramatic.

I agree with everything you say here. I'm 'only' 42, and I've still got a majorly playful lunatic streak in me! The condescension thing is big. By doing that I'm-above-you-and-supposedly-infallible thing, we set up some biggg ramifications to come back at us at some point or another.

surferdude

angelica wrote:

What is your definition of abuse? To me if you hit me, you are abusing me. It doesn't make much sense to me to amend that idea to a lower standard for our children, of all people--to actually give them a lesser standard than we expect for ourselves, especially given their defenseless, dependent nature. We are their advocates, and I take that role very seriously. I don't see crossing the signals of love/abuse as a good practise, and I feel we see the fallout of doing so widely, all around us in each day.

Much of what we do as parents would be completely out of line if done to another adult. Would you send your partner to the time-out chair? Do you not let your partner have a cookie before dinner? Do you send your partner to bed early as a punishment? Do you treat people this way at work?

Let's face it, kids are not miniature adults. They have neither the adult emotions nor reasoning skills. Every child is different in the way they learn.

While I don't agree with spanking I'm not going to take it away as a tool for parents to use in raising their children. Governments have no place in the family unless abuse is going on.

angelica

surferdude wrote:

Much of what we do as parents would be completely out of line if done to another adult. Would you send your partner to the time-out chair? Do you not let your partner have a cookie before dinner? Do you send your partner to bed early as a punishment? Do you treat people this way at work?

Let's face it, kids are not miniature adults. They have neither the adult emotions nor reasoning skills. Every child is different in the way they learn.

While I don't agree with spanking I'm not going to take it away as a tool for parents to use in raising their children. Governments have no place in the family unless abuse is going on.

I'm personally staying out of the whole government thing. And besides that, I also respect people's choices. I accept and seek to understand and support people where they are at any stage in their lives, whether it includes spanking or not.

Our kids come and rest within our evolutionary path throughout their childhood. When I learned to go past my own prior control issues, I let go of the idea that my kids were mine to do with as I please.

As the wise Kahlil Gibran said: "Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love but not your thoughts.
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams."

Rushlimbo

surferdude wrote:

Governments have no place in the family unless abuse is going on.

So you are saying the government should stay out of our lives -- including issues such as gay marriage and abortion? That is totally unlike you. Why the sudden change of heart?

Uncle Leo

NMyTree wrote:

Bravo!

They are two year olds...three year olds......that's how they are. It's healthy for them to run around the house like little, playfull lunatics. Hell, I'm 43 and I still do it..:D:D

You know better. Perhaps YOU should be spanked.

thankyougrandma

Rushlimbo wrote:

So you are saying the government should stay out of our lives -- including issues such as gay marriage and abortion? That is totally unlike you. Why the sudden change of heart?

gay marriages and abortion are not criminalized. It's legal (at least here) and it is up to each individuals to choose...

baraka

angelica wrote:

As the wise Kahlil Gibran said: "Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love but not your thoughts.
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams."

This has always been one of my favs, Angelica!

surferdude

Rushlimbo wrote:

So you are saying the government should stay out of our lives -- including issues such as gay marriage and abortion? That is totally unlike you. Why the sudden change of heart?

You must have me confused with someone else. My only stance on gay marriage has been that the government should get out of the marriage game all together. My only stance on abortion is that I'm not for it but am okay with the government allowing it.

chopitdown

NMyTree wrote:

Bravo!

I have routinely and repeatidly argued with my sons' mom on this point.

They are two year olds...three year olds......that's how they are. It's healthy for them to run around the house like little, playfull lunatics. Hell, I'm 43 and I still do it..:D:D

But all in all, they are kids. They are going to get whacky and kooky.

Don't make everything a big, dramatic fight or issue. Pick your battles.......pick only the most important/serious/or potentially dangerous of issues to be dramatic.

I don't think anyone is advocating spanking for kids being kids (running around being loud); however, if they are being disrespectful, or doing things in blatant contradiction to what the parent says I think that is when spanking should become an option.

NMyTree

surferdude wrote:

Much of what we do as parents would be completely out of line if done to another adult. Would you send your partner to the time-out chair? Do you not let your partner have a cookie before dinner? Do you send your partner to bed early as a punishment? Do you treat people this way at work?

Let's face it, kids are not miniature adults. They have neither the adult emotions nor reasoning skills. Every child is different in the way they learn.

While I don't agree with spanking I'm not going to take it away as a tool for parents to use in raising their children. Governments have no place in the family unless abuse is going on.

Of course they're not adults. and of course I don't treat them like adults.

But I can certainly treat them with respect. I also descipline, teach and communicate with them....every day.

Communication, teaching, explaining things to them and respect are in my opinion- the most important elements; along with love, affection, positive affirmation and setting a positive and responsible example as a parent.

No one is perfect, certainly not I. But I sure work hard to achieve all of the above elements.

NMyTree

Uncle Leo wrote:

You know better. Perhaps YOU should be spanked.

Perhaps......Perhaps:D

soulsinging

angelica wrote:

I'm all for holding them 100% accountable for their actions, in a gentle but firm method.

I stopped hitting my kids years back. Since I stopped giving myself the easy way out, I learned many skills that work. I don't let anything slide. I also do not shame my kids. I call out their errors and we talk about them and how to do better next time. My son is a teenager, and he comes to me and admits mistakes all the time, looking for help with problem solving. He doesn't have to hide from me, or sweep things under the rug because our home environment is a safe one where my son can feel safe being himself. He can accept his strengths AND his weaknesses and look for solutions rather than denying problems out of fear. I am happy that I've taught him by my thoughts, words and deeds towards him that he is 100% worthy of acceptance and of having his boundaries respected.

spanking a teenager is a ridiculous idea. im only talking about young kids who are too young to have a reasoned conversation with. as someone else pointed out, ANY punishment you use on a kid would be ridiculous when applied to adults. nor am i advocating creating an environemnt of fear where children are scared to speak to their parents. you continually twist my stance into one where im talking about ruling with a violently iron fist. im not. you're talking about degrading abuse. im talking about gentle, but firm, discipline. ive enver had any problem approacing my parents for advice or counsel, despite the fact that they "hit" me when i was young.

angelica

soulsinging wrote:

spanking a teenager is a ridiculous idea. im only talking about young kids who are too young to have a reasoned conversation with. as someone else pointed out, ANY punishment you use on a kid would be ridiculous when applied to adults. nor am i advocating creating an environemnt of fear where children are scared to speak to their parents. you continually twist my stance into one where im talking about ruling with a violently iron fist. im not. you're talking about degrading abuse. im talking about gentle, but firm, discipline. ive enver had any problem approacing my parents for advice or counsel, despite the fact that they "hit" me when i was young.

I continually twist your stance? In my words you quoted, I was speaking my own opinion, not talking about yours in any way. In my first sentence, I completely agreed with you.

My point about teenagers is that I stopped spanking my son when he was about 6 or so. At that point his sister was going through huge teenager problems including constant running away and numerous psychiatric hospitalisations so I began changing my ways very, very quickly. I knew I could change things before my son was a teenager. I learned to problem solve with my son. I no longer treated him like someone who was bad enough he deserved to be hit. I was there to help him develop insights about his mistakes. Therefore he knew he would benefit and could work through his problems and errors with me. My son doesn't even skip classes without talking to me. He'll approach me with his reasoning for why he doesn't want to go to school in the morning, or if he wants to come home early to work on something at home, etc. I'll run through the ideal situations and point out the flaws in his reasoning. And when he's heard me out, I let him make his own choice, because I know it's significant that he comes to me first on something like that when most kids would not. It's an awesome opportunity for me as a parent to go through the real consequences and help him see the pros cons, for when he will be making 100% his own choices.

I believe when you hit your kids, you set up a dynamic where they want to hide things from you, because by such a strong hitting message, you tell them they have been very bad, somehow. Sure you can stop hitting them at twelve. Will the past hits and shame go away? Will the trust you've violated for years miraculously rebuild itself? Can you suddenly start telling them they are of value and no one ever has a right to lay a hand on them?

soulsinging

angelica wrote:

I believe when you hit your kids, you set up a dynamic where they want to hide things from you, because by such a strong hitting message, you tell them they have been very bad, somehow. Sure you can stop hitting them at twelve. Will the past hits and shame go away? Will the trust you've violated for years miraculously rebuild itself? Can you suddenly start telling them they are of value and no one ever has a right to lay a hand on them?

this is what im talking about. you assume all hitting is frequent and occurs until 12 and leads to heavy shame. im talking about only in rare situations (like hippiemom's example of kid running into street or touching burner), never when angry, and never after about schooling age.

angelica

soulsinging wrote:

this is what im talking about. you assume all hitting is frequent and occurs until 12 and leads to heavy shame. im talking about only in rare situations (like hippiemom's example of kid running into street or touching burner), never when angry, and never after about schooling age.

I'm certainly take advantage of my ability to speak my opinion, if that's what you mean. I see that when people give themselves permission to hit, they hit. I believe hitting kids sends a message that is dangerous to their humanity. When they remove that option, and look for non-invasive techniques they do that as well. I believe that if I excuse hitting my children, then I am somehow making them "bad", rather than dealing with the issue in a reasonable manner. And I believe shame and imbalanced power dynamics are completely entwined with that.