I think the problem comes in when people think since a two year old, for example, acts like a two year old, that they must be changed/stopped/controlled. And we just miss the point. In our own ignorance, we miss that it's normal and healthy for them to act like two year olds when that is in fact what they are. Therefore the more education, understanding and awareness we have, the more optimally OUR parenting issues will be managed--ie: with responsible effective parenting.
well that's what i said from the beginning. kids are not mini-adults and should not be treated as such. that does not, however, mean that we should never discpline them. they do need to learn appropriate ways of behavior with a gentle, but firm, hand.
And therein lies the problem with our government trying run our lives. The bullshit law has nothing to do with protecting children.
I see that problem, too. The law is almost like a warning to those truly abusive parents. To hold caution on the abuses of their children; more hidden.
Exactly, i'd say that in most case it's mostly a reaction that a parents will (in mose case) regret, but it's not criminal at all. Spanking your kids every day of the week become a criminal act though...
I think the problem comes in when people think since a two year old, for example, acts like a two year old, that they must be changed/stopped/controlled. And we just miss the point. In our own ignorance, we miss that it's normal and healthy for them to act like two year olds when that is in fact what they are.
Bravo!
I have routinely and repeatidly argued with my sons' mom on this point.
They are two year olds...three year olds......that's how they are. It's healthy for them to run around the house like little, playfull lunatics. Hell, I'm 43 and I still do it..:D:D
Talking to them with a reasonable, respectable, calmness, and a subtle firmness in attempts to teach them what is acceptable; goes a lot further than any screaming or spanking. I have found that if you respect them and don't talk down to them (don't condescend), they respond very well and learn a lot.
But all in all, they are kids. They are going to get whacky and kooky.
Don't make everything a big, dramatic fight or issue. Pick your battles.......pick only the most important/serious/or potentially dangerous of issues to be dramatic.
well that's what i said from the beginning. kids are not mini-adults and should not be treated as such. that does not, however, mean that we should never discpline them. they do need to learn appropriate ways of behavior with a gentle, but firm, hand.
I'm all for holding them 100% accountable for their actions, in a gentle but firm method.
I stopped hitting my kids years back. Since I stopped giving myself the easy way out, I learned many skills that work. I don't let anything slide. I also do not shame my kids. I call out their errors and we talk about them and how to do better next time. My son is a teenager, and he comes to me and admits mistakes all the time, looking for help with problem solving. He doesn't have to hide from me, or sweep things under the rug because our home environment is a safe one where my son can feel safe being himself. He can accept his strengths AND his weaknesses and look for solutions rather than denying problems out of fear. I am happy that I've taught him by my thoughts, words and deeds towards him that he is 100% worthy of acceptance and of having his boundaries respected.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
They are two year olds...three year olds......that's how they are. It's healthy for them to run around the house like little, playfull lunatics. ...
Talking to them with a reasonable, respectable, calmness, and a subtle firmness in attempts to teach them what is acceptable; goes a lot further than any screaming or spanking. I have found that if you respect them and don't talk down to them (don't condescend), they respond very well and learn a lot.
But all in all, they are kids. They are going to get whacky and kooky.
Don't make everything a big, dramatic fight or issue. Pick your battles.......pick only the most important/serious/or potentially dangerous of issues to be dramatic.
I agree with everything you say here. I'm 'only' 42, and I've still got a majorly playful lunatic streak in me! The condescension thing is big. By doing that I'm-above-you-and-supposedly-infallible thing, we set up some biggg ramifications to come back at us at some point or another.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
What is your definition of abuse? To me if you hit me, you are abusing me. It doesn't make much sense to me to amend that idea to a lower standard for our children, of all people--to actually give them a lesser standard than we expect for ourselves, especially given their defenseless, dependent nature. We are their advocates, and I take that role very seriously. I don't see crossing the signals of love/abuse as a good practise, and I feel we see the fallout of doing so widely, all around us in each day.
Much of what we do as parents would be completely out of line if done to another adult. Would you send your partner to the time-out chair? Do you not let your partner have a cookie before dinner? Do you send your partner to bed early as a punishment? Do you treat people this way at work?
Let's face it, kids are not miniature adults. They have neither the adult emotions nor reasoning skills. Every child is different in the way they learn.
While I don't agree with spanking I'm not going to take it away as a tool for parents to use in raising their children. Governments have no place in the family unless abuse is going on.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
Much of what we do as parents would be completely out of line if done to another adult. Would you send your partner to the time-out chair? Do you not let your partner have a cookie before dinner? Do you send your partner to bed early as a punishment? Do you treat people this way at work?
Let's face it, kids are not miniature adults. They have neither the adult emotions nor reasoning skills. Every child is different in the way they learn.
While I don't agree with spanking I'm not going to take it away as a tool for parents to use in raising their children. Governments have no place in the family unless abuse is going on.
I'm personally staying out of the whole government thing. And besides that, I also respect people's choices. I accept and seek to understand and support people where they are at any stage in their lives, whether it includes spanking or not.
Our kids come and rest within our evolutionary path throughout their childhood. When I learned to go past my own prior control issues, I let go of the idea that my kids were mine to do with as I please.
As the wise Kahlil Gibran said: "Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love but not your thoughts.
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams."
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Governments have no place in the family unless abuse is going on.
So you are saying the government should stay out of our lives -- including issues such as gay marriage and abortion? That is totally unlike you. Why the sudden change of heart?
War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength
They are two year olds...three year olds......that's how they are. It's healthy for them to run around the house like little, playfull lunatics. Hell, I'm 43 and I still do it..:D:D
You know better. Perhaps YOU should be spanked.
I cannot come up with a new sig till I get this egg off my face.
So you are saying the government should stay out of our lives -- including issues such as gay marriage and abortion? That is totally unlike you. Why the sudden change of heart?
gay marriages and abortion are not criminalized. It's legal (at least here) and it is up to each individuals to choose...
"L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
As the wise Kahlil Gibran said: "Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love but not your thoughts.
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams."
This has always been one of my favs, Angelica!
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
So you are saying the government should stay out of our lives -- including issues such as gay marriage and abortion? That is totally unlike you. Why the sudden change of heart?
You must have me confused with someone else. My only stance on gay marriage has been that the government should get out of the marriage game all together. My only stance on abortion is that I'm not for it but am okay with the government allowing it.
“One good thing about music,
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
I have routinely and repeatidly argued with my sons' mom on this point.
They are two year olds...three year olds......that's how they are. It's healthy for them to run around the house like little, playfull lunatics. Hell, I'm 43 and I still do it..:D:D
But all in all, they are kids. They are going to get whacky and kooky.
Don't make everything a big, dramatic fight or issue. Pick your battles.......pick only the most important/serious/or potentially dangerous of issues to be dramatic.
I don't think anyone is advocating spanking for kids being kids (running around being loud); however, if they are being disrespectful, or doing things in blatant contradiction to what the parent says I think that is when spanking should become an option.
make sure the fortune that you seek...is the fortune that you need
Much of what we do as parents would be completely out of line if done to another adult. Would you send your partner to the time-out chair? Do you not let your partner have a cookie before dinner? Do you send your partner to bed early as a punishment? Do you treat people this way at work?
Let's face it, kids are not miniature adults. They have neither the adult emotions nor reasoning skills. Every child is different in the way they learn.
While I don't agree with spanking I'm not going to take it away as a tool for parents to use in raising their children. Governments have no place in the family unless abuse is going on.
Of course they're not adults. and of course I don't treat them like adults.
But I can certainly treat them with respect. I also descipline, teach and communicate with them....every day.
Communication, teaching, explaining things to them and respect are in my opinion- the most important elements; along with love, affection, positive affirmation and setting a positive and responsible example as a parent.
No one is perfect, certainly not I. But I sure work hard to achieve all of the above elements.
I'm all for holding them 100% accountable for their actions, in a gentle but firm method.
I stopped hitting my kids years back. Since I stopped giving myself the easy way out, I learned many skills that work. I don't let anything slide. I also do not shame my kids. I call out their errors and we talk about them and how to do better next time. My son is a teenager, and he comes to me and admits mistakes all the time, looking for help with problem solving. He doesn't have to hide from me, or sweep things under the rug because our home environment is a safe one where my son can feel safe being himself. He can accept his strengths AND his weaknesses and look for solutions rather than denying problems out of fear. I am happy that I've taught him by my thoughts, words and deeds towards him that he is 100% worthy of acceptance and of having his boundaries respected.
spanking a teenager is a ridiculous idea. im only talking about young kids who are too young to have a reasoned conversation with. as someone else pointed out, ANY punishment you use on a kid would be ridiculous when applied to adults. nor am i advocating creating an environemnt of fear where children are scared to speak to their parents. you continually twist my stance into one where im talking about ruling with a violently iron fist. im not. you're talking about degrading abuse. im talking about gentle, but firm, discipline. ive enver had any problem approacing my parents for advice or counsel, despite the fact that they "hit" me when i was young.
spanking a teenager is a ridiculous idea. im only talking about young kids who are too young to have a reasoned conversation with. as someone else pointed out, ANY punishment you use on a kid would be ridiculous when applied to adults. nor am i advocating creating an environemnt of fear where children are scared to speak to their parents. you continually twist my stance into one where im talking about ruling with a violently iron fist. im not. you're talking about degrading abuse. im talking about gentle, but firm, discipline. ive enver had any problem approacing my parents for advice or counsel, despite the fact that they "hit" me when i was young.
I continually twist your stance? In my words you quoted, I was speaking my own opinion, not talking about yours in any way. In my first sentence, I completely agreed with you.
My point about teenagers is that I stopped spanking my son when he was about 6 or so. At that point his sister was going through huge teenager problems including constant running away and numerous psychiatric hospitalisations so I began changing my ways very, very quickly. I knew I could change things before my son was a teenager. I learned to problem solve with my son. I no longer treated him like someone who was bad enough he deserved to be hit. I was there to help him develop insights about his mistakes. Therefore he knew he would benefit and could work through his problems and errors with me. My son doesn't even skip classes without talking to me. He'll approach me with his reasoning for why he doesn't want to go to school in the morning, or if he wants to come home early to work on something at home, etc. I'll run through the ideal situations and point out the flaws in his reasoning. And when he's heard me out, I let him make his own choice, because I know it's significant that he comes to me first on something like that when most kids would not. It's an awesome opportunity for me as a parent to go through the real consequences and help him see the pros cons, for when he will be making 100% his own choices.
I believe when you hit your kids, you set up a dynamic where they want to hide things from you, because by such a strong hitting message, you tell them they have been very bad, somehow. Sure you can stop hitting them at twelve. Will the past hits and shame go away? Will the trust you've violated for years miraculously rebuild itself? Can you suddenly start telling them they are of value and no one ever has a right to lay a hand on them?
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I believe when you hit your kids, you set up a dynamic where they want to hide things from you, because by such a strong hitting message, you tell them they have been very bad, somehow. Sure you can stop hitting them at twelve. Will the past hits and shame go away? Will the trust you've violated for years miraculously rebuild itself? Can you suddenly start telling them they are of value and no one ever has a right to lay a hand on them?
this is what im talking about. you assume all hitting is frequent and occurs until 12 and leads to heavy shame. im talking about only in rare situations (like hippiemom's example of kid running into street or touching burner), never when angry, and never after about schooling age.
this is what im talking about. you assume all hitting is frequent and occurs until 12 and leads to heavy shame. im talking about only in rare situations (like hippiemom's example of kid running into street or touching burner), never when angry, and never after about schooling age.
I'm certainly take advantage of my ability to speak my opinion, if that's what you mean. I see that when people give themselves permission to hit, they hit. I believe hitting kids sends a message that is dangerous to their humanity. When they remove that option, and look for non-invasive techniques they do that as well. I believe that if I excuse hitting my children, then I am somehow making them "bad", rather than dealing with the issue in a reasonable manner. And I believe shame and imbalanced power dynamics are completely entwined with that.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
typical liberal arrogance. if they wont play with me, ill declare myself victor. this is why you shoulda been spanked... maybe you'd realize you dont always get your way and people arent going to hold your hand and stroke your ego your entire life.
i was spanked. im hardly damaged by it. actually, i was hit with a belt. im still here. im not in therapy. i dont weep abotu it or think my parents dont love me. i just learned that if you break the rules, there are consequences.
I guess spanking influenced your mindset as well. You obviously think calling the other person an idiot is a viable means of communication.
Those spankings, while seemingly harmless to you, stunted your ability to see things on an eye-to-eye level. This is why you think indulging someone in conversation equates to "holding someone's hand".
The reason why you wanted your parents to hold your hand was because you were a child. But because this state of mind was beaten instead of rationalized out of you, you go around subconsciously thinking everyone else must want the same thing.
My advice is to dig deep inside yourself and hold your own hand for awhile. Then you might realize that some people prefer to exchange points of view instead of slinging insults because they have the ability to see each other as equals, not because they need their childishness beaten out of them like your parents did to you.
this is why you're an idiot...people are different. i don't see you as an equal because i don't feel you are on the same level as i am. it has nothing to do with me being spanked. it has to do with your lack of ability to see the world through objective, logical eyes.
I guess spanking influenced your mindset as well. You obviously think calling the other person an idiot is a viable means of communication.
Those spankings, while seemingly harmless to you, stunted your ability to see things on an eye-to-eye level. This is why you think indulging someone in conversation equates to "holding someone's hand".
The reason why you wanted your parents to hold your hand was because you were a child. But because this state of mind was beaten instead of rationalized out of you, you go around subconsciously thinking everyone else must want the same thing.
My advice is to dig deep inside yourself and hand your own hand for awhile. Then you might realize that some people would rather exchange points of view instead of slinging insults because they have the ability to see each other as equals, not because they need their childishness beaten out of them like your parents did to you.
this is why you're an idiot...people are different. i don't see you as an equal because i don't feel you are on the same level as i am. it has nothing to do with me being spanked. it has to do with your lack of ability to see the world through objective, logical eyes.
All you're really saying right there is that because I don't see things your way, I lack objectivity and logic. And, oh yeah, you're calling me an idiot.
But, you haven't substantiated any of that with any supporting ideas. So, it's all just blowing smoke on your part.
When you want to talk about why you think the way you do by actually breaking it down into a series of related ideas organized into a logical pattern, then I'm all ears.
But, you haven't even been able to come close to that. You instead close your ears and call the other person an idiot. This is the childish cry baby side of you that was never properly dealt with as a result of it being beaten out of you. You have some growing up to do. This is because you were expected to grow up the wrong way. Emotional maturity is not a matter of "forcing" out what your parents told you was childish. It's a matter of thinking your feeilngs and thoughts through until you understand where they originated from and what purpose they've served until that point.
But the 12 y/o who says "I hate you" because he doesn't get his way still lingers about inside yourself without your knowledge and makes himself known by acting the way that you're acting right now.
no, i told you why i disagree with you, and i told you why it is useless to talk about it...becuase you don't understand. if you did understand, you wouldn't have to ask the question. i don't waste my time with people like you.
All you're really saying right there is that because I don't see things your way, I lack objectivity and logic. And, oh yeah, you're calling me an idiot.
But, you haven't substantiated any of that with any supporting ideas. So, it's all just blowing smoke on your part.
When you want to talk about why you think the way you do by actually breaking it down into a series of related ideas organized into a logical pattern, then I'm all ears.
But, you haven't even been able to come close to that. You instead close your ears and call the other person an idiot. This is the childish cry baby side of you that was never properly dealt with as a result of it being beaten out of you. You have some growing up to do. This is because you were expected to grow up the wrong way. Emotional maturity is not a matter of "forcing" out what your parents told you was childish. It's a matter of thinking your feeilngs and thoughts through until you understand where they originated from and what purpose they've served until that point.
But the 12 y/o who says "I hate you" because he doesn't get his way still lingers about inside yourself without your knowledge and makes himself known by acting the way that you're acting right now.
no, i told you why i disagree with you, and i told you why it is useless to talk about it...becuase you don't understand. if you did understand, you wouldn't have to ask the question. i don't waste my time with people like you.
"Because you don't understand" is not a reason, and that's the only reason you've been able to put forth. The fact that I have to explain this to you more than once is somewhat baffling. Do you need special helpings of common sense? I'm here all night. I guess I should keep in mind that you're probably used to be spanked before changing your views. While I cannot accommodate that particular need of yours, I will try to do the linguistic equivalent if that be to your liking.
I guess spanking influenced your mindset as well. You obviously think calling the other person an idiot is a viable means of communication.
Those spankings, while seemingly harmless to you, stunted your ability to see things on an eye-to-eye level. This is why you think indulging someone in conversation equates to "holding someone's hand".
The reason why you wanted your parents to hold your hand was because you were a child. But because this state of mind was beaten instead of rationalized out of you, you go around subconsciously thinking everyone else must want the same thing.
My advice is to dig deep inside yourself and hold your own hand for awhile. Then you might realize that some people prefer to exchange points of view instead of slinging insults because they have the ability to see each other as equals, not because they need their childishness beaten out of them like your parents did to you.
I agree with your basic concepts here:
1: When someone calls another person an idiot, or implies it, it is an indicator they are not able to have a balanced, rational exchange. Rather, it indicates their thoughts are being distorted by emotions beneath the surface.
2: You hit the nail on the head with this: reasonably and fairly exchanging points of view is not hand-holding. As a matter of fact, the way to have a logical, healthy, balanced adult conversation is by being reasonable, which is the opposite of slinging or implying insults. The way one avoids corrupting their logic with unacknowledged emotion IS to get in touch wtih that emotion through healthy channels so it doesn't slip out in all kinds of "you're an idiot" implications. When one is about jumping on another for their view, one is indicating they do not know how to hold their own emotional hand.
3: Using the "you're an idiot" stance, whether directly or by implication indicates we are not operating in a balanced manner. It has nothing to do with the person we think is an idiot, but rather with our own perception.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Comments
well that's what i said from the beginning. kids are not mini-adults and should not be treated as such. that does not, however, mean that we should never discpline them. they do need to learn appropriate ways of behavior with a gentle, but firm, hand.
I see that problem, too. The law is almost like a warning to those truly abusive parents. To hold caution on the abuses of their children; more hidden.
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except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
Bravo!
I have routinely and repeatidly argued with my sons' mom on this point.
They are two year olds...three year olds......that's how they are. It's healthy for them to run around the house like little, playfull lunatics. Hell, I'm 43 and I still do it..:D:D
Talking to them with a reasonable, respectable, calmness, and a subtle firmness in attempts to teach them what is acceptable; goes a lot further than any screaming or spanking. I have found that if you respect them and don't talk down to them (don't condescend), they respond very well and learn a lot.
But all in all, they are kids. They are going to get whacky and kooky.
Don't make everything a big, dramatic fight or issue. Pick your battles.......pick only the most important/serious/or potentially dangerous of issues to be dramatic.
I stopped hitting my kids years back. Since I stopped giving myself the easy way out, I learned many skills that work. I don't let anything slide. I also do not shame my kids. I call out their errors and we talk about them and how to do better next time. My son is a teenager, and he comes to me and admits mistakes all the time, looking for help with problem solving. He doesn't have to hide from me, or sweep things under the rug because our home environment is a safe one where my son can feel safe being himself. He can accept his strengths AND his weaknesses and look for solutions rather than denying problems out of fear. I am happy that I've taught him by my thoughts, words and deeds towards him that he is 100% worthy of acceptance and of having his boundaries respected.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Let's face it, kids are not miniature adults. They have neither the adult emotions nor reasoning skills. Every child is different in the way they learn.
While I don't agree with spanking I'm not going to take it away as a tool for parents to use in raising their children. Governments have no place in the family unless abuse is going on.
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
Our kids come and rest within our evolutionary path throughout their childhood. When I learned to go past my own prior control issues, I let go of the idea that my kids were mine to do with as I please.
As the wise Kahlil Gibran said: "Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love but not your thoughts.
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams."
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
So you are saying the government should stay out of our lives -- including issues such as gay marriage and abortion? That is totally unlike you. Why the sudden change of heart?
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength
You know better. Perhaps YOU should be spanked.
gay marriages and abortion are not criminalized. It's legal (at least here) and it is up to each individuals to choose...
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
This has always been one of my favs, Angelica!
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
when it hits you, you feel to pain.
So brutalize me with music.”
~ Bob Marley
I don't think anyone is advocating spanking for kids being kids (running around being loud); however, if they are being disrespectful, or doing things in blatant contradiction to what the parent says I think that is when spanking should become an option.
Of course they're not adults. and of course I don't treat them like adults.
But I can certainly treat them with respect. I also descipline, teach and communicate with them....every day.
Communication, teaching, explaining things to them and respect are in my opinion- the most important elements; along with love, affection, positive affirmation and setting a positive and responsible example as a parent.
No one is perfect, certainly not I. But I sure work hard to achieve all of the above elements.
Perhaps......Perhaps:D
spanking a teenager is a ridiculous idea. im only talking about young kids who are too young to have a reasoned conversation with. as someone else pointed out, ANY punishment you use on a kid would be ridiculous when applied to adults. nor am i advocating creating an environemnt of fear where children are scared to speak to their parents. you continually twist my stance into one where im talking about ruling with a violently iron fist. im not. you're talking about degrading abuse. im talking about gentle, but firm, discipline. ive enver had any problem approacing my parents for advice or counsel, despite the fact that they "hit" me when i was young.
My point about teenagers is that I stopped spanking my son when he was about 6 or so. At that point his sister was going through huge teenager problems including constant running away and numerous psychiatric hospitalisations so I began changing my ways very, very quickly. I knew I could change things before my son was a teenager. I learned to problem solve with my son. I no longer treated him like someone who was bad enough he deserved to be hit. I was there to help him develop insights about his mistakes. Therefore he knew he would benefit and could work through his problems and errors with me. My son doesn't even skip classes without talking to me. He'll approach me with his reasoning for why he doesn't want to go to school in the morning, or if he wants to come home early to work on something at home, etc. I'll run through the ideal situations and point out the flaws in his reasoning. And when he's heard me out, I let him make his own choice, because I know it's significant that he comes to me first on something like that when most kids would not. It's an awesome opportunity for me as a parent to go through the real consequences and help him see the pros cons, for when he will be making 100% his own choices.
I believe when you hit your kids, you set up a dynamic where they want to hide things from you, because by such a strong hitting message, you tell them they have been very bad, somehow. Sure you can stop hitting them at twelve. Will the past hits and shame go away? Will the trust you've violated for years miraculously rebuild itself? Can you suddenly start telling them they are of value and no one ever has a right to lay a hand on them?
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
this is what im talking about. you assume all hitting is frequent and occurs until 12 and leads to heavy shame. im talking about only in rare situations (like hippiemom's example of kid running into street or touching burner), never when angry, and never after about schooling age.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I guess spanking influenced your mindset as well. You obviously think calling the other person an idiot is a viable means of communication.
Those spankings, while seemingly harmless to you, stunted your ability to see things on an eye-to-eye level. This is why you think indulging someone in conversation equates to "holding someone's hand".
The reason why you wanted your parents to hold your hand was because you were a child. But because this state of mind was beaten instead of rationalized out of you, you go around subconsciously thinking everyone else must want the same thing.
My advice is to dig deep inside yourself and hold your own hand for awhile. Then you might realize that some people prefer to exchange points of view instead of slinging insults because they have the ability to see each other as equals, not because they need their childishness beaten out of them like your parents did to you.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
from my window to yours
All you're really saying right there is that because I don't see things your way, I lack objectivity and logic. And, oh yeah, you're calling me an idiot.
But, you haven't substantiated any of that with any supporting ideas. So, it's all just blowing smoke on your part.
When you want to talk about why you think the way you do by actually breaking it down into a series of related ideas organized into a logical pattern, then I'm all ears.
But, you haven't even been able to come close to that. You instead close your ears and call the other person an idiot. This is the childish cry baby side of you that was never properly dealt with as a result of it being beaten out of you. You have some growing up to do. This is because you were expected to grow up the wrong way. Emotional maturity is not a matter of "forcing" out what your parents told you was childish. It's a matter of thinking your feeilngs and thoughts through until you understand where they originated from and what purpose they've served until that point.
But the 12 y/o who says "I hate you" because he doesn't get his way still lingers about inside yourself without your knowledge and makes himself known by acting the way that you're acting right now.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
from my window to yours
"Because you don't understand" is not a reason, and that's the only reason you've been able to put forth. The fact that I have to explain this to you more than once is somewhat baffling. Do you need special helpings of common sense? I'm here all night. I guess I should keep in mind that you're probably used to be spanked before changing your views. While I cannot accommodate that particular need of yours, I will try to do the linguistic equivalent if that be to your liking.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
1: When someone calls another person an idiot, or implies it, it is an indicator they are not able to have a balanced, rational exchange. Rather, it indicates their thoughts are being distorted by emotions beneath the surface.
2: You hit the nail on the head with this: reasonably and fairly exchanging points of view is not hand-holding. As a matter of fact, the way to have a logical, healthy, balanced adult conversation is by being reasonable, which is the opposite of slinging or implying insults. The way one avoids corrupting their logic with unacknowledged emotion IS to get in touch wtih that emotion through healthy channels so it doesn't slip out in all kinds of "you're an idiot" implications. When one is about jumping on another for their view, one is indicating they do not know how to hold their own emotional hand.
3: Using the "you're an idiot" stance, whether directly or by implication indicates we are not operating in a balanced manner. It has nothing to do with the person we think is an idiot, but rather with our own perception.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!