crazy calif liberals won't let us beat our children

sponger

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070119/lf_afp/uspoliticschildren_070119202053

A California lawmaker says she has proposed a law that would make spanking a small child a crime to be punished by jail time or a fine.

CorporateWhore

There are already laws on the books regarding child abuse, right?

I'm opposed to corporal punishment mostly, though. Sometimes a kid needs a slap on the behind but it doesn't seem necessary most of the time.

trappedinmyradio

sponger wrote:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070119/lf_afp/uspoliticschildren_070119202053

california, slowly creating a generation of irresponsible, maladjusted individuals.

chopitdown

i can see this; I am a fan of corporal punishment (when used correctly...ie not abuse) but I'm glad that they are targeting this law at kids under 3 years of age b/c they aren't old enough to understand why spanking may be used. Although, there are times when, to stop a child quickly, it prob is approrpriate.

jeffbr

trappedinmyradio wrote:

california, slowly creating a generation of irresponsible, maladjusted individuals.

I think malajusted individuals have to resort to violence against children due to an inability to reason, be rational, or exercise self-control.

People hit kids to instill fear (inappropriately labeled as "respect"). It is possible to raise respectuful, polite, intelligent, successful kids without hitting them.

trappedinmyradio

jeffbr wrote:

I think malajusted individuals have to resort to violence against children due to an inability to reason, be rational, or exercise self-control.

People hit kids to instill fear (inappropriately labeled as "respect"). It is possible to raise respectuful, polite, intelligent, successful kids without hitting them.

hitting and spanking are two different things, completely...if you think that spanking is wrong then you're an idiot.

jeffbr

trappedinmyradio wrote:

hitting and spanking are two different things, completely...if you think that spanking is wrong then you're an idiot.

If you think spanking is necessary, it is only because you don't have the mental capacity to work through issues with your children. Of course hitting a child is wrong. At what point does a spank become a hit? Physical stricking to inflict pain sure sounds like hitting to me.

Why would you teach a child that the way to resolve conflict is to strike someone?

trappedinmyradio

jeffbr wrote:

If you think spanking is necessary, it is only because you don't have the mental capacity to work through issues with your children. Of course hitting a child is wrong. At what point does a spank become a hit? Physical stricking to inflict pain sure sounds like hitting to me.

Why would you teach a child that the way to resolve conflict is to strike someone?

yep, you're an idiot!

jeffbr

trappedinmyradio wrote:

yep, you're an idiot!

Thanks. I'm not really bothered by you calling me an idiot, since you seem to be in favor of hitting little kids who can't defend themselves. You had no answer to my questions, nor any rational response, so I can see why you'd need to hit someone to make your point.

Rushlimbo

I like being spanked when I'm being a bad boy.

trappedinmyradio

jeffbr wrote:

Thanks. I'm not really bothered by you calling me an idiot, since you seem to be in favor of hitting little kids who can't defend themselves. You had no answer to my questions, nor any rational response, so I can see why you'd need to hit someone to make your point.

i'm not going to waste my time explaining this to you because, as i have stated, you're an idiot without the logical ability to understand that which would be explained to you.

sponger

trappedinmyradio wrote:

i'm not going to waste my time explaining this to you because, as i have stated, you're an idiot without the logical ability to understand that which would be explained to you.

Obviously the spankings that your parents doled out to you robbed you of your ability to communicate. When they should have reasoned with you, they instead used a quicker and hassle-free approach.

And that's why you refuse to reason with jeffbr. You think he's incapable of receiving your message just as your parents believed the same about you.

A Surprise Left

I think spanking (as long as its done in a controlled fashion) is a good way to punish children, although it shouldn't be the only method of discipline used. I was spanked from time to time as a child, and I think I turned out alright.

redrock

A Surprise Left wrote:

I think spanking (as long as its done in a controlled fashion) is a good way to punish children

What is deemed 'controlled'? How hard do you spank before it's 'out of control'? Hitting is never a good way to punish... You remove a child from the 'situation', you explain to the child whatever he/she did is wrong (and why if they can understand), you give them time to cool off.

Abookamongstthemany

jeffbr wrote:

I think malajusted individuals have to resort to violence against children due to an inability to reason, be rational, or exercise self-control.

People hit kids to instill fear (inappropriately labeled as "respect"). It is possible to raise respectuful, polite, intelligent, successful kids without hitting them.

I agree. Children make mistakes just the same as adults do, that doesn't go away with age. Striking someone because of a mistake or misunderstanding is inapproriate. Some kids get a spanking for calling others idiots.

A Surprise Left

redrock wrote:

What is deemed 'controlled'? How hard do you spank before it's 'out of control'? Hitting is never a good way to punish... You remove a child from the 'situation', you explain to the child whatever he/she did is wrong (and why if they can understand), you give them time to cool off.

Well you would never hit a child whilst you you were angry or lost your temper, and you would clearly explain why they are being punished.

chopitdown

jeffbr wrote:

If you think spanking is necessary, it is only because you don't have the mental capacity to work through issues with your children. Of course hitting a child is wrong. At what point does a spank become a hit? Physical stricking to inflict pain sure sounds like hitting to me.

Why would you teach a child that the way to resolve conflict is to strike someone?

If you spank a kid in anger it is wrong. If the parent is not under control when they are spanking the child that is certainly not how a spanking should be administered. And also, it's not like you spank a child for every little thing they do wrong. If that's the only tool you have for discipline in your toolbox that says more about the parents than anything else.

Also, what if you have a child that doesn't respond to other punishments (i.e. discussion or thinking about what they did or timeout or taking their toys away)? Is spanking appropriate then or do you just let the child continue to be a jackass?

mammasan

I'm not going to tell other parents how to raise their kids, but for me personally I don't agree with spanking. There are other, more constructive, ways to discipline your children. My three boys are pretty well behaved, the little one can be a devil but he is only 2. I have never had a reason to spank them nor do I believe that there really is a reason to spank them. Other parents may disagree with me and that's fine. Parent's should decide the best manner in which to discipline their children and as long at that child is not being abused. It's really not the government's business or the neighbor's business how said discipline is carried out, again as long as the child is not being abused.

Uncle Leo

jeffbr wrote:

I think malajusted individuals have to resort to violence against children due to an inability to reason, be rational, or exercise self-control.

People hit kids to instill fear (inappropriately labeled as "respect"). It is possible to raise respectuful, polite, intelligent, successful kids without hitting them.

I don't necessarily think of spanking as "abuse." But I do think it sends the child a message of "I am the authority and I am going to punish you in this very simple way." Hopefully it is joined by dialogue and some acutal parenting.

But the reason I chose this post to quote is because I know some people (and as far as I can tell nobody here is doing this) that use "respect" as a key word in their firm belief that they are OK to go beyond spanking in violent punishment. It's rediculous.

Kids need to be respectful but fear of being smacked around does not really teach that.

gue_barium

I was shopping with my gf's 3-year old son some years ago and he knew that he wasn't to run ahead of me getting back to or from the car. Now, we got outside of the store after shopping, and instead of taking my hand like he was supposed to, he darts out into the parking lot without a thought in the world. I catch up to him fairly quick, put the groceries down, pick him up, and give him two fairly sharp spanks across the butt and explained to him the dangers of what he just did.

After that, he never did it again, and always took my hand.

Collin

gue_barium wrote:

I was shopping with my gf's 3-year old son some years ago and he knew that he wasn't to run ahead of me getting back to or from the car. Now, we got outside of the store after shopping, and instead of taking my hand like he was supposed to, he darts out into the parking lot without a thought in the world. I catch up to him fairly quick, put the groceries down, pick him up, and give him two fairly sharp spanks across the butt and explained to him the dangers of what he just did.

After that, he never did it again, and always took my hand.

Was it because you explained the dangers of what he did or was it because of the spanks?

gue_barium

Collin wrote:

Was it because you explained the dangers of what he did or was it because of the spanks?

It was the spanks. I had told him the dangers before. The spanking reinforced it, I think.

soulsinging

sponger wrote:

Obviously the spankings that your parents doled out to you robbed you of your ability to communicate. When they should have reasoned with you, they instead used a quicker and hassle-free approach.

And that's why you refuse to reason with jeffbr. You think he's incapable of receiving your message just as your parents believed the same about you.

typical liberal arrogance. if they wont play with me, ill declare myself victor. this is why you shoulda been spanked... maybe you'd realize you dont always get your way and people arent going to hold your hand and stroke your ego your entire life.

i was spanked. im hardly damaged by it. actually, i was hit with a belt. im still here. im not in therapy. i dont weep abotu it or think my parents dont love me. i just learned that if you break the rules, there are consequences.

soulsinging

redrock wrote:

What is deemed 'controlled'? How hard do you spank before it's 'out of control'? Hitting is never a good way to punish... You remove a child from the 'situation', you explain to the child whatever he/she did is wrong (and why if they can understand), you give them time to cool off.

yeah, cos kids will all understand that. dyou have kids? you can't reason with them. they're not miniature adults and oftentimes dont understand what they've done wrong. no amount of "cool off" time will make them little logic machines.

mammasan

soulsinging wrote:

yeah, cos kids will all understand that. dyou have kids? you can't reason with them. they're not miniature adults and oftentimes dont understand what they've done wrong. no amount of "cool off" time will make them little logic machines.

I agree that kids are not little adults and don't have the ability, yet, to reason with. Yet I don't think spanking is the way. I was spanked as a kid, my mother was lethal with her shoes. Her aim was uncanny. Like you I have no residual trauma from this. Personally though I don't find spanking to be an effective form of discipline. I feel that the child will refrain from doing what he/she did to receive the spanking because of fear of getting hit again, not because they learned to distinguish the difference between right and wrong. Again this is just my opinion and as I stated before that only parent's know what is best for their children and as long as the child is not being abused it is no one's business how they discipline that child.

soulsinging

mammasan wrote:

I agree that kids are not little adults and don't have the ability, yet, to reason with. Yet I don't think spanking is the way. I was spanked as a kid, my mother was lethal with her shoes. Her aim was uncanny. Like you I have no residual trauma from this. Personally though I don't find spanking to be an effective form of discipline. I feel that the child will refrain from doing what he/she did to receive the spanking because of fear of getting hit again, not because they learned to distinguish the difference between right and wrong. Again this is just my opinion and as I stated before that only parent's know what is best for their children and as long as the child is not being abused it is no one's business how they discipline that child.

well, spanking needs to be accompanied by some sort of explanation or communication to be effective. just a spanking doesn't really do any good.

mammasan

soulsinging wrote:

well, spanking needs to be accompanied by some sort of explanation or communication to be effective. just a spanking doesn't really do any good.

I understand that but how much can a 2 or 3 year old understand especially after just being stung in the hind quarters. Again just my personaly opinion.

angelica

soulsinging wrote:

typical liberal arrogance. if they wont play with me, ill declare myself victor. this is why you shoulda been spanked... maybe you'd realize you dont always get your way and people arent going to hold your hand and stroke your ego your entire life.

i was spanked. im hardly damaged by it. actually, i was hit with a belt. im still here. im not in therapy. i dont weep abotu it or think my parents dont love me. i just learned that if you break the rules, there are consequences.

I find it interesting that you don't seem to see a connection between being hit as a child with some of some of the personal issues you've publicly shared on this board. Do you feel certain that being hit by your caregivers as a defenseless child does not contribute to substance abuse issues?

Also, mammasan has shared of his own personal issues publicly on the board, and does not feel that being hit has left residual trauma.

I find this to be interesting if not entirely surprising. We internalise what we are taught is normal, and it's entirely "rational" that we then ACT it out unconsciously--without awareness of it--such as with addictions and disorders that seem to "control" us. Such is the nature of unresolved unconscious contents. We can become conscious of such connections and take back conscious control.

angelica

mammasan wrote:

I understand that but how much can a 2 or 3 year old understand especially after just being stung in the hind quarters. Again just my personaly opinion.

I'm with you on this.

Also, Dr. Phil says that when we hit, our kids feel that the score has been evened by the spanking or other physical discipline. Therefore they miss the learning message.

gue_barium

angelica wrote:

I find it interesting that you don't seem to see a connection between being hit as a child with some of some of the personal issues you've publicly shared on this board. Do you feel certain that being hit by your caregivers as a defenseless child does not contribute to substance abuse issues?

Also, mammasan has shared of his own personal issues publicly on the board, and does not feel that being hit has left residual trauma.

I find this to be interesting if not entirely surprising. We internalise what we are taught is normal, and it's entirely "rational" that we then ACT it out unconsciously--without awareness of it--such as with addictions and disorders that seem to "control" us. Such is the nature of unresolved unconscious contents. We can become conscious of such connections and take back conscious control.

I think there's a difference between abuse and spanking as a punishment. Sounds to me like you're bringing trauma into this.

baraka

One thing I will agree with is you can't reason with a toddler. Trust me, I've tried! However, I do not spank ( I was never spanked). I have found other methods that seemed to get the point across, such as losing privileges, etc. I always thought it was stupid, but 'time-outs' really work with my 2 year old. Also, losing 'toy' & TV privileges seem to get the point across. I personally don't feel that punishment through 'violence' is healthy in the long run. Just my opinion.