I think there's a difference between abuse and spanking as a punishment. Sounds to me like you're bringing trauma into this.
What is your definition of abuse? To me if you hit me, you are abusing me. It doesn't make much sense to me to amend that idea to a lower standard for our children, of all people--to actually give them a lesser standard than we expect for ourselves, especially given their defenseless, dependent nature. We are their advocates, and I take that role very seriously. I don't see crossing the signals of love/abuse as a good practise, and I feel we see the fallout of doing so widely, all around us in each day.
Where do you think our disorders and dysfunctions spring from? They are not a fluke--they are effects stemming from causes.
Look at the world stage. Have we learned that violence is not the answer? Have we learned to solve our problems using our brains and not our brawn? Have we stopped justifying violence in thought, word and deed? And for the record, I spanked my kids. And when they started experiencing big fallout, I wanted to heal our cycles, and in order to do so, I had to make the tough connections. I had to accept full accountability for my destructive contributions in order to heal my poor patterns and to make amends to them, allowing them freedom from patterns I originally created. It's time to resolve problems and move beyond our band-aid solutions where we continue to perpetuate 2nd rate problem-solving, imo, on all levels.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
What is your definition of abuse? To me if you hit me, you are abusing me. It doesn't make much sense to me to amend that idea to a lower standard for our children, of all people--to actually give them a lesser standard than we expect for ourselves, especially given their defenseless, dependent nature. We are their advocates, and I take that role very seriously. I don't see crossing the signals of love/abuse as a good practise, and I feel we see the fallout of doing so widely, all around us in each day.
Where do you think our disorders and dysfunctions spring from? They are not a fluke--they are effects stemming from causes.
Look at the world stage. Have we learned that violence is not the answer? Have we learned to solve our problems using our brains and not our brawn? Have we stopped justifying violence in thought, word and deed? And for the record, I spanked my kids. And when they started experiencing big fallout, I wanted to heal our cycles, and in order to do so, I had to make the tough connections. I had to accept full accountability for my destructive contributions in order to heal my poor patterns and to make amends to them, allowing them freedom from patterns I originally created. It's time to resolve problems and move beyond our band-aid solutions where we continue to perpetuate 2nd rate problem-solving, imo, on all levels.
Physical abuse is traumatic. You know, in this example, a kid getting the shit kicked out of him/her by an angry out-of-control parent.
A spanking may be dramatic, but i don't believe it is traumatic.
I find it interesting that you don't seem to see a connection between being hit as a child with some of some of the personal issues you've publicly shared on this board. Do you feel certain that being hit by your caregivers as a defenseless child does not contribute to substance abuse issues?
Also, mammasan has shared of his own personal issues publicly on the board, and does not feel that being hit has left residual trauma.
I find this to be interesting if not entirely surprising. We internalise what we are taught is normal, and it's entirely "rational" that we then ACT it out unconsciously--without awareness of it--such as with addictions and disorders that seem to "control" us. Such is the nature of unresolved unconscious contents. We can become conscious of such connections and take back conscious control.
no, i dont. i dont think there is any relation. nor do i think i want to kill my father and fuck my mother. nor do i think anything freud says makes any sense. if anything, it helped me own up to the consequences of substance abuse later in life.
What is your definition of abuse? To me if you hit me, you are abusing me. It doesn't make much sense to me to amend that idea to a lower standard for our children, of all people--to actually give them a lesser standard than we expect for ourselves, especially given their defenseless, dependent nature. We are their advocates, and I take that role very seriously.
Brilliant. I love that. I always hear "I spank, but I don't hit or abuse, blah, blah". You make such a great point. If someone were to walk up and smack you across the mouth because they didn't like what you were saying to them, or you weren't listening to them, is that acceptable? Certainly not. If it isn't acceptable behavior, why would it be one of the early lessons we teach children?
"I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
Brilliant. I love that. I always hear "I spank, but I don't hit or abuse, blah, blah". You make such a great point. If someone were to walk up and smack you across the mouth because they didn't like what you were saying to them, or you weren't listening to them, is that acceptable? Certainly not. If it isn't acceptable behavior, why would it be one of the early lessons we teach children?
cos nobody would smack a kid across the mouth. if my gf smacked me on the ass for saying something offensive, i dont think id be running to the police claiming abuse.
no, i dont. i dont think there is any relation. nor do i think i want to kill my father and fuck my mother. nor do i think anything freud says makes any sense. if anything, it helped me own up to the consequences of substance abuse later in life.
I'm personally not a Freud fan, nor a proponent of his ideas.
I'm going by systems family theory, including co-dependency which underlies substance abuse and myriad other problems of numbing behaviours that help us avoid the paralysed traumas under the surface. And besides the theory, I have personally gone through my own addictions, and disorders one by one and in working to get to the root, have had to delve into the unconscious stuff to the point of resolution. That has included years of facing and FEELING my frozen emotions over those childhood abuses, so that I could release them. This is about practical application.
I fully accept if you make different connections and take your own route.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I'm personally not a Freud fan, nor a proponent of his ideas.
I'm going by systems family theory, including co-dependency which underlies substance abuse and myriad other problems of numbing behaviours that help us avoid the paralysed traumas under the surface. And besides the theory, I have personally gone through my own addictions, and disorders one by one and in working to get to the root, have had to delve into the unconscious stuff to the point of resolution. That has included years of facing and FEELING my frozen emotions over those childhood abuses, so that I could release them. This is about practical application.
I fully accept if you make different connections and take your own route.
my feelings and emotions are not and never have been frozen. nor was i abused as a child. if i broke the rules, i was punished. it was not abuse, and it did not force me to freeze anything. ive also worked to get to the route of my substance abuse, and it had nothing to do with being spanked as a child and everything to do with me being a selfish little shit at times
my feelings and emotions are not and never have been frozen. nor was i abused as a child. if i broke the rules, i was punished. it was not abuse, and it did not force me to freeze anything. ive also worked to get to the route of my substance abuse, and it had nothing to do with being abused and everything to do with me being a selfish little shit at times
Children are egocentric. It is normal that they see through "selfish" eyes. It is about the developmental stages they are in. It is not about shame/bad. When the masses become educated in this, then we will find mass AGE-APPROPRIATE ways to deal with our kids that respect where they are developmentally. And the result will be that our children will grow into respectful balanced adults.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
what about verbal abuse? I've seen many parents yelling things that I feel could/can/will damage a kid in some ways.
I mean, rather give a spanking than calling him/her stupid every day. Now that abuse will last a long time. a spanking is some quick pain then goes away.
Brilliant. I love that. I always hear "I spank, but I don't hit or abuse, blah, blah". You make such a great point. If someone were to walk up and smack you across the mouth because they didn't like what you were saying to them, or you weren't listening to them, is that acceptable? Certainly not. If it isn't acceptable behavior, why would it be one of the early lessons we teach children?
I've known many, many, many spanking parents. And not a one were able to keep from crossing the line where their own indignance and anger that their child acted inappropriately did not clearly channel through their "discipline". It became an outlet for the parents frustrations and anger. So even if we can "rationalise" hitting in theory, the practise is much different. When we give ourselves permission to cross the hitting line, we justify where that takes us. I've seen it happen over, and over and over.....
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
what about verbal abuse? I've seen many parents yelling things that I feel could/can/will damage a kid in some ways.
I mean, rather give a spanking than calling him/her stupid every day. Now that abuse will last a long time. a spanking is some quick pain then goes away.
I agree that ongoing verbal abuse does more harm than all but the most savage beatings.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
The most worrying thing here is how the State is once again trying to intervene into your own personal affair.
Spanking is not good, it's definitly a last resort thing that is definitly showing a lack of ressources from a parent that conduct to this act, but is it criminal??? I don't think so, deplorable yes, criminal no. I've been spanked by my dad on some occasions, and it did not alter my chance to live a normal life in this world, as oppose to a child who's being abused and beaten. Just my two cents...
"L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Children are egocentric. It is normal that they see through "selfish" eyes. It is about the developmental stages they are in. It is not about shame/bad. When the masses become educated in this, then we will find mass AGE-APPROPRIATE ways to deal with our kids that respect where they are developmentally. And the result will be that our children will grow into respectful balanced adults.
i meant i was a selfish little shit when i was a grown up
spanking does not equal bad. instilling shame and guilt and abuse can be just as easily accomplished without spanking. and just spanking does not automatically mean the child is being abused and taught to be ashamed. for the same reason they are selfish at that stage of development, many other forms of discipline can be ineffective. studies have consistently shown that spanking in some situations and under controlled conditions is a very effective means of punishments. more effective than sitting them down and giving them a lecture they wont understand.
yeah, cos kids will all understand that. dyou have kids? you can't reason with them. they're not miniature adults and oftentimes dont understand what they've done wrong. no amount of "cool off" time will make them little logic machines.
I do and I never spanked her and she is a fine pre-teen. You CAN reason with them from very early on, but before they have reasoning capabilities, spanking is not the solution. Once removed from the situation, the 'cooling off 'can be sitting 'on the naughty step' or mat, or whatever place one chooses (the likes of the 'corner' when I was young). Also, removing priviliges is an option. They are not miniature adults and do not become little logic machines, but they soon learn.
The most worrying thing here is how the State is once again trying to intervene into your own personal affair.
Spanking is not good, it's definitly a last resort thing that is definitly showing a lack of ressources from a parent that conduct to this act, but is it criminal??? I don't think so, deplorable yes, criminal no. I've been spanked by my dad on some occasions, and it did not alter my chance to live a normal life in this world, as oppose to a child who's being abused and beaten. Just my two cents...
That's my point. I don't agree with spanking, but some parents might and that is their right. As long as it is not abuse it is no one's business especially the state.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
i meant i was a selfish little shit when i was a grown up
Okay. My apologies--I read that incorrectly. (but was glad to get my schpiel in anyway! )
spanking does not equal bad.
I disagree. I cannot imagine any situation that would warrant sending our children a message that their human boundaries do not deserve respect. There are many discipline methods that teach without crossing human boundary.
instilling shame and guilt and abuse can be just as easily accomplished without spanking.
I agree.
and just spanking does not automatically mean the child is being abused and taught to be ashamed.
Again, I cannot imagine hitting being okay for any reason. It is meant to be constructive and I see it as across the board destructive. It mutes it's own purpose, in my mind.
for the same reason they are selfish at that stage of development, many other forms of discipline can be ineffective.
Therefore our failure to discipline effectively remains always our failure. Let's own it.
studies have consistently shown that spanking in some situations and under controlled conditions is a very effective means of punishments. more effective than sitting them down and giving them a lecture they wont understand.
Show me.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Im a big fan of disciplining your child when he fucks up.
Most parents are fans of disciplining their child when they do something wrong. The question is wether spanking is an appropriate method of discipline.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
Therefore our failure to discipline effectively remains always our failure. Let's own it.
Show me.
so becos prison doesn't deter every murder, we should stop punishing criminals entirely? that's ridiculous. the fact that some disciplinary measures don't work for certain people at certain stages doesn't mean it's some sort of failure, it means people are different and have different mental processes. your way of discipline isn't the only way.
i can't. it was linked on here a while back and i dont care enough to do the research to find it again. it's bad enough i waste my class time posting here, i certainly don't ahve time to research trivial issues like this in an attempt to prove a point to someone who will never acknowledge it anyway. it is enough for me that i know spanking a kid is not going to destroy his or her life. for that matter, i doubt i will ever spank my children anyway. just not my style. that doesn't mean im going to pass judgment on anyone who does as a child abuser and a failure as a parent, as you and others on here are so quick to do.
Most parents are fans of disciplining their child when they do something wrong. The question is wether spanking is an appropriate method of discipline.
imo it is. Im not saying torture the kid or spank him to the poitn of bruising...but a little pain goes a long way.
I am not a fan of spanking, although I did it on a couple of occasions. Once was when I caught my daughter, one or two at the time, playing with the knobs on the stove. It was a reflex, I really didn't think about it ... I was more frightened than angry, and gave her a few quick slaps on the hands and told her to never, never do that again. She cried, wandered off and pouted a bit, then came back and said she was sorry and that she'd never do it again, and to my knowledge she never did.
The other time was a similar situation (in that her safety was at stake) with my other daughter. She'd been testing her limits, playing closer and closer to the edge of the street while watching out of the corner of her eye to see what I would do. Finally she got too close for my comfort and I announced that we were moving all the toys to the back yard, at which point she made a mad dash for the street. I caught her at the curb and gave her two or three smacks on her diapered butt and told her "you run in the street, it's going to hurt, every single time."
Those are the only times I can remember hitting either of them. I'm sure there are other ways I could have handled those situations, but I don't feel like I did them any lasting harm either. In general, I think spanking is unnecessary about 99.9% of the time. I agree with angelica and others who have said we do our kids a disservice when we teach them that violence is a good way to solve problems, and that bullying people smaller than us is an appropriate way to get things done our way.
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
I am not a fan of spanking, although I did it on a couple of occasions. Once was when I caught my daughter, one or two at the time, playing with the knobs on the stove. It was a reflex, I really didn't think about it ... I was more frightened than angry, and gave her a few quick slaps on the hands and told her to never, never do that again. She cried, wandered off and pouted a bit, then came back and said she was sorry and that she'd never do it again, and to my knowledge she never did.
.
Thats the point...that she never did it again. Im proud of you hippie mom.
so becos prison doesn't deter every murder, we should stop punishing criminals entirely? that's ridiculous.
I would equate prison more with a time out. Time out doesn't always work, but considering we cannot control people who choose to make poor choices, we give consequences--we remove their freedoms. Fair enough.
the fact that some disciplinary measures don't work for certain people at certain stages doesn't mean it's some sort of failure, it means people are different and have different mental processes. your way of discipline isn't the only way.
I'm meaning for one's own purposes. For example, if you think hitting your child will stop them from making mistakes and learning and growing in age appropriate ways, go to town. Are your purposes to make them "pay"? Or do you seek to offer them appropriate consequences for the actions?
If my method does not work, and I don't learn from that isn't that about me and my lack of problem solving and lack of resources?
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I would equate prison more with a time out. Time out doesn't always work, but considering we cannot control people who choose to make poor choices, we give consequences--we remove their freedoms. Fair enough.
I'm meaning for one's own purposes. For example, if you think hitting your child will stop them from making mistakes and learning and growing in age appropriate ways, go to town. Are your purposes to make them "pay"? Or do you seek to offer them appropriate consequences for the actions?
If my method does not work, and I don't learn from that isn't that about me and my lack of problem solving and lack of resources?
if i try other things and they dont work, i will try spanking. if that doesn't work, i will stop going it. the purpose being not to make them pay, but to alert them to consequences. like hippiemom's example... a light slap on the hands stopped the child from ever engaging in such dangerous behavior again becos they associated the behavior (rightly so) with its potential for pain.
The other time was a similar situation (in that her safety was at stake) with my other daughter. She'd been testing her limits, playing closer and closer to the edge of the street while watching out of the corner of her eye to see what I would do. Finally she got too close for my comfort and I announced that we were moving all the toys to the back yard, at which point she made a mad dash for the street. I caught her at the curb and gave her two or three smacks on her diapered butt and told her "you run in the street, it's going to hurt, every single time."
I'm curious, is there anybody who thinks hippiemom deserves a $1,000 fine and/or jail time for this action? How easy would it have been for a neighbor to report that? It makes me shiver just thinking about it.
Yes, 99.9% of the time spanking is unecessary, however in this case (and the other) I think it was.
I'm curious, is there anybody who thinks hippiemom deserves a $1,000 fine and/or jail time for this action? How easy would it have been for a neighbor to report that? It makes me shiver just thinking about it.
Yes, 99.9% of the time spanking is unecessary, however in this case (and the other) I think it was.
And therein lies the problem with our government trying run our lives. The bullshit law has nothing to do with protecting children.
if i try other things and they dont work, i will try spanking. if that doesn't work, i will stop going it. the purpose being not to make them pay, but to alert them to consequences. like hippiemom's example... a light slap on the hands stopped the child from ever engaging in such dangerous behavior again becos they associated the behavior (rightly so) with its potential for pain.
I think the problem comes in when people think since a two year old, for example, acts like a two year old, that they must be changed/stopped/controlled. And we just miss the point. In our own ignorance, we miss that it's normal and healthy for them to act like two year olds when that is in fact what they are. Therefore the more education, understanding and awareness we have, the more optimally OUR parenting issues will be managed--ie: with responsible effective parenting.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I'm curious, is there anybody who thinks hippiemom deserves a $1,000 fine and/or jail time for this action? How easy would it have been for a neighbor to report that? It makes me shiver just thinking about it.
Yes, 99.9% of the time spanking is unecessary, however in this case (and the other) I think it was.
Exactly, i'd say that in most case it's mostly a reaction that a parents will (in mose case) regret, but it's not criminal at all. Spanking your kids every day of the week become a criminal act though...
"L'homme est né libre, et partout il est dans les fers"
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Comments
Where do you think our disorders and dysfunctions spring from? They are not a fluke--they are effects stemming from causes.
Look at the world stage. Have we learned that violence is not the answer? Have we learned to solve our problems using our brains and not our brawn? Have we stopped justifying violence in thought, word and deed? And for the record, I spanked my kids. And when they started experiencing big fallout, I wanted to heal our cycles, and in order to do so, I had to make the tough connections. I had to accept full accountability for my destructive contributions in order to heal my poor patterns and to make amends to them, allowing them freedom from patterns I originally created. It's time to resolve problems and move beyond our band-aid solutions where we continue to perpetuate 2nd rate problem-solving, imo, on all levels.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Physical abuse is traumatic. You know, in this example, a kid getting the shit kicked out of him/her by an angry out-of-control parent.
A spanking may be dramatic, but i don't believe it is traumatic.
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no, i dont. i dont think there is any relation. nor do i think i want to kill my father and fuck my mother. nor do i think anything freud says makes any sense. if anything, it helped me own up to the consequences of substance abuse later in life.
Brilliant. I love that. I always hear "I spank, but I don't hit or abuse, blah, blah". You make such a great point. If someone were to walk up and smack you across the mouth because they didn't like what you were saying to them, or you weren't listening to them, is that acceptable? Certainly not. If it isn't acceptable behavior, why would it be one of the early lessons we teach children?
cos nobody would smack a kid across the mouth. if my gf smacked me on the ass for saying something offensive, i dont think id be running to the police claiming abuse.
I'm going by systems family theory, including co-dependency which underlies substance abuse and myriad other problems of numbing behaviours that help us avoid the paralysed traumas under the surface. And besides the theory, I have personally gone through my own addictions, and disorders one by one and in working to get to the root, have had to delve into the unconscious stuff to the point of resolution. That has included years of facing and FEELING my frozen emotions over those childhood abuses, so that I could release them. This is about practical application.
I fully accept if you make different connections and take your own route.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
my feelings and emotions are not and never have been frozen. nor was i abused as a child. if i broke the rules, i was punished. it was not abuse, and it did not force me to freeze anything. ive also worked to get to the route of my substance abuse, and it had nothing to do with being spanked as a child and everything to do with me being a selfish little shit at times
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
I mean, rather give a spanking than calling him/her stupid every day. Now that abuse will last a long time. a spanking is some quick pain then goes away.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Spanking is not good, it's definitly a last resort thing that is definitly showing a lack of ressources from a parent that conduct to this act, but is it criminal??? I don't think so, deplorable yes, criminal no. I've been spanked by my dad on some occasions, and it did not alter my chance to live a normal life in this world, as oppose to a child who's being abused and beaten. Just my two cents...
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
i meant i was a selfish little shit when i was a grown up
spanking does not equal bad. instilling shame and guilt and abuse can be just as easily accomplished without spanking. and just spanking does not automatically mean the child is being abused and taught to be ashamed. for the same reason they are selfish at that stage of development, many other forms of discipline can be ineffective. studies have consistently shown that spanking in some situations and under controlled conditions is a very effective means of punishments. more effective than sitting them down and giving them a lecture they wont understand.
I do and I never spanked her and she is a fine pre-teen. You CAN reason with them from very early on, but before they have reasoning capabilities, spanking is not the solution. Once removed from the situation, the 'cooling off 'can be sitting 'on the naughty step' or mat, or whatever place one chooses (the likes of the 'corner' when I was young). Also, removing priviliges is an option. They are not miniature adults and do not become little logic machines, but they soon learn.
That's my point. I don't agree with spanking, but some parents might and that is their right. As long as it is not abuse it is no one's business especially the state.
I disagree. I cannot imagine any situation that would warrant sending our children a message that their human boundaries do not deserve respect. There are many discipline methods that teach without crossing human boundary.
I agree.
Again, I cannot imagine hitting being okay for any reason. It is meant to be constructive and I see it as across the board destructive. It mutes it's own purpose, in my mind.
Therefore our failure to discipline effectively remains always our failure. Let's own it.
Show me.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Most parents are fans of disciplining their child when they do something wrong. The question is wether spanking is an appropriate method of discipline.
so becos prison doesn't deter every murder, we should stop punishing criminals entirely? that's ridiculous. the fact that some disciplinary measures don't work for certain people at certain stages doesn't mean it's some sort of failure, it means people are different and have different mental processes. your way of discipline isn't the only way.
i can't. it was linked on here a while back and i dont care enough to do the research to find it again. it's bad enough i waste my class time posting here, i certainly don't ahve time to research trivial issues like this in an attempt to prove a point to someone who will never acknowledge it anyway. it is enough for me that i know spanking a kid is not going to destroy his or her life. for that matter, i doubt i will ever spank my children anyway. just not my style. that doesn't mean im going to pass judgment on anyone who does as a child abuser and a failure as a parent, as you and others on here are so quick to do.
imo it is. Im not saying torture the kid or spank him to the poitn of bruising...but a little pain goes a long way.
The other time was a similar situation (in that her safety was at stake) with my other daughter. She'd been testing her limits, playing closer and closer to the edge of the street while watching out of the corner of her eye to see what I would do. Finally she got too close for my comfort and I announced that we were moving all the toys to the back yard, at which point she made a mad dash for the street. I caught her at the curb and gave her two or three smacks on her diapered butt and told her "you run in the street, it's going to hurt, every single time."
Those are the only times I can remember hitting either of them. I'm sure there are other ways I could have handled those situations, but I don't feel like I did them any lasting harm either. In general, I think spanking is unnecessary about 99.9% of the time. I agree with angelica and others who have said we do our kids a disservice when we teach them that violence is a good way to solve problems, and that bullying people smaller than us is an appropriate way to get things done our way.
Thats the point...that she never did it again. Im proud of you hippie mom.
I'm meaning for one's own purposes. For example, if you think hitting your child will stop them from making mistakes and learning and growing in age appropriate ways, go to town. Are your purposes to make them "pay"? Or do you seek to offer them appropriate consequences for the actions?
If my method does not work, and I don't learn from that isn't that about me and my lack of problem solving and lack of resources?
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
if i try other things and they dont work, i will try spanking. if that doesn't work, i will stop going it. the purpose being not to make them pay, but to alert them to consequences. like hippiemom's example... a light slap on the hands stopped the child from ever engaging in such dangerous behavior again becos they associated the behavior (rightly so) with its potential for pain.
Yes, 99.9% of the time spanking is unecessary, however in this case (and the other) I think it was.
And therein lies the problem with our government trying run our lives. The bullshit law has nothing to do with protecting children.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
Exactly, i'd say that in most case it's mostly a reaction that a parents will (in mose case) regret, but it's not criminal at all. Spanking your kids every day of the week become a criminal act though...
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau